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Sonic Mania (August 15th 2017, Christian Whitehead, PS4, Xbox One, PC, Switch) - The New Classic

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32 minutes ago, DarkRula said:

Remixed for the most part, though still recognisable. Which means 3 & Knuckles levels can still happen as they won't be using the original songs.

A remix doesn't change the fact that the composition is still owned by MJ's publishing company. They would have to pay for the rights to remix it, and that's even less likely than just using the original tracks - his estate are incredibly tight with that sort of thing.

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6 hours ago, Celestia said:

I feel like if there was any possibility the Sonic 3 level(s) they plan on including couldn't make it in, they wouldn't have listed it. So either the issues have been worked out, or they simply chose zone(s) that have music they can use without any problems.

Admittedly it's a bit hard to say. On one hand, there's the whole fact that the Sonic 3 mobile remaster pitch Taxman/Stealth pitched, that was rejected. But there's also Stealth personally requested for those managing the Sonic 3 remaster KS to put a lid the campaign for the time being, as well as that one Huffington Post article from earlier this year in which the authors' interviews confirmed Michael Jackson's involvement in Sonic 3's music (I assume if there were any -serious- possible legal repercussions, the article could had been taken down).

I'm likely assuming the latter case is plausible though, just to be on the safe side. Specifically, whose zones that have gotten their original music represented on compilation soundtracks, got their music remixed in later games, or got level remakes in Generations. Which leaves us with Angel Island, Hydrocity, Marble Garden, Mushroom Hill, Flying Battery, Sky Sanctuary, Death Egg, and The Doomsday. Carnival Night, Ice Cap, and Launch Base are presumably off the table for sure, based on their tracks being replaced in Sonic & Knuckles Collection for PC. Meanwhile, Sandopolis, Lava Reef, and Hidden Palace had their music intact on that release; but their music hasn't been (re-)used since, so whether they can be used is anyone's guess.

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21 hours ago, ChikoLad said:

Sonic 4 was more of a Dimps project (the people who make the handheld Sonic platformers since Sonic Advance) than a Sonic Team one.

They had involvement but not much, as far as I'm aware. They would have been developing both Colours and Generations at the time, as well Black Knight, so it doesn't even make sense that they would be doing much on Sonic 4.

IIRC it wasn't ever intended to be called Sonic 4 on Dimp's part, they just wanted to make a 2D sidescroller for consoles and mobile. It was SoA that wanted to call it Sonic 4.

I know all that XD My words were " I think it's going to be better than a Sonic 4 Sonic Team had developed on 1995/1996". In other words, IF Sonic Team had developed Sonic 4 back on 1995/1996, I think it wouldn't have been as good as Sonic Mania :)

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16 minutes ago, Enoshima Junko said:

If there's legal issues about Sonic 3 and Knuckles music tracks being used remixed or not how come Sonic Team got away with Sky Sanctuary in Sonic Generations and Sonic All Stars Racing Transformed?

..... Because there isn't a legal issue with that song?

Not every track has a legal issue, just some of them (Ice Cap, the mini boss theme, Launch Base, some others) because they are composed by Michael Jackson, or people in his organisation, and thus SEGA doesn't own the publishing rights to them - there's no way Michael Jackson would sell SEGA, or anyone else, the exclusive rights to his songs in the early 90's. SEGA owns the rights to songs like Angel Island or Sky Sanctuary because people they employed composed them.

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I believe either Taxman or Stealth have said in an interview that there's a level from Sonic 3, and one from Sonic & Knuckles. So basically, Mania will have a total of 5 re-imagined zones. That's already more zones than Sonic 4 :V

 

Edit: Yes, it was Taxman:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=211224651&postcount=1660

Edited by Jango

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54 minutes ago, Hyp3hat said:

..... Because there isn't a legal issue with that song?

Not every track has a legal issue, just some of them (Ice Cap, the mini boss theme, Launch Base, some others) because they are composed by Michael Jackson, or people in his organisation, and thus SEGA doesn't own the publishing rights to them - there's no way Michael Jackson would sell SEGA, or anyone else, the exclusive rights to his songs in the early 90's. SEGA owns the rights to songs like Angel Island or Sky Sanctuary because people they employed composed them.

This ^

The new songs for Sonic 3 PC version were horrible (Carnival, Ice Cap, Launch Base, Knuckles' Theme and Boss fight theme, IIRC). Such a shame there's no way to get to an agreement for Carnival, Ice Cap and Launch Base (the rest, I wouldn't mind), like a small royalty per game purchase.

Another way would be making new songs for the three zones, but this time three themes that were nice, unlike the PC ones. Hey, they could hire the guy that's making the Sonic Mania Soundtrack!

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Just now, molul said:

This ^

The new songs for Sonic 3 PC version were horrible (Carnival, Ice Cap, Launch Base, Knuckles' Theme and Boss fight theme, IIRC). Such a shame there's no way to get to an agreement for Carnival, Ice Cap and Launch Base (the rest, I wouldn't mind), like a small royalty per game purchase.

Another way would be making new songs for the three zones, but this time three themes that were nice, unlike the PC ones. Hey, they could hire the guy that's making the Sonic Mania Soundtrack!

That's how it works for radio/streaming and digital/physical sales, but licensing for media like movies or videogames works differently - As far as I'm aware, with something like releasing music on a DVD, publishing companies dictate much higher rates, and have to be paid in advance. This is why live DVDs are less common, or have less tracks, than live albums.

Doing some reading up on this (because I have nothing better to do today), what seems the most likely scenario is that SEGA had a contract with MJ's publishing that covered the initial release of S3&K - we don't know enough to ascertain whether the total ditching of certain MJ songs from Sonic 3, like the end credits, in & Knuckles was either legal necessity or an artistic decision. However, the fact that you can still purchase S3&K in an emulated state suggests that SEGA negotiated the rights to distribute the material in its original state (the Megadrive cartridge) in perpetuity.

The problem appears to be that they have to negotiate terms for a re-release, and either MJ's estate have either flat out refused them or asked for a rate so high that SEGA can't afford to pay it and still make money on a re-release.

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Maybe I'm a minority here (or not), but I actually prefer some of the PC Collection tracks over the Genesis ones :P

Like Carnival Night (especially Act 2):

 

And Launch Base, always had that military feel, you know?

 

As for Ice Cap, hell no, the Genesis version is waaay superior. The PC Collection sounds more like a snow carnival or something like that.

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22 minutes ago, Enoshima Junko said:

Geez, sorry for asking and wanting to pursue further knowledge.

but thank you anyway for the reason that followed.

NP, sorry if I came across as sarcastic. 

If you're looking for a full breakdown, I watched this earlier and it breaks it down zone by zone

 It's missing one thing, which is the similarity between Ice Cap and Smooth Criminal, which have similar descending chord patterns. And his team don't appear to have had any involvement in S3&K. 

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It seems possible that, based on the hint that Green Hill is the most familiar revisited zone, should any of the three (maybe two, Carnival night seems unlikely due to Studiopolis) otherwise unavailable zones from Sonic 3 be part of the game, they may be different enough from the original zones that it might make sense for them to have completely new music from Tee! 

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Sonic & Knuckles Collection on the PC was actually my first, and, for many years, only encounter with S3&K, so I have a pretty lenient attitude towards its music.  It doesn't seem like Sega agrees, though, considering that they don't seem to have used the PC tracks since but would rather not rerelease S3&K at all.  As such, I would expect we'd be getting one of the zones where the music has no legal repercussions - and I could live with the stages on offer under that scenario, honestly.

Actually, call it blasphemy, but I never saw what was so great about Ice Cap.  If I were on the Mania team, I'd want to do a new ice level entirely.

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7 hours ago, Jango said:

I believe either Taxman or Stealth have said in an interview that there's a level from Sonic 3, and one from Sonic & Knuckles. So basically, Mania will have a total of 5 re-imagined zones. That's already more zones than Sonic 4 :V

Edit: Yes, it was Taxman:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=211224651&postcount=1660

Thanks. I'd forgotten Taxman said this. It's reassuring Sonic 3 will finally get some much deserved love!

Regarding which stage they could choose from Sonic 3; I think we can rule out Angel Island (because we already have Green Hill) and Launch Base. I'd rule out Carnival Night because Studiopolis already has pinball stages gimmicks like 'pinball bumpers'. So I think either Hydrocity, Marble Garden or Ice Cap will be the remade stage.

Personally I hope it's Ice Cap. Hydrocity is a fantastic-massive stage in Sonic 3 (maybe my favorite underwater stage) and I don't really know what StealthTax could do to make it even better in Mania. Whereas whilst Ice Cap is a good level - popular because of the music and snowboarding sequence - but it still felt like the weakest stage in Sonic 3. I'd like to see a snow-themed level in Mania and Ice Cap would be a good choice.

With regards to the PC music, I'm a fan of both acts of Ice Cap and act2 of Launch Base (act1 doesn't do much for me). If we ever get Sonic 3 remastered then I would expect them to include both the Mega-Drive and PC soundtracks so we could choose between the two, just llike how both the Jp & US soundtracks were included in Sonic CD remastered.

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To be honest, the problem I have with the PC Collection's tracks I've heard is that while they might fit the general theme of the stage, they don't strike me as actually fitting the actual stage as I know it.  Like that music for Carnival Night Act 2, for example.  That's a perfectly good song for a carnival level, but I struggle to connect it to Carnival Night because I've never thought of Carnival Night as being that happy.  The same goes for the Ice Cap song.  Good ice level music, it's just not Ice Cap.

I fully understand and am willing to accept that they might need to replace the original songs that I remember, I just want them to come up with replacements that convey the same general tone as the originals.

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Icecap/Carnival Night/Launch Base are better in the PC version, Competition/S3 Credits/Knuckles's theme are better in the Genesis version

I don't care for Genesis Icecap whatsoever. It's the MM2 Wily Castle of the Sonic series. It's okay but I can think of at least 100 other songs I like more

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Launch Base Zone Genesis was better than Ice Cap Zone Genesis anyway. Carnival Night Zone being better than both. Of course they don't have to use any of these zones, with the terrible music and all. They have 13 other zones to pick from.

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I never thought so many people would defend PC alternative tracks :) I don't mean to offend anyone but, apart from the quality (which is a subjective thing), don't they sound like they don't fit with the rest of the soundtrack?

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I'd prefer completely new music for the Sonic 3&K zones if they use the zones that have legal music problems. Am not a fan of the Sonic 3&K PC exclusive music... and that's coming from somebody not extremely picky when it comes to music. I will say tho I love the Ice cap AKA Sonic 3&K version of Hard Times. x3

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I do wonder if the possible music issues with the MJ estate were the cause of the Sonic & Knuckles PC Collection differences in certain music tracks. The game collection uses a form of emulation for both the games and music. Its generally assumed the MIDI and FM synth music options on the PC at the time wouldnt have handled the digital effects present in the original versions of the replaced music, the voice samples and what not. Hense the replacement music.

If Sega was allowed to sell emulated versions of the games since the case became known such as on Steam, and in Sonic Mega Collection, as well as Ultimate Mega Drive Collection, then the PC Collection should have fallen under the same category and been fine right?

Even if it was classed as a rebuild or reissue of sorts, bringing the music into question, then I would still be confused as Sonic Jam came out a year later and the games in that collection are well known for being rebuilt using Saturn code and aren't emulated, also adding extras like time trials, different difficulties etc, but the music on that release is untouched.

To me it seems it was more about the PC sound card difficulties at the time more than issues with the MJ estate. Tho these days they are obviously having issues in that regard.

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2 hours ago, Tenko said:

Even if it was classed as a rebuild or reissue of sorts, bringing the music into question, then I would still be confused as Sonic Jam came out a year later and the games in that collection are well known for being rebuilt using Saturn code and aren't emulated, also adding extras like time trials, different difficulties etc, but the music on that release is untouched.

To me it seems it was more about the PC sound card difficulties at the time more than issues with the MJ estate. Tho these days they are obviously having issues in that regard.

Actually, Jam and the PC release came out in the same year with the PC released a couple of months before. I don't know what to make of that at all.

The only thing I can say to that is, if it was a question of soundcards being unable to handle samples... why not just re-record the original songs, instead of wholly new pieces of music? 

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I've signed up and made an account here just because of this discussion on Sonic 3. It's really silly to see this misinformation about Michael Jackson STILL being spread.

First of all, Ice Cap isn't even written by Jackson. We know for a fact he has nothing to do with it. 

It's a Genesis version of the song 'Hard Times' by the Jetzons, which was performed by a band which Buxer was a part of. Whilst Buxer was a collaborator of Jackson, 'Hard Times' was made well before he worked with Jackson.

If Ice Cap has any problems with copyright, it has nothing to do with Jackson.

Also, virtually all SEGA staff state that Jackson was originally going to work on Sonic 3, but then never got around to putting his ideas into the game (either because of unhappiness with the card chip, the child molestation charges or both). Only Buxer sometimes contradicts that story, and he has no idea if anything even made it into the game because he has never even played Sonic 3.

As for the credits theme, which is what fans point to as definitive proof, that could have just been written by Buxer, and then have been incorporated into 'Stranger in Moscow' unknowingly by Jackson (if we believe Buxer that he was an uncredited co-songwriter for that track, which is a logical leap in itself). 

Even the tune in Carnival Night, that sounds like a two second sample from Jackson's Jam, was probably put into the game by Buxer. It's a completely tiny section of the overall song and has nothing to do with the composition. Jam was also recorded in 1991, so it predates Sonic 3. Anyone could have put that sample into Carnival Night. 

Also think about this logically, If SEGA really does have problems with the copyright, it really makes no sense that Sonic 3 can be downloaded from all major digital outlets. It would be pulled from download altogether, similar to the Marvel vs Capcom series. 

If Sonic 3 does have copyright problems with the music, it's almost certainly due to Buxer or someone else and has nothing to do with Jackson. There's literally no evidence that Jackson did any of the songs for Sonic 3.

The truth is, Jackson's a big name and people like to attribute a fun urban myth to Sonic 3. But that is all it is, an urban myth. There is absolutely zero concrete evidence that Jackson had anything to do with Sonic's 3 soundtrack. 

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