Sonic Mania (August 15th 2017, Christian Whitehead, PS4, Xbox One, PC, Switch) - The New Classic

[Milo]

42 minutes ago, Manticore said:

The truth is, Jackson's a big name and people like to attribute a fun urban myth to Sonic 3. But that is all it is, an urban myth. There is absolutely zero concrete evidence that Jackson had anything to do with Sonic's 3 soundtrack. 

It's not an urban myth. This Huffington Post article posted earlier this year features the writer getting in contact with Brad Buxer, Doug Grigsby III and Cirocco Jones (all of them were part of Jackson's music team at the time; and are listed for music composition in Sonic 3's credits, even though Jackson himself isn't). All three of them in the article collectively describe not only Jackson's involvement, but also how Jackson got involved into the game's development, how they composed the music, and some of the specific cues/compositions they made that made it into the game. Roger Hector (former director of STI, where Sonic 3 was developed by Sonic Team) and Brad Buxer are both on record for mentioning the involvement of Jackson and his team working on the game in the past as well.

[Manticore]

30 minutes ago, Gabe said:

It's not an urban myth. This Huffington Post article posted earlier this year features the writer getting in contact with Brad Buxer, Doug Grigsby III and Cirocco Jones (all of them were part of Jackson's music team at the time; and are listed for music composition in Sonic 3's credits, even though Jackson himself isn't). All three of them in the article collectively describe not only Jackson's involvement, but also how Jackson got involved into the game's development, how they composed the music, and some of the specific cues/compositions they made that made it into the game. Roger Hector (former director of STI, where Sonic 3 was developed by Sonic Team) and Brad Buxer are both on record for mentioning the involvement of Jackson and his team working on the game in the past as well.

I've read that Huffington Post Article, none of those people specifically say what music made it into Sonic 3, they don't list tracks. Brad Buxer has even previously said that he had no idea what made it in because he never played Sonic 3.

The one which people assume there is evidence for is the Credits theme, because Buxer claims that he was an uncredited co-songwriter for Stranger in Moscow and that the song served as the basis for that song. However, we have no idea if Buxer wrote the Credits theme, and then Jackson worked on Buxer's template or if Jackson wrote the credit theme himself and then Buxer helped him to finalise Stranger in Moscow. Buxer isn't clear. He just said that he co-wrote Stranger in Moscow and that the Credits in Sonic 3 serve as the template for Jackson's song. And again, Buxer isn't credited as a songwriter for Stranger in Moscow, we are going off his word.

As for Jacksons' music making it into the game, there's conflicting reports.

Whilst these three claim that Jackson's work made it in, but never say which tracks, STI claim that none of his music made it in because his contract never got that far. This includes Roger Hector, who has gone on record that Jackson's music never made it into Sonic 3. It includes numerous other members. 

There is no concrete evidence that any of MJ's music made it in. It's also a logical leap to assume that this music is causing problems for re-releasing the game or reimagining it's music when it's still being sold digitally on every major digital download store. 

It's pretty clear that Jackson worked on Sonic 3 to some extent, but it's very unlikely that his music actually went into the game.

[Milo]

2 hours ago, Manticore said:

There is no concrete evidence that any of MJ's music made it in.

It's pretty clear that Jackson worked on Sonic 3 to some extent, but it's very unlikely that his music actually went into the game.

This was not your initial argument. You said there's no concrete evidence that Michael Jackson had any involvement in Sonic 3's music. Even if there are conflicting reports on how Jackson was involved and to what extent, none of the sources I listed actually dispute that Jackson was involved in the game's development in any capacity. Whether Jackson's work made it into the game is a different argument; and while you go down that track if you want (speaking of which, I'll get to that in a bit), that wasn't what your original post was stating.

2 hours ago, Manticore said:

I've read that Huffington Post Article, none of those people specifically say what music made it into Sonic 3, they don't list tracks. Brad Buxer has even previously said that he had no idea what made it in because he never played Sonic 3.

The one which people assume there is evidence for is the Credits theme, because Buxer claims that he was an uncredited co-songwriter for Stranger in Moscow and that the song served as the basis for that song. However, we have no idea if Buxer wrote the Credits theme, and then Jackson worked on Buxer's template or if Jackson wrote the credit theme himself and then Buxer helped him to finalise Stranger in Moscow. Buxer isn't clear. He just said that he co-wrote Stranger in Moscow and that the Credits in Sonic 3 serve as the template for Jackson's song. And again, Buxer isn't credited as a songwriter for Stranger in Moscow, we are going off his word.

From the Huffington Post article:

"But Ben Mallison and his fellow Blues are right, Buxer says: The melody that appears in the end credits is also in Jackson's single "Stranger in Moscow." The Sonic song was written before Buxer and Jackson "ever started working on" the single, Buxer said. The chorus hook for "Hard Times," a song Buxer had written for a band he was in, was also repurposed for Sonic, he said. "These cues are all over the Internet," he said. "People have accurately matched the songs to the cues."

Both Hard Times and Stranger in Moscow are listed by Buxer as references.

And as for whether Buxer was or wasn't credited for Moscow; I don't know why this specific bit is serving as some sort of tie-breaker proof on whether Jackson was involved  or whether if his work went into the game as you're framing it to be. Given how Buxer has confirmed the associations by fans of certain music to Hard Times are true, and how people other than Buxer have been confirmed Jackson's involvement in the music, it's not like people who are taking Buxer's word for it on him working on the song are doing so on an entirely unfounded basis. Even if they are assumptions by those who believed he was involved, at least they have some relatively tangible sources to support their case. Pointing out he was uncredited for the song and some sources that don't agree as to how Jackson was involved doesn't exactly make for a decisive rebuttal from the opposing side of the argument.

2 hours ago, Manticore said:

It's also a logical leap to assume that this music is causing problems for re-releasing the game or reimagining it's music when it's still being sold digitally on every major digital download store.

It's not on every major digital store. You can't get it on PlayStation Network (PS3) or mobile devices (iOS/Android), and it is not part of M2's 3D Classics Collection for the Nintendo 3DS. Whereas Sonic 1 and 2 are available in all three cases, and Sonic CD is available for the former two. And all three of specific re-releases for the game happened after the last re-release for Sonic 3&K (the Steam port in January 2011).

It's also the only main series console Sonic game from Sonic Team to not have a (genuine) release of the original soundtrack: disc, digital or otherwise. Every other major Sonic Team Sonic game has (unless you want to count Sonic 3D: Flickies Island, though that can be argued to be a spinoff). Even certain spinoff games like Sonic R and the Storybook games; as well as Dimps digital/handheld games like Sonic 4 and Rush, have had their OSTs released.

The Sonic & Knuckles PC Collection replaces a handful of tracks in Sonic 3 with original compositions, which marks one of the few times a Sonic game has had its original music replaced. The only other two games to have this happen to them are Sonic CD (which had the entire original EU/JP OST replaced with a new soundtrack for the American release, both of which are available to select for the 2011 Sonic CD re-release and were released on disc) and the aforementioned Sonic 3D: Flickies' Island (whose Genesis OST was replaced when the game was ported to the Saturn).

And for what it's worth, Taxman and Stealth, who are responsible for the Sonic 1/2/CD mobile releases,made a pitch to make a mobile version for the game (which they later presented online), but they were turned down by Sega. Stealth in particular also suggested to a group who made a petition to Sega to greenlighting their Sonic 3 mobile pitch, to suspend their campaign for the time being.

In light of the above, I don't see how it's a stretch by the imagination of any sort to conclude the game might have some legal barriers from Sega from doing another re-release of the game, or remixing/reusing certain music tracks.

[Manticore]

43 minutes ago, Gabe said:

This was not your initial argument. You said there's no concrete evidence that Michael Jackson had any involvement in Sonic 3's music.

I meant that there is no concrete evidence that his music made it in. We all know that Jackson was approached to do the soundtrack.

But I checked my original post and it wasn't clear, fair enough.

43 minutes ago, Gabe said:

From the Huffington Post article:

"But Ben Mallison and his fellow Blues are right, Buxer says: The melody that appears in the end credits is also in Jackson's single "Stranger in Moscow." The Sonic song was written before Buxer and Jackson "ever started working on" the single, Buxer said. The chorus hook for "Hard Times," a song Buxer had written for a band he was in, was also repurposed for Sonic, he said. "These cues are all over the Internet," he said. "People have accurately matched the songs to the cues."

Both Hard Times and Stranger in Moscow are listed by Buxer as references.

And as I've said, this is literally the only song that has been claimed to have made it into Sonic 3. And as I've shown, it's doubtful that Jackson worked on the Credits music. Even in this Huffington Post article, Buxer isn't clear whether he wrote the credits theme or Jackson did. All he says is that the credits theme served as the base for Stranger in Moscow. It's entirely possible that Buxer wrote the credits music, and then Jackson worked with him on that template for Stranger in Moscow.

Buxer just isn't clear. 

But this stuff is impossible to prove either way. So we'll have to agree to differ here.

In all honesty, I'm most irritated by the claim (that people generally make, not you specifically) that Sonic 3 gets cautiously released and treated due to its music. 

43 minutes ago, Gabe said:

It's not on every major digital store. You can't get it on PlayStation Network (PS3) or mobile devices (iOS/Android), and it is not part of M2's 3D Classics Collection for the Nintendo 3DS. Whereas Sonic 1 and 2 are available in all three cases, and Sonic CD is available for the former two. And all three of specific re-releases for the game happened after the last re-release for Sonic 3&K (the Steam port in January 2011).

It's also the only main series console Sonic game from Sonic Team to not have a (genuine) release of the original soundtrack: disc, digital or otherwise. Every other major Sonic Team Sonic game has (unless you want to count Sonic 3D: Flickies Island, though that can be argued to be a spinoff). Even certain spinoff games like Sonic R and the Storybook games; as well as Dimps digital/handheld games like Sonic 4 and Rush, have had their OSTs released.

It is on the Xbox Live Arcade, Steam and (was on) the Wii Store until the Wii Store was taken down. Case in point, it makes absolutely no sense for the game to still be available on these stores (especially Steam) if it was (and still is) caught up in legal complications.

Take Marvel Vs Capcom, it has legal problems now and is impossible to buy and has been taken down from all stores. Sonic 3 has never been taken down from a store. Why is that, if it is a legal minefield?

As for the lack of modern releases and soundtracks, Sonic 3 is simply less popular than other classic Sonic titles. It sold considerably less than Sonic 1 and Sonic 2. I love Sonic 3, but that's the reality. I'm not claiming that this is  the absolute reason why it hasn't happened, but it's possible. 

43 minutes ago, Gabe said:

The Sonic & Knuckles PC Collection replaces a handful of tracks in Sonic 3 with original compositions, which marks one of the few times a Sonic game has had its original music replaced. The only other two games to have this happen to them are Sonic CD (which had the entire original EU/JP OST replaced with a new soundtrack for the American release, both of which are available to select for the 2011 Sonic CD re-release and were released on disc) and the aforementioned Sonic 3D: Flickies' Island (whose Genesis OST was replaced when the game was ported to the Saturn).

This is often used as a smoking gun by people, and it seems very strong, but it isn't clear cut.

The music was most likely replaced because the the SAKPC Collection MIDI format could not adapt the sound effects of the original songs. Similar to how you say that Sonic 3Ds soundtrack was changed. 

Also note that the game has never had its soundtrack changed on multiple releases, where they kept the original sound in-check. If they had to redo the songs for legal reasons, it makes no sense that they have sold the game digitally, and in compilations, since and it has never been a problem. 

43 minutes ago, Gabe said:

And for what it's worth, Taxman and Stealth, who are responsible for the Sonic 1/2/CD mobile releases,made a pitch to make a mobile version for the game (which they later presented online), but they were turned down by Sega. Stealth in particular also suggested to a group who made a petition to Sega to greenlighting their Sonic 3 mobile pitch, to suspend their campaign for the time being.

And to be honest, I just imagine that this is because they have no plans for it. You can literally buy it from Steam now. It's not like they cannot sell the game due to the soundtrack.

TL:DR

It's possible Jackson may have had some involvement with the music, although I think it is unlikely.

It is implausible that SEGA have difficulty selling or using aspects of the game due to its soundtrack. 

[Nepenthe]

The Mania topic isn't the place to debate about Sonic 3's soundtrack.

[LargoDELLZ]

From the looks of Sonic Mania so far, it could possibly top Sonic 3 and Knuckles as my favourite Sonic game. Everything about it looks amazing and I would buy this instantly day one... But I don't have an Xbox One or a PS4. :| 

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

3 hours ago, LargoDELLZ said:

From the looks of Sonic Mania so far, it could possibly top Sonic 3 and Knuckles as my favourite Sonic game. Everything about it looks amazing and I would buy this instantly day one... But I don't have an Xbox One or a PS4. :| 

You can't use a PC?

Also, has anyone thought of the possibility of there being new elemental shields in this game? That would be pretty rockin'.

[Celestia]

That would be neat, though I wonder what abilities they would have. Not just the midair actions only Sonic can use, but the secondary effects (like how electric protects you from electricity and also attracts Rings). What would, say, an air elemental shield do?

[Indigo Rush]

1 minute ago, Celestia said:

What would, say, an air elemental shield do?

Bring back the insta-shield

[Diogenes]

11 minutes ago, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

Also, has anyone thought of the possibility of there being new elemental shields in this game? That would be pretty rockin'.

This is a suggestion that comes up pretty regularly, but I've never heard any suggestions for new shields that feel like solid additions. The three existing ones already cover the most fundamental movements (one makes you go up, one makes you go down, one makes you go sideways), and all the suggestions I've seen either feel overcomplicated or wander away from the shared theme of movement because of it.

[Indigo Rush]

The only ideas I could come up with were rock shields that take two hits to be destroyed and give Sonic a stomp ability, and an ice shield that lets you walk on water and hover in the air like a snowflake, but aside from those contextual utilities, I can't think of much else to justify them.

Standard, Fire, Bubble and Thunder are a good set. I think we're good.

[StaticMania]

A monitor that lets you store a single shield is all the revolution this new game needs...maybe it also lets you switch between them, because why not? No new shield suggestion would be satisfactory.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

I kinda like the shield I've seen in fangames that make it so spike related dangers don't hurt you.

[StaticMania]

That's too situational and since this isn't a Dimps developed game, spiky hazards are a lot less likely to occur. The primary ability of that shield: basically the stomp/quick drop isn't that useful either, the bubble shield already has the advantage that could've possibly had.

[Salamander]

I get the impression that Mania is more about uniting old elements from multiple separate classic games than it is about going out and inventing new ones.

[Ajavalo]

The Drop Dash would like to have a word with you.

If there are any other new items/mechanics, I don't at all expect a new shield type, it'll be too much of a hassle. But, would you like it if the Thunder Shield could 'zap' underwater enemies upon losing it on contact with the water?

Edited August 6, 2016 by Ajavalo

[TheOcelot]

So......I had the pleasure of playing Green Hill from Sonic Mania at Summer of Sonic. A few hours later I played through Studiopolis. Soon as I sat down and put the headphones on (so that I could hear the music) I was blown away by just how good the music sounds. We all know it sounds good from the gameplay footage we've seen, but fuck me it sounds even more impressive when you are actually playing the game! This will give Sonic CD's soundtracks a run for their money!

Green Hill

I made sure that I tested all the moves to see how Sonic feels and performs. It took me - and I'm not even exaggerating when I say this - 10 seconds to be perfectly at home with the controls. The momentum physics are superb, spot-on just like the classics. Sonic moves fluidly both in the air and on the ground akin to how he feels in Sonic 3. The spindash works just like in Sonic 3 in how the more you rev it up the faster Sonic moves upon release. The Spindash is a bit more powerful in Mania and I loved using it.

The drop-dash is very easy to use. You press and hold the jump-button in mid-air and keep it held down until Sonic hits the ground which then unleashes the drop-dash effect. It's a nice move (the animation kind of reminds me of the original charge-up spindash in Sonic CD). Something to note is that the drop-dash appears to release at the same speed regardless of how long you have held down the jump button whilst in the air. 

Green Hill's design is impressive. I made sure I explored as much as I could. I went up high and explored below where parts of the stage take designs from the underground section from act2 from Green Hill in Sonic 1. It's clear that a lot of thought has gone into making the new layout in GH as unique as possible. None of the new layout felt like a rehash.

The elemental shields work as you expect. Feels like you can move with the bubble shield a bit more easily than in Sonic 3. I found a few of the hidden giant silver rings. I love the animations of the normal shield, when Sonic is invincible and the sparkles you get when Sonic collects rings. There is an invincibility box shortly before the boss fight which makes it a walk in the park.

Sonic's animations; when he balances over an edge, when he looks up and the victory punch in the air when he finished the act look so cute . The gameplay appeared to run at a rock-solid 60fps.

I actually received praise from one of the staff members who was watching me. I finished the act with 289 rings (didn't get hit once) and he said I had the highest score out of anyone so far who had played GH. Wish I had taken a screenshot to show you guys my score!

Studiopolis

The music track in this act sounds so good. The level is very bright (has a Sonic CD good future kind of vibe). The Eggman dancing animation is really cool. There are lots of multiple routes.

The stage often likes to push you through fast. I resisted the urge to just speed through and by taking my time found some high up routes which I didn't see any other players find (you can use the powerful spindash to good effect). It's got plenty of gimmicks but the stage does flow nicely. Once I beat the act (had about 140 rings) I just wanted to play more!

Mania feels like a combination of Sonic CD/Chaotix superb visuals but with much better level design and Sonic 3's excellent control.

It was an absolute pleasure to play Sonic Mania and I am confident it's going to be an excellent game, that it will be well received. I really believe you guys are going to love it.

 

EDIT: I forgot to mention. They announced at SoS that there is going to be an optional mode in Mania where you can have a "CRT filter complete with scan-lines" which will make the game feel/give the visual appearance as if you were playing it in the early 90's.

 

[TrueBlue]

Thanks for the write-up!

 

Has anyone checked whether or not Sonic bails out if you stand still for 3 mins ala CD?

[ChikoLad]

I also attended SoS and played Sonic Mania. Here's a picture I took as I was approaching the front of the queue (IIRC you were allowed to take picture from within the queue or outside of it, you just couldn't take up close pictures while playing or have a video filmed since that takes time and there was over 1,000 eager Sonic fans there to play it).

I only got to play Studiopolis Zone, and I honestly can't say much beyond what was said before. The visuals are amazing, the music is jammin', the level design was superb, and the controls were sublime!

As soon as the level booted up, I immediately tried the Drop Dash. It does work both from a jump, or after you've launched off something in ball form without jumping, IIRC. Basically, as long you are in ball form and have no elemental shields, you can use it. One thing I really like about it is that you can jump into a half-pipe, do the Drop Dash into the middle of it, and then keep holding down to watch Sonic slowly build up momentum. It's a small thing, but it's fun. Holding down the jump button in the air to rev it up feels satisfying and intuitive.

I really like how Studiopolis Zone is laid out. It's a huge level, that you could easily spend over 10 minutes exploring. Very like a Sonic CD level in a way. However, you are always given an easy way to push forward if you want to just head for the goal, whether it be some sort of platform, spring, or some kind of slope (this is why I compare it to Sonic CD more than S3&K, as S3&K didn't always make it easy or fluid for Sonic to get around to higher places, that was more for Tails and Knuckles). I sort of did a mix of both. I mostly explored and took my time, but when I got into a good rhythm, I would speed ahead, and the game was fun and satisfying in both ways. The level wasn't super tough or anything, but there were enough enemies and obstacles to make it so that it wasn't just "hold right to win" or anything, and you did have to pay attention. I completed it in 3-4 minutes, IIRC. Overall, the game definitely just feels just like the Classics, but with a few little details that are improved that make it even more fun to play. As long as most of the levels remain fun and engaging then yeah, this has easy potential to be the definitive Classic Sonic experience.

Also, a small thing I really like - does anyone else have a tendency to bop Sonic about by rapidly pressing up and/or down on the D-pad when they are waiting on moving platforms, or do it to the beat of the song? Well, I tend to do that a lot in Classic Sonic games, so I ended up doing it here when waiting on platforms. And the improved animation makes it so much more fun to do! If you press up to the beat of the song in this game, the improved animation actually legitimately makes it look like Sonic is bopping his head, almost as if the animators were aware of this habit some people have and animated the first few frames of Sonic's "look up" animation to look like a head bop when played back and forth. It had me laughing as I was playing, that's such a cool detail!

And finally, here is a photo of a full "official" queue for the game. It was like this all day and you would usually have a ton more people queuing up outside the official one!

[TheOcelot]

21 minutes ago, TrueBlue said:

Thanks for the write-up!

 

Has anyone checked whether or not Sonic bails out if you stand still for 3 mins ala CD?

I didn't have time to check this as our playtime at SoS was limited. I'm pretty certain you won't be able to bail-out "I'm outta here" in Mania. Getting a game over just because you don't move for 3 minutes is a bit annoying, haha.

If I recall correctly you couldn't actually do this in the 2011 remaster of Sonic CD, only in the original version.

[Jango]

Thanks for the write-up!

 

Has anyone checked whether or not Sonic bails out if you stand still for 3 mins ala CD?

I didn't have time to check this as our playtime at SoS was limited. I'm pretty certain you won't be able to bail-out "I'm outta here" in Mania. Getting a game over just because you don't move for 3 minutes is a bit annoying, haha.

If I recall correctly you couldn't actually do this in the 2011 remaster of Sonic CD, only in the original version.

It happens in the 2011 remaster D:

Nice preview guys, I wish a public demo come out soon, I NEED this ??

[SonicFreak94]

One thing I can say I am thankful for the pc support.

[Sonikko]

39 minutes ago, reflection_of said:

One thing I can say I am thankful for the pc support.

I was wondering, does the PC release of Mania open up possibilities for the 2011 Remasters of Sonic 1 and 2 to be released on Steam and Console or not?

[ChikoLad]

20 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

I was wondering, does the PC release of Mania open up possibilities for the 2011 Remasters of Sonic 1 and 2 to be released on Steam and Console or not?

Likely not, but it's possible.

I could see it happening if they make enough money from Mania. IIRC, the main reason they aren't on anything other than mobile is for budgeting reasons, since it is more expensive to put them on Steam and consoles. However, maybe what money they make with Mania could make it possible.

[molul]

On 6/8/2016 at 10:42 AM, FFWF said:

I get the impression that Mania is more about uniting old elements from multiple separate classic games than it is about going out and inventing new ones.

There's not much new stuff apart from the drop dash so far, yes. 

I think the only game that actually went serious on adding new stuff was Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Bonus stages apart from the special stage,  elemental shields, mid bosses, stage transformations, cutscenes... Sonic 2 was a light evolution compared to Sonic 3.

I'm fine if Sonic Mania doesn't innovate as much. There's a lot of stuff to be brought back already. Drop dash could be more than enough : )