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Sonic Mania (August 15th 2017, Christian Whitehead, PS4, Xbox One, PC, Switch) - The New Classic

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3 minutes ago, Pixel said:

It's very likely considering that he's consistently been making every conceivable obscure reference to the Classic titles he can, going as far as to reincorporate beta animations. 

Considering his track record, it would honestly be more unexpected that Hyper Forms don't appear (even if the Super Emeralds don't). The Hyper Forms just fit right into what he's been previously doing.

You keep hammering on the animations, but that's a completely different matter. Reusing an old animation is nothing more than a cute visual reference, there's no greater effect than that. Super emeralds and hyper forms, on the other hand, have both gameplay and story consequences. Including them in the game raises the question of why they've never appeared anywhere else and makes Super Sonic feel less significant since it's no longer Sonic at his strongest. It also requires extra work to make 7 more special stages and to program the Hyper forms' abilities, as well as to test it all. And considering they seem dedicated to one-button gameplay, Hyper Sonic's dash would have to override the drop dash, and I'm not sure how comfortable they'd be overriding the new unique ability they've made for him.

I'm not saying that Hyper forms are definitely out, but there's plenty of reasons for them to decide not to include them, and no reason to assume they'll be in.

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4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

You keep hammering on the animations, but that's a completely different matter. Reusing an old animation is nothing more than a cute visual reference, there's no greater effect than that. Super emeralds and hyper forms, on the other hand, have both gameplay and story consequences. Including them in the game raises the question of why they've never appeared anywhere else and makes Super Sonic feel less significant since it's no longer Sonic at his strongest. It also requires extra work to make 7 more special stages and to program the Hyper forms' abilities, as well as to test it all. And considering they seem dedicated to one-button gameplay, Hyper Sonic's dash would have to override the drop dash, and I'm not sure how comfortable they'd be overriding the new unique ability they've made for him.

I'm not saying that Hyper forms are definitely out, but there's plenty of reasons for them to decide not to include them, and no reason to assume they'll be in.

It fits with their constant references to obscure aspects of Classic Sonic is the point.

But we'll only know for sure when Mania releases.

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The Super Emeralds/Hyper forms don't even really qualify as obscure, though; they were fairly significant mechanics in a popular main-series game, they've just been abandoned. They're not on the same level as an animation that never actually got used or characters that never appeared in a major game.

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Just now, Diogenes said:

The Super Emeralds/Hyper forms don't even really qualify as obscure, though; they were fairly significant mechanics in a popular main-series game, they've just been abandoned. They're not on the same level as an animation that never actually got used or characters that never appeared in a major game.

They obscure so far as they've only ever been used as a secret unlockable when you lock Sonic 3 to Sonic and Knuckles, and have never been referred to ever since then.

That's pretty damn obscure to me. Far more obscure than Fang the Sniper, who's very possibly cameoing in the game and a lot of people are surprised by that.

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Well, yeah, you need to do the lock-on thing with 3 and S&K, but once you do that they're not exactly hidden. The game points you right to the first of the warp rings that take you to Hidden Palace, after all.

Edited by Celestia

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Just now, Pixel said:

 Far more obscure than Fang the Sniper, who's very possibly cameoing in the game and a lot of people are surprised by that.

People are surprised about Fang because, even though he was a relatively important character in the classic generation, he's been unused ever since. And he's likely to continue being unused, which is why it'd be surprising if he did return to the games.

It's kinda similar with the Hyper forms. it's pretty popular, but it's been unused because Sega has deemed it non-canon ever since. It's less about obscurity and more about Segas willingness to let the canon be bent. 

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Just now, Diogenes said:

He really, really wasn't, though. All his game appearances were fairly obscure spinoffs.

"relatively important character". Compare Fang to the Chaotix group and Amy, all who got Modern continuination. Relatively Speaking, he was definitely one of the more important classic characters. 

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Just now, Christmas Dreams said:

"relatively important character". Compare Fang to the Chaotix group and Amy, all who got Modern continuination.

...yeah, he's below them in importance? Maybe you could argue he was on the same level as the Chaotix before Heroes, but that level was "fucking dead". Amy was introduced in CD, appeared in a number of spinoffs, and was included in the modern era from the get go, that is way beyond Fang's relevance.

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1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

...yeah, he's below them in importance? Maybe you could argue he was on the same level as the Chaotix before Heroes, but that level was "fucking dead". Amy was introduced in CD, appeared in a number of spinoffs, and was included in the modern era from the get go, that is way beyond Fang's relevance.

I am literally specifying that I'm talking about the Classic era. I specified that several times. I don't know how to make it any more obvious that I'm only talking about the classic era.

Amy was introduced in CD and appeared in a few spinoffs. Fang was an actual villain and also appeared in a few spinoffs. Also, saying the Chaotix were the same level as him when all of them were basically only in 1-2 game in the classic era is pretty preposterous. He was obviously more important than the chaotix in the classics. 

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While I'd still classify him as obscure, Nack's one of those characters that everyone knows of, at least. (As far as online fandom goes, anyway.)

I always thought it was interesting how fans of the more obscure characters in this franchise managed to make them common knowledge. And it's impressive how that passion is probably the reason the wanted poster cameos in Generations + Mania happened.

Also I'm not sure if number of appearances is really enough to determine importance. Using the Amy comparison, after CD she only really had presence in spinoffs, but with that one main game appearance as well as appearing in spinoffs even when Nack didn't (i.e. the first Drift, Sonic R), I'd say she was more "important".....but you could probably very easily argue against that. :V

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1 minute ago, Celestia said:

While I'd still classify him as obscure, Nack's one of those characters that everyone knows of, at least. (As far as online fandom goes, anyway.)

I always thought it was interesting how fans of the more obscure characters in this franchise managed to make them common knowledge. And it's impressive how that passion is probably the reason the wanted poster cameos in Generations + Mania happened.

Also I'm not sure if number of appearances is really enough to determine importance. Using the Amy comparison, after CD she only really had presence in spinoffs, but with that one main game appearance as well as appearing in spinoffs even when Nack didn't (i.e. the first Drift, Sonic R), I'd say she was more "important".....but you could probably very easily argue against that. :V

It happens in a number of fandoms, people think one thing is cool about a character a lot of people might not know about and it spreads. Its quite fun. Its like the Sentry, Sentry is by no means a popular character, and by no means marvel's only take on superman, but because of his power and how him being so powerful kept being brought up in debates. He was eventually for a time folded in to the main marvel universe. I don't think Fang is cool by any means, I actually think he's pretty lame " My power is a gun " , but its interesting how thing spreads

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5 minutes ago, Christmas Dreams said:

I am literally specifying that I'm talking about the Classic era. I specified that several times. I don't know how to make it any more obvious that I'm only talking about the classic era.

And again, his importance was basically zero. He appeared in a game gear platformer that almost no one played, a fighting game that no one played, and a kart racer that less than no one played.

6 minutes ago, Christmas Dreams said:

Also, saying the Chaotix were the same level as him when all of them were basically only in 1-2 game in the classic era is pretty preposterous. He was obviously more important than the chaotix in the classics. 

By what measure? One game? Chaotix was at least a notable obscure game, no one but absolute diehards ever gave a shit about Drift 2 or who was in it.

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Yeah, the main point of bringing up Fang was to disprove Diogenes' point about the Hyper forms being non-obscure. Fang is an obscure character, but he's appeared in numerous spinoffs and has been referenced in Generations and now Mania.

Meanwhile, Hyper forms have only appeared as a secret when Sonic 3 is locked on with Sonic and Knuckles and have never been referred to since.

It's clear that the Hyper forms are far more obscure than Fang and are very obscure by extension (as Fang is obscure as is).

I'd say that as the Hyper forms are so obscure, they'd fit right into Whitehead's habit of incorporating obscure Sonic trivia into his games.

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7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

By what measure? One game? Chaotix was at least a notable obscure game, no one but absolute diehards ever gave a shit about Drift 2 or who was in it.

Chaotix got literally no ports as far as I know. I think we've all played one of the games Fang was in through SA1 or Mega Collection or something. I still havn't had the opportunity to play Chaotix. And he's had a few cameos. Also, he's in Fleetway comics and Archie Comics so there's that too. 

He's one of those characters that's popular within the fandom, but not so much outside. Much like Classic Amy (and all her iterations). Her appearance varies so much, that if she weren't pink, her old designs would surely be as (or maybe even more) obscure. 

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7 minutes ago, Christmas Dreams said:

Chaotix got literally no ports as far as I know. I think we've all played one of the games Fang was in through SA1 or Mega Collection or something.

26 minutes ago, Christmas Dreams said:

I am literally specifying that I'm talking about the Classic era. I specified that several times. I don't know how to make it any more obvious that I'm only talking about the classic era.

So which is it? If you're going to talk about Fang's importance in the classic era, that some games with him were ported years after it ended doesn't matter. And if we're talking about his importance in the modern era...well, the Chaotix got revived, and he's still dead.

7 minutes ago, Christmas Dreams said:

Also, he's in Fleetway comics and Archie Comics so there's that too. 

Yeah, and so were/are Amy and the Chaotix.

7 minutes ago, Christmas Dreams said:

He's one of those characters that's popular within the fandom, but not so much outside.

He has his fans, but so does every character. And best as I can remember there were more people hoping for a return of the Chaotix (and after Heroes, Mighty) than there's ever been for Fang.

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Honestly, I have a few problems with Hyper forms. First of all, it's falling into the same power level one-upmanship trap that DBZ pulled - by falling into a habit of layering a brand new level of power on top of the ones that already exist, you quickly run out of ways to make that increase interesting and convincing. There were characters early on in DBZ that could blow up entire planets and dodge so fast their movement was literally un-perceivable, and that was before they'd even shown the first super form. In how many ways can you convincingly upgrade a Sonic character before they plateau? They're already completely invulnerable to all but a select few sources of harm, and can usually hit Unleashed Boost levels of speed completely unassisted on top of that.

And that brings me to the second problem I have - that it's completely fucking redundant. Hyper Sonic is just Super Sonic with a screen clearing move. What's wrong with just folding that ability into Super Sonic himself to start with? Super Sonic alone is already so broken that the majority of any given game will pose no challenge anymore, so separating him into whole extra layers of broken that make the game even more trivial than that is kind of pointless when you can just have a singular cheat mode and a Super boss and that's already more than enough. Hell, just having the screen clear attack at all is enough if you're only doing this for nostalgia points.

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Hyper Sonic was just a fun, cool extra. Not everything needs a deep, hidden secret. 

Besides, the team could think of some way of building on him.

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The Super Emeralds existed to give you a reason to play all the S&K Special Stages if you'd already gained all the Emeralds from the S3 Special Stages; it was a feature that existed solely because of the two-game format.  If Mania doesn't have the two-game format with two arbitrary forms of Special Stage, there's no need for Super Emeralds, simple as that.  I doubt they'll be in.

As for whether Super Tails and Super Knuckles will be in, Sonic Team's clearly decided that they don't count as canon, so I'd imagine they'll probably enforce that rule onto Mania - though I think there's a chance they'll suspend it in the interests of fun bonuses and Classic homage; it's not like they ever gave those forms significant new designs or anything like that, so it's easy to explain them away.  If those forms are in the game, though, I completely believe that Super Tails will be accessible through the regular Chaos Emeralds; again, the only reason he had to be accessed with the Super Emeralds before is because they didn't give him a Super form originally in S3, so they had to bump it up to the Super Emeralds when they decided that all three playable characters should have Super forms.  Since Super Tails is just a bonus which was clearly only harder to obtain owing to development circumstances, there's no reason not to revise the requirements downwards if they want it to show up again.

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