Sonic Mania (August 15th 2017, Christian Whitehead, PS4, Xbox One, PC, Switch) - The New Classic

[Wraith]

I don't feel it's right to tell them they lost and to get over it, because we sure as shit didn't do that. Classic Fans pushed until they got what they wanted, so I expect the Adventure fans that are left to continue to do so as well. Sure a lot of them aren't nice about it, but that wasn't the case for Classic fans either. Circumstances were more in our favor so the better members of that community were able to shine.

[Celestia]

8 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

 (with the exception of Sonic World, and it's an uncontrollable mess as a result).

My problem with World (and other 3D Sonic fan games of its kind that try to take after official 3D Sonic games) being brought up in this debate is that...well, to be blunt, it isn't very good. But more than that, it doesn't even control similarly to say, Adventure, or even Adventure 2. As far as I know, there hasn't been a fan project that really tries to emulate those games control- and physics-wise, let alone do that and then, hopefully, try to improve on them. The only things they've really emulated are stuff like multiple playable characters, and that's obviously not something exclusive to 3D Sonic anyway.

[Milo]

On 1/3/2017 at 2:09 PM, Slingerland said:

I mean, when I hear SA3 fans discuss what they want (and I've talked to a ton this past year), they perplexingly never talk about gameplay. It's always the story (aka "THE EEEEDDGGGE"). So I think capturing the spirit of those games (and subverting it, obviously, for humor), is good enough, in my opinion? Idk.

My theory there is that Adventure fans have been fed an absurd amount of gameplay styles and a myriad of different ways to control Sonic in the last 17 years that they're subconsciously unsure of what they want, gameplay-wise. So, when I talk to them, they only profess what has remained consistent... and that's... THE EEEDDDGGEEE. It's the true defining and lasting impression of those games.

I think Adventure fans likely do have an idea, but I'd argue the Sonic Adventure games are a case of a series that genuinely represents different elements of Sonic to different people. Some people want hubworlds. Some people want alternative playstyles for characters (re: mech shooting, emerald hunting, etc.). Some people (especially) want Chao Gardens. While other people want none of those things. And that's just the gameplay side of of the equation, there's still contentions over other aspects like each game's narrative/tone, use of characters, artstyle, and musical genres/styles; among other aspects.

And speaking of Sonic 2006: (the overall consensus over) the game's quality notwithstanding, whether that games count as a proper sequel to the Adventure games (as already declared earlier in previous posts in this thread--the memetic "Sonic 2006 = Adventure 3") on the basis of the similarities they hold to those games in its structure, is --unsurprisingly-- a heated point of contention for quite a few people. (Unleashed gets it too, chiefly with the "Sonic World Adventure" title it has in its Japan and was supposed to have in the West, but its to a lesser extent than with Sonic 2006.)

It's a far cry from Sonic 1 to 3&K, with each succeeding entry clearly having a linked evolution from its predecessor. Despite the tendencies of some to blame a diverse fanbase over how Sonic 4 turned out, the majority of a design brief to a new entry of those games is a no-brainer, and I'm sure most classic fans would say Mania is hitting the right notes on what a Sonic 3&K sequel would be expected to provide. Whereas a "Sonic Adventure 3", either by direct sequel or even as a spiritual successor, is arguably a case in which various sects of the fans of those games have their own ideas of what such a hypothetical game would be like--not as easy to pin down in comparison.

[Indigo Rush]

7 minutes ago, Josh said:

I don't feel it's right to tell them they lost and to get over it, because we sure as shit didn't do that. Classic Fans pushed until they got what they wanted, so I expect the Adventure fans that are left to continue to do so as well. Sure a lot of them aren't nice about it, but that wasn't the case for Classic fans either. Circumstances were more in our favor so the better members of that community were able to shine.

I wouldn't say that either. I just honestly don't know what they could do.

[Wraith]

5 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

I wouldn't say that either. I just honestly don't know what they could do.

I'm pretty sure they've largely realized they can't do much themselves a while ago and thats why they resort to complaining so much, sometimes to obnoxious degrees. It's clearly getting them noticed.

[Celestia]

Sadly the only ones getting noticed are that infamous group that nobody likes (for good reason, mostly). :V

[Wraith]

I don't think there's enough spark anywhere else for them to get notice. A lot of Adventure fans I know of have moved on, like I said earlier. There are plenty of series that fit what a lot of them are asking for. It's just a shame you have to let go of what was probably an emotional investment since childhood to get that. 

[Meta77]

The only thing that bugs me about classic fans is the use of the word speed for old sonic games. No past sonic game and i grew up with sonic as my first game. Being born in 89 had its perks of growing up with the franchise but never has the game been just speed. Sure you had segments where you hit a hill or loop but more often than not unless you were a speed runner and not the kind that used glitches or chipping to dash under oil ocean sonic games have never been just "that" fast. more often than not your going to hit segments that are slow. Aka ice cap, death egg, spring hill, wacky work bench, lava reef, etc etc.

The adventure series fans know what they want but are constantly made fun of cause the games never live up to some outstanding fan deviant art story most write up or what they think makes the games fun. F what sega wants and thinks. If its not my fan fic its wrong for sonic cause we made him and we know. Such as shadow. He needs his own game, he gets it. They give him a gun, but wait they have to tone the game down to get a e10 rating. Fans gripe about him being to edgy. Its shadow, the freaking guy that told eggman about the elispe cannon and helped him blow up half the moon. Or sonic 06. Lord help me. Elise kissed sonic omg its as if satan himself made that scene. Granted it did not bug me. Honestly i liked it cause i saw it as a nice moment for them. Heck i grew up on 90s action cartons with humans and animals. Hell roger rabbit? But I think they could make a sonic adventure 3. The only thing is sega tends to rush games at least sonic games to get them out the door in time. Sonic mania was a surprise. And I am excited for it. But the hype of them announcing SA3 was greater. A past view of the youtube stream and twitch showed this. Even when someone asked if they are making one on the floor at that party, if you can call it that.

[Diogenes]

6 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

9 minutes ago, Josh said:

I don't feel it's right to tell them they lost and to get over it, 

I wouldn't say that either.

I'm tempted to say it.

But to be less snarky, I feel an Adventure revival just isn't going to work because and for many of the same reasons that it didn't work the first time. It's an era that couldn't keep a clear direction for even two games in a row, a mess of incoherent and often outright bad ideas that drove away a lot of fans and fragmented those who remained. Obviously that era does have its fans, and I'm not saying there are no good ideas to salvage from it. But it's hard to picture what kind of game the loose conglomerate of "Adventure fans" even want, and nigh impossible to imagine one I'd actually call good.

[Slingerland]

1 hour ago, Nepenthe said:

Yes. The fact of the matter is that classic fans rallied around specific games, ideals, and made their own tests out of that information and camaraderie. This was pointed out months ago, by Gene if I recall. However, my question is what is the take away for Adventure fans supposed to be? Create our own fangames then? But you say it's not fair to ask us to create a full 3D platformer (although I'd argue a single stage would be fine and doable), but if that's the case then why point out the leverage classic fans have in the first place if we're now all agreeing it's not as easily obtainable for 3D fans? What are we supposed to do with this information. I think everyone agrees on less toxicity being a good thing, but toxicity in the Sonic community isn't limited to groups who liked SA1 and SA2, nor is it necessarily the main reason why Mania is being made by Retro. Mania is being made by Retro because they have the talent and connections to make it. Adventure fans don't, so what we're left with is, as I said, rallying around communities centered on debate and discussion, debate and discussion whose tone is going to be marred by the differences in opinion, general Internet anonymity theory, and the fact that you're dealing with a bunch of 20 year olds who have been called useless and undiscerning 12 year olds for almost a decade. We've got serious work to do, but I question the salience of pointing out the fan game community on top of that.

Also this. I've been distant for awhile because I don't see any signs of things going in the direction I'd like. xP

But... they could have the ability and the connections if they tried. It's entirely doable and even easier in the current Internet environment. The place of where I've seen the most unifying thoughts is Sonic's fangaming community, so I do think it deserves acknowledgement for what it has accomplished. It helps that the games that the fangaming community tries to emulate the most are incredibly more focused and, therefore, polished. Classic Sonic and especially Mario are successful because those games are built around an singular, central, and incredibly solid mechanic and fleshed out from there once said mechanic has been throughly perfected. I think a big life lesson that a game like Sonic Adventure taught me is to not spread your focus to thin or else everything is going to be hindered to some degree.

Let's remove the capability of making a tech demo/fangame/whatever from this discussion and address what you mentioned a baseline Adventure fan is capable of: debate and discussion. As an outsider looking into that world, it's not very welcoming and, as Celestia pointed out, is marred by the overreaching toxicity of one of those communities. As much as we want that fanpage to go away, it won't and will continue to position itself as the de facto mouthpiece. Gabe also makes a good point in reply to my theory on "multiple gameplay styles":

53 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I think they likely do have an idea, but I'd argue the Sonic Adventure duology is a case what I'd consider to be a series that means different things to different people. Some want hubworlds, some want Chao Gardens, some want alternative gameplay style for characters, while other people want none of those things. And that's just the gameplay side of things, there's still contentions over stuff like each game's narrative/tone, use of characters, artstyle, and musical genres/styles; among other things. 

It's a far cry from Sonic 1 to 3&K, with each succeeding entry clearly having a linked evolution from its predecessor. Despite the tendencies of some to blame a diverse fanbase, the majority of a design brief to a new entry of those games is a no-brainer, and I'm sure most classic fans would say Mania is hitting most of the right notes on what a Sonic 3&K sequel would be expected to provide. Whereas a "Sonic Adventure 3" is arguably a case in which various sects of the fans of those games have their own ideas of what such a hypothetical game would be like--not as hard to pin down in comparison.

This is where Sonic Adventure discussion falls flat on its face and results in splintering and in-fighting. There is such a lack of focus on one specific thing in the Adventure series that it not only hampers the wide array of gameplay styles present within them, but then that creates all these sub-fanbases of the myriad of different things present in those games. If there's still contention of what Sonic Adventure truly "is," then I don't think you'll see anything come of it. In a hypothetical situation, SEGA could release a "Sonic Adventure 3" without, say... idk, a Chao Garden and a large fraction of the people who wanted a SA3 would be up in arms about it. Diogenes above me (HEY WHAT UP, FOOL!!), phrased it well:

Quote

I feel an Adventure revival just isn't going to work because and for many of the same reasons that it didn't work the first time. It's an era that couldn't keep a clear direction for even two games in a row, a mess of incoherent and often outright bad ideas that drove away a lot of fans and fragmented those who remained.

One last point that I also think is important:

Quote

...and the fact that you're dealing with a bunch of 20 year olds who have been called useless and undiscerning 12 year olds for almost a decade

Now, please nobody infer that I'm encouraging name calling here, but the reason this thought persists and results in the name-calling is because for said decade, there's all this arguing and complaining and nobody has really stepped up and done anything about it. Hindsight also brings about the "undiscerning" tag because Sonic Adventure is the beginning of Sonic's decline in global popularity and sales (again, this is objectively true; please remember there is a world outside the Sonic forums/Twitter/etc). There are definitely constructive ways to attain what you want, as Mania's team exemplifies, and nobody aching for that Adventure game has come anywhere close to being constructive. The only difference I see between then and now is that this never-ending discussion is now on Facebook/Twitter and is much more aggressive. I think if that movement wants to be successful, it ironically has to take similar steps that the classic fanbase, the people Adventure communities like to deride, took.

Sadly, if they do end up being more positive and constructive about it all, they'll have to wait until Mania (and maybe even a sequel to prove it wasn't a fluke) wins some goodwill back from the industry at large to take that risk. 

[Mauricius]

I think that all these people with such "diverse opinions" just want a good Sonic game, which is also why there are more complaints on recent games than discussions on what made the Adventure games great and unique. No one is asking for a game that exactly replicates the gameplay or tone of the Adventure series - as has already been said, the two games are quite different themselves. While stuff like a Chao Garden, hub worlds or having "Adventure" in the game's title would be nice bonuses for the fans, not many people would be upset if the game lacked these elements since most people just want things like a proper 3D spindash, no 2D sections, more freedom in the environments (which the Adventure games didn't really do right, but they still feel more free than the boost games) and a proper, engaging story which can be taken seriously (meaning that it doesn't have to be serious).

Honestly, even if they made a game with more serious tone and similar gameplay to the Adventures, I'm sure many people would still be upset as it could still just be nostalgia pandering instead of reusing the good and successful elements of past games. This is why I'm concerned about Project 2017's tone; the trailer could either be a message that they are returning to stories with more Action, or it could mean that they are trying to make the story try-hard edgy, and that's exactly what resulted in games like Shadow or '06.

[The Deleter]

Just want to add something that people might not be considering... I see a lot of people wondering what fans of adventure games want out of a sequel, or even the franchise as a whole, and either pin it down to "edge", or lots of things that they may not all agree on... And I wouldn't disagree on that, honestly. I, as a fan of the direction, have honestly only wanted a few certain things from them that I identified with, and not many others do, and I'm pretty sure that applies to all fans of the two games. There's just too many elements to choose from, and they aren't consistent between the two.

However, I think that maybe that aspect of the fanbase can actually be condensed down to one identifiable trait, at least for most issues.

I mean just look at the reasons people say they love the games online, despite their flaws. People loved them specifically for introducing the great (for the time) stories. People also loved them for letting them play as tons of their favorite characters with their own chapters. Adding Chao gardens, creating living breathing hub worlds, expanding on the worldbuilding and lore, etc. etc.

It may seem disconnected and unmanageable... Because it is, but maybe we can identify it all with one idea?

Specifically, ambition. The ambition to expand the games in unexplored directions, (not necessarily in terms of core gameplay though) and make the games as fleshed out as possible.

 

That's... Not to say the series for the most part doesn't have ambition, (I mean look at the games up to Color's point; it's pretty much their defining reason for failure overall) but I don't think adventure fans were ever opposed to a lot of ideas from that era? It's when the series got to Colors and stagnated in terms of ambition in favor of core gameplay and classic catering where people started having the most issues. And honestly, that should be a pretty telling milestone in how to identify this crowd specifically.

Individually, plenty of adventure fans have less than ideal preferences that would end up hurting the series, honestly, but if you take this aspect of their mindset, apply it to a consistent, quality core gameplay style, wouldn't it stand to reason they'd be more satisfied than not with the result? I think that'd be a good foot to start off on if anyone wants to appease Adventure fans, or at the very least identify the appeal to them.

[Diogenes]

"Ambition" is vague to the point of being meaningless. What kind of direction could they even take from that? "Do things! But not the things I don't like."

[The Deleter]

Have an ambitious story, have ambitious content, be ambitious in defining a world you're travelling through... I admit it isn't the most solid direction you can take, but it'd be a far sight better than sticking to, "Be Classic Sonic in all execution, because everything classic did is better!" as the series has been for some time now. Not in every element, to be sure, but a lot of them have been.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

Have an ambitious story, have ambitious content, be ambitious in defining a world you're travelling through... 

Again, you're not actually saying anything. This doesn't mean anything.

2 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

... but it'd be a far sight better than sticking to, "Be Classic Sonic in all execution, because everything classic did is better!" as the series has been for some time now. Not in every element, to be sure, but a lot of them have been.

Oh like hell, Mania is the only thing since the Genesis to genuinely understand classic Sonic rather than just use it as a cheap nostalgia grab.

[Mark1]

Wouldn't it be better to change the topic to stop it getting locked? I don't see how this is relevant to Sonic Mania other than discussing how to satisfy a different form of fan base to the classic era games. 

Fans are itching to see more footage ? Let's see if the Switch presentation next week is where they (hopefully) announce a port of that game with some new level coverage ??

[Celestia]

A fangame community along the lines of Sonic's is kind of unusual in the first place. I can't really think of any other franchises with as many fangames as Sonic, for example. Sure, it's theoretically possible that "Adventure fans" could do all the same things "Classic fans" did, but how realistic is that, exactly?

In any case, all of this is kind of flying over my head because, at least as far as core gameplay goes, I don't see Adventure as that different from classic anyway. Give Sonic the ability to roll without spindashing first and, naturally, make more use out of the physics for platforming (see: the prototype level design in Windy Valley) and there ya go. This is making it sound like I think it'd be easy when I'm well aware it wouldn't be, but it's hardly impossible either, especially if they truly have abandoned the yearly release schedule. Something with Adventure's core design but 1) with the modern Sonic Team's polish (in a Not Having So Many Glitches technical sense) and 2) without the aspects that they definitely wouldn't do again anyway (i.e. fishing) could easily be a great game.

It's when we get into topics like tone and writing and all that where things get, uh...complicated, to the point where I literally just don't want to discuss that stuff anymore. That said.

37 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

Have an ambitious story, have ambitious content, be ambitious in defining a world you're travelling through... I admit it isn't the most solid direction you can take, but it'd be a far sight better than sticking to, "Be Classic Sonic in all execution, because everything classic did is better!" as the series has been for some time now. Not in every element, to be sure, but a lot of them have been.

The thing about this is--and in fairness you didn't say otherwise--Sonic Team's just gone about it the wrong way. That is to say, yes, Solo Sonic is an attempt to cater to Classic fans...except the classics had other playable characters, hence why people call BS. And I'd argue this goes for the whole "barely any story" thing too, because while the Classics didn't have tons of cutscenes or anything, they did try to sincerely tell a story (particularly in the games that did have a few cutscenes, like 3&K and to a lesser extent CD). 

The Adventures were also sincere about wanting to tell a story, just in a different way, and unfortunately it was held back by technical issues, not to mention it's very obvious there were....issues...with the English translations (though that was probably at it's worst with later games like ShTH). There's also debates about them taking it all too seriously, but I honestly think that didn't really start until ShTH. Say what you will about SA2, but there's just enough ridiculousness (remember that time Eggman scratched his butt?) for me to think they weren't taking it that seriously. But it still felt more honest than the current writing's self-deprecating / self-referential shtick. I don't even particularly hate the more recent games' stories, but I can't deny that I miss that sincerity.

...I feel like I'm rambling at this point, lol. Hopefully at least some of that made sense. The problem isn't in being more Classic, it's that Sonic Team's idea of "Classic Sonic" seems pretty shallow.

[Slingerland]

1 hour ago, The Deleter said:

Have an ambitious story, have ambitious content, be ambitious in defining a world you're travelling through... I admit it isn't the most solid direction you can take, but it'd be a far sight better than sticking to, "Be Classic Sonic in all execution, because everything classic did is better!" as the series has been for some time now. Not in every element, to be sure, but a lot of them have been.

This post isn't saying anything here. This post is listing things in a game with the word "ambitious" before it. Again, as we've talked about today, what is said ambition? What's the bar? Someone said earlier that people just want "a good Sonic game." Where's the bar for "good?" The lack of definition and focus is what's keeping those fans from getting what they desire.

Sonic Team realized it had fallen victim to its own ambition and sought to simplify things. First, it started with games featuring Sonic only (like Colors) but after that wasn't a runaway success (albeit a competent entry), steps were made to go back further (first with Generations, now all the way back with Mania). You even qualified your own thoughts as "not the most solid direction." "Be classic Sonic in all execution," you noted, is inferior, which thus far is not the case. Classic Sonic had been a solid and more focused direction and its full-blown return this past year has brought more attention and positive press to the franchise than any time I can remember. 

Again, 17 years of Modern Sonic has been thus far ultimately fruitless. At this present time, it has proven that it doesn't work. It's expected that a company go all the way back to a time when they were successful and explore what concepts and aesthetics worked. Financially, everything classic did was better and in this revival era, it's proving its strong legs once again. To reiterate, if Mania wins back some good will, maybe Sonic Team gets the leeway to make that "ambitious" game you're talking about.

Thanks for your thorough first reply, though, Deleter! I always like insightful looks into how the other side thinks and that's exactly what I'm trying to get out of people here.

1 hour ago, Mark1 said:

Wouldn't it be better to change the topic to stop it getting locked? I don't see how this is relevant to Sonic Mania other than discussing how to satisfy a different form of fan base to the classic era games. 

Fans are itching to see more footage ? Let's see if the Switch presentation next week is where they (hopefully) announce a port of that game with some new level coverage ??

1) This has been a pretty fun and engaging discussion with some actual thought put it into it. Easily the most rational one I've had in years on this forum. I like it. What else y'all gon' talk about? Ain't no Mania news anydangway.

2) Re: Switch presentation - Nah.

[The Deleter]

33 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Oh like hell, Mania is the only thing since the Genesis to genuinely understand classic Sonic rather than just use it as a cheap nostalgia grab.

I know that, and you know that; the problem is that SEGA, and a fair amount of classic diehards, don't. And until the former ever changes one way or the other, that's the direction "adventure" fans are going to have to deal with, for no apparent reason other than pandering in their eyes. And that's pretty much the root of their issue with the series nowadays, so...

And by extention, "Be ambitious" says a lot more than it does otherwise. I'm not trying to define a certain direction and feel it should be, as that'd be impossible, but it's in direct contrast to the "do everything as barebones as possible", "classic" mentality SEGA's been taking the series in since Colors. We can debate which ambitious direction would be best for the series all day, but I'm pretty sure this kind of desire at it's core is pretty clear cut otherwise, and says plenty about the situation and what is needed from it, at the very least.

Quote

The thing about this is--and in fairness you didn't say otherwise--Sonic Team's just gone about it the wrong way. That is to say, yes, Solo Sonic is an attempt to cater to Classic fans...except the classics had other playable characters, hence why people call BS. And I'd argue this goes for the whole "barely any story" thing too, because while the Classics didn't have tons of cutscenes or anything, they did try to sincerely tell a story (particularly in the games that did have a few cutscenes, like 3&K and to a lesser extent CD). 

The Adventures were also sincere about wanting to tell a story, just in a different way, and unfortunately it was held back by technical issues, not to mention it's very obvious there were....issues...with the English translations (though that was probably at it's worst with later games like ShTH). There's also debates about them taking it all too seriously, but I honestly think that didn't really start until ShTH. Say what you will about SA2, but there's just enough ridiculousness (remember that time Eggman scratched his butt?) for me to think they weren't taking it that seriously. But it still felt more honest than the current writing's self-deprecating / self-referential shtick. I don't even particularly hate the more recent games' stories, but I can't deny that I miss that sincerity.

...I feel like I'm rambling at this point, lol. Hopefully at least some of that made sense.

Exactly. I'm not even saying following in the adventure games footsteps is the only way to please the crowd, at least in theory based off of this idea; if they just fully understood classic Sonic, and applied the ambition towards that direction instead, I think it may work just as well, if not better.

In theory :U

[Diogenes]

9 minutes ago, Celestia said:

A fangame community along the lines of Sonic's is kind of unusual in the first place. I can't really think of any other franchises with as many fangames as Sonic, for example. Sure, it's theoretically possible that "Adventure fans" could do all the same things "Classic fans" did, but how realistic is that, exactly?

Depends on how much they want it. I think the main reason the Sonic fangaming community has exploded into such a huge thing is because a lot of passionate people weren't getting what they wanted from the series, so they decided to make it themselves. And while 3D games, even fairly modest ones, are significantly more difficult to make than 16-bit era sidescrollers, they're becoming more and more accessible as time goes on, much as tools for 2D games developed over the years.

1 minute ago, The Deleter said:

... the "do everything as barebones as possible", "classic" mentality SEGA's been taking the series in since Colors.

You do know that this doesn't actually exist, right.

Sega fucks up a whole lot, and in some areas recent games are not as expansive as, say, Unleashed, but there is no sane measure where Colors, Gens, and Lost World are "as barebones as possible".

[Tornado]

55 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Oh like hell, Mania is the only thing since the Genesis to genuinely understand classic Sonic rather than just use it as a cheap nostalgia grab.

There's probably a ridiculously strict definition of "understand" at play here.

[The Deleter]

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

You do know that this doesn't actually exist, right.

Sega fucks up a whole lot, and in some areas recent games are not as expansive as, say, Unleashed, but there is no sane measure where Colors, Gens, and Lost World are "as barebones as possible".

Like I said, not in every element, no. Gameplay and level design are the biggest outliers, specifically. Never said otherwise. I don't think that's what adventure fans focus on for the majority, though, tbh, especially since 2D and boost aren't exactly their favorite gameplay styles in the first place.

Edit: Really the more appropriate term for the recent games is "Play it safe", but even then that's debatable with SLW thrown into the mix. *shrug*

Something inbetween the two would probably be more accurate.

[Diogenes]

25 minutes ago, Tornado said:

There's probably a ridiculously strict definition of "understand" at play here.

Mania sticks very close to the Genesis games but I would not require something as similar as that to say that it understands the Genesis games. 

[Slingerland]

18 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

Like I said, not in every element, no. Gameplay and level design are the biggest outliers, specifically. Never said otherwise. I don't think that's what adventure fans focus on for the majority, though, tbh, especially since 2D and boost aren't exactly their favorite gameplay styles in the first place.

Deleter, what are your personal thoughts on boosting? Is it something you enjoy, dislike, or have come to dislike over time? (Anyone else feel free to chime in with their thoughts on it, too.) I believe the use of 2D and non-stop speed via boosting is helping hide the deficiencies of the game engines they create/employ, as we haven't had a true 360 engine since the Advance series and never in a 3D Sonic game. I'd like to hear someone like yourself talk about it, though.

Also, on a related note for those of you who have played Mania, what do you think of the drop dash? Has it changed your perception of any of the original Genesis/Mega Drive games? I know that, as a speedrunner, it's hard for me to play those games now without it, haha. I feel like it's the perfect addition to Sonic's arsenal that both makes him equal to Knuckles/Tails, but has a good risk/reward balance to its use (unlike boosting, which I feel is OP).

[Tornado]

32 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Mania sticks very close to the Genesis games but I would not require something as similar as that to say that it understands the Genesis games. 

So what part of, say, Advance, made it so it only understood Sonic 2 or whatever insofar as it needed to to be a cheap nostalgia grab?