Sonic Mania (August 15th 2017, Christian Whitehead, PS4, Xbox One, PC, Switch) - The New Classic

[Diogenes]

I think Advance is kind of an outlier; it wasn't really trying to be classic Sonic so much as it was pulling a NSMB. I wouldn't call it a cheap nostalgia grab but it's also only a decent shot at the gameplay and aesthetically it's not even aiming to look like the classics. But if you want to call it the last time before Mania that someone understood classic Sonic I wouldn't fight too hard; it's still well before and completely unrelated to the attempted classic revival that we were talking about.

[azoo]

My two cents on the matter.

I'd love to come together with other Sonic fans and say "you know what'd be great that we could do? A Sonic Adventure fan game. Sonic can Spin Dash, roll and Homing Attack through kinda-linear 3D platformer stages with some intense action scenes thrown in between. There are hub worlds, and side missions, and a story where you take the events and characters seriously, and there's also other playable characters that get near equal emphasis."

But my dream Sonic game, despite fitting all of these remarks, would have gameplay probably closer to the classics (that being where SA1 was pulling from), an art style closer to Unleashed/Colors/Gens, a story closer in tone and delivery to only SA1, side missions and extra content only like SA2, and hubs and alt play styles that'd have to be remarkably better pulled off than previous attempts; for example, hubs would have to be more streamlined and feature more elements from Unleashed's (but without the medal gatekeeping), the level design would have to be more open and give room for more paths, and the alt styles would have to be closer to Sonic's gameplay style but with minor twists.

Now how much does this sound like a true Sonic Adventure sequel, and how much of it sounds like a new thing altogether? Granted, we probably would've gotten a game like this if Sega didn't completely shit the bed with forcing Sonic Team to churn out games rapid fire in post of their console market collapse, but it's not like we can just say "oh the game will turn out like this if we want a sequel of it".

Because it won't. Instead, we'll get all the good things you liked about the Adventures (or not, given 06).. and all of the bad things too. This isn't quite as easy of a situation to sum up as Mania or the general revival of the classic Sonic style, because unlike that you can't just make more (granted it's done proper) and have it turn out unquestionably well. The SA games have as many problems as they do good qualities, and what people really would want here is a spiritual successor more than anything.

But even if we come together and realize we want a spiritual successor, how does that even work?

I love my ideas I just mentioned and tbh I know a good bit of others reading this topic will too, but who's to say that we can all come to an ultimatum and agree on that, saying "yes, those were the greatest aspects of the Adventure games and are the ideals to focus on"? Many here and outside will also argue the new cool characters, the demigod subplots, the edge factor, the HARDCORE CRUSH 40 VOCAL TRAX, the completely different gameplay styles that take up a large portion of the game (such as an affinity for treasure hunting or mech stages), the ideal of style over substance (and thus apathy for more involved or less linear gameplay), the extremely cool kid late 90s / early 2000s anime influence, the realism, heck even the voice actors from that time period are extremely vital and unquestionably necessary for a return to that "formula", all while also leaving room to believe that some of the things I mentioned as 'best' for an SA successor is trivial and overall unimportant.

It's not that I like or want to accept this situation. It's kinda sad! I'm never going to see the Sonic game I've always wanted ever, and that's because despite adoring the classic era and Mania so much (seriously I'm love with it and I'm so happy it's existing god I love Sonic, guys), the Adventure era is where I grew up. And the qualities I found best are completely different from the other person's opinion on it and EVERYTHING in between me and they, and that's why noone besides loud purists on the matter have been heard.

[JezMM]

1 hour ago, BlueParadox said:

I wonder if we'll be getting DLC levels a few weeks after the game's release. I'd like to see DLCs with brand new levels + re-imagined levels. 

Or

Maybe SEGA could release all the Classic Sonic ports by The Taxman & Stealth and could create a lock-on technology system (Similiar to Sonic 4 Ep 2's Lock on system):

For example if you have Sonic Mania & Sonic 1 remastered (by the Taxman & Stealth), you'll unlock Scrap Brain Zone, Marble Zone & Spring Yard Zone.

If you have Sonic Mania & Sonic 2 Remastered, you'll unlock Emerald Hill Zone, Aquatic Ruins & Casino Night Zone.

I think this would be a great opportunity to release Sonic 3&K Remastered to be honest so that players could also unlock re-imagined levels from the game.

It's a very small team working on the game, and making levels for a platformer is a very costly process.  I think we can safely expect no DLC for this game whatsoever, in order to not break the retro appeal of the game (DLC didn't exist back in those days, etc).

You're definitely out of touch with how game development works if you think we'd get such content within weeks of the game's launch.  While they likely have several on the go at once, I wouldn't be surprised if an average level takes a good few months to design, program, test, redesign/reprogram/retest depending on feedback and testing, repeat for as long as necessary, then produce art and music for the stage (while also programming it to gel with the stage design correctly and test all of that out and fine-tune it all).

Basically, in short, what you're asking is a LOT more complicated than you seem to think, and would be next to impossible.  I'm guessing as well that they have no DLC plans for the game as that stuff would have to be figured out in advance as a thing the developers are going to do once the main game has shipped.  This is the team's first time making a brand new game for SEGA so they probably want to see how it does before they get the folks to continue making stuff for them.

[Maxtiis]

I recall either a video, or a forum post made by Stealth that had something to do with Sonic 3 Remastered, where he expressed his wish that someday he'd be able to create 2-D Sonic games as a sub-series for Sega. Hopefully with Sonic Mania this'll become a reality. Seriously, with the marketing and positive press Mania's received since it was revealed, I'll be shocked if it doesn't succeed.

And not to go off on a tangent on my first forum post, I think there are plenty of Adventure fans that know what they want from a return to that era's gameplay, they just aren't capable of expressing it clearly without their opinions being lost or distorted in the toxic swamp that unfortunately surrounds that facet of the community. I know what I would want from such a return, but I know to remain realistic that it won't happen anytime soon, if at all, and I don't want this post to become unnecessarily long by listing them. 

[Marcello]

10 hours ago, Slingerland said:

Just out of curiosity, what Sonic games outside of Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 has given that to you? 

Satisfactorily? None. '06 tried, but was terrible. Heroes and Shadow are kind of similar, but different enough with their gimmicks and controls that I don't count them as the same. 

I just realized this is the Mania thread and not the Project '17 thread. I want to say, I'm fine with getting a Classic game. Me wanting an Adventure-like game isn't supposed to be a strike against this one.

[Shiromokuba]

13 hours ago, Slingerland said:

Unrelated: I've seen the comment, "Green Hill... again?!" a lot. It's because Sega has swung and missed so many times (please do not argue that they have not; Sega had to lay off its entire San Francisco office and was forced to downsize and relocate; financial facts supplant your personal opinion of the games) 

Ah. I was under the impression that Sonic games/merch generally sold well and wasn't the direct cause of the downsize. I assumed they did well since they pump these games out on what seems to be short development cycles to meet holiday season deadlines and they know they can sell on just name recognition alone for the most part so whether its a quality product didn't matter. Otherwise I imagine Sega would have just made Sonic into a mascot only or dropped him entirely like the way Sony (and to some extent Nintendo) dropped some of their character platformers. Am I totally wrong about this? Hope it's not coming off as combative.

[The Deleter]

8 hours ago, Slingerland said:

Deleter, what are your personal thoughts on boosting? Is it something you enjoy, dislike, or have come to dislike over time? (Anyone else feel free to chime in with their thoughts on it, too.) I believe the use of 2D and non-stop speed via boosting is helping hide the deficiencies of the game engines they create/employ, as we haven't had a true 360 engine since the Advance series and never in a 3D Sonic game. I'd like to hear someone like yourself talk about it, though.

Also, on a related note for those of you who have played Mania, what do you think of the drop dash? Has it changed your perception of any of the original Genesis/Mega Drive games? I know that, as a speedrunner, it's hard for me to play those games now without it, haha. I feel like it's the perfect addition to Sonic's arsenal that both makes him equal to Knuckles/Tails, but has a good risk/reward balance to its use (unlike boosting, which I feel is OP).

Well... Sorta surprised you want me to talk about boost of all people, since it's been the topic of discussion almost too often lately, lol, but first I missed your response on the previous page; sorry about that. Popped right out of nowhere on my notifications list an hour later. Lemme go back to that first... (spoiler'd for size and off-topic ramblings)

 

9 hours ago, Slingerland said:

This post isn't saying anything here. This post is listing things in a game with the word "ambitious" before it. Again, as we've talked about today, what is said ambition? What's the bar? Someone said earlier that people just want "a good Sonic game." Where's the bar for "good?" The lack of definition and focus is what's keeping those fans from getting what they desire.

Sonic Team realized it had fallen victim to its own ambition and sought to simplify things. First, it started with games featuring Sonic only (like Colors) but after that wasn't a runaway success (albeit a competent entry), steps were made to go back further (first with Generations, now all the way back with Mania). You even qualified your own thoughts as "not the most solid direction." "Be classic Sonic in all execution," you noted, is inferior, which thus far is not the case. Classic Sonic had been a solid and more focused direction and its full-blown return this past year has brought more attention and positive press to the franchise than any time I can remember. 

Again, 17 years of Modern Sonic has been thus far ultimately fruitless. At this present time, it has proven that it doesn't work. It's expected that a company go all the way back to a time when they were successful and explore what concepts and aesthetics worked. Financially, everything classic did was better and in this revival era, it's proving its strong legs once again. To reiterate, if Mania wins back some good will, maybe Sonic Team gets the leeway to make that "ambitious" game you're talking about.

Thanks for your thorough first reply, though, Deleter! I always like insightful looks into how the other side thinks and that's exactly what I'm trying to get out of people here.

Well, that's the thing. My reasoning for sticking to an ambiguous "ambition" buzzword, is that when you try to define said ambition to identify with the adventure crowd specifically, it gets closer to what the adventure games were about, but it also becomes a lot more subjective. And that's the problem: the two games have plenty of differences that just splinters the fanbase apart. Any attempt at isolating the finest essence of what makes an adventure fan, an adventure fan, just ends in confusion and a lack of direction.

And in any other situation this buzzword would be meaningless, I agree, but since it's in stark contrast to the play-it-safe nature of the series by now, I think it's a pretty apt description for an otherwise not-easy-to-understand fanbase. How far that ambition should go, what it should apply to, and what it should be limited from, I don't know, (though it could probably be pinned down to at least several areas to cater to them) but there is a pretty clear difference in philosophies going on between them and SEGA's direction for the series, and it's what they raise the most fuss over in the first place. *shrug*

Now whether Sonic should go down that path again, already, is another discussion entirely, yeah.

To be clear, what I meant when I said "solid direction" was that it is pretty vague anyways, not that it wouldn't be the best direction of the series overall. In terms of the current climate, of course it wouldn't be the best - I'd probably give it a good 5 years of consistently quality games till the public would be accepting of it again. But in terms of classic being outright objectively better? Eeeh... it's definitely the most proven, but a series can achieve a lot more than it was before when ambition is used in the right places, my own biases for more modern games notwithstanding. Obviously getting in the public's good graces should be the top priority here, alongside making quality games, but I don't think we should completely drop the possibilities of the unexplored just because safer is better, for now.

But ultimately, I'm just trying to identify Adventure fans in the broadest yet most accurate way possible here, as there were a couple of questions asking whether they're all that definable in the first place. And hey, if a fan game is ever made for them, that might be a good place to start from; who knows? Otherwise, I agree that the safer route is the best route for now, yeah.

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As for the boost... well, to be honest, it's been the topic of debate for some time in recent years, so most of what I have to say has already been said before in the past. But as for my hot takes on it all, I think there's two sides to each coin specifically.

As someone who prefers 3D gameplay and momentum-based physics... I'm not fond of the boost at all, lmao. Well, at least as the series' main gameplay style.
 

For one, in a 3D space, it inherently rails the player forwards in a near unbendable line, and makes the level design extremely limited; and as an avid fan of the 3D space and complex platforming/level design, this especially gets on my nerves, in Generations specifically. Sure, you can just... not boost... and it's somewhat better, kinda, but it still rails you forwards for the most part, and you really shouldn't have to withhold yourself from a key feature and full speed entirely, in a Sonic game, in order to get the best 3D experience out of it. In the end the damage is done, though, and plenty of the levels can be simplified into just hallways, either because they are hallways, or the way to be consistently good at the platforming is to make the more complex 3D sections into hallways, as the crow flies.

Secondly, you blast forward at the speed of light at the touch of a button, and stay at that speed for the rest of the trip. There's so many things wrong with this style of gameplay that people have brought up in the past over and over, but the key dislike of this for me, is that it makes the gameplay feel so... binary. Under ideal conditions, you either travel at this set speed, or you don't. And it applies to the rest of the gameplay, too. Under ideal conditions, you either pull off a quickstep/stomp/homing attack at the set speed, or you don't and lose it all. And yet... you start it back up with the press of a button. It's too easy, not engaging enough, and lacks all the nuances and depth of the physics-based gameplay of the classics, or even the adventures.

But on the other hand... you have games like Unleashed.

I gotta say that I don't want the gameplay format used for the mainline games, at all, as they're way too limiting a gameplay style for the series to live on. But, I think the main problem with the Boost, and what's honestly dragging it down from being good gameplay, of all things, is it's design philosophy.

Colors was supposed to be a refining of the Boost formula, taking to heart the "unlimited" criticisms of it and locking it behind wisp containers in order to make it more valuable. And due to the constant blocky platforming, the only place it could be used in was long stretches of flat ground. It isn't that bad, I guess, in that it's similar enough to classic Sonic's formula of platforming in a slow area, then running/rolling fast down a long "spectical" area, but the problem with that is that Sonic can pull off fast speeds in almost every area in the classics. The only way they fixed the problem of the boost/speed and platforming, is by completely divorcing the two from each other.

And Generations tried to go even further in trying to tackle wider, more "adventure-esque" stage designs and more complex level design. Now I have to commend them for trying their best in the level design departments, and as a plus the level design flows a lot better than Colors does, but in the end, due to being tied to the boost gameplay still, the ideal run is still to run in as straight a line as possible, do the tango with traveling at a set speed or not, along with the added element of boosting over said level design in favor of making levels as straight a line as possible still. Again, binary, easy, and uninteresting.
 

Unleashed, on the other hand, was the first 3D game to introduce the mechanic, and the way it handled it, was to make the stages as boost-centric as possible, and develop all the obstacles around it. The general gameplay loop is still there, as you either travel at a set speed or you don't, along with all the other nuances like blowing by enemies and being practically unlimited. But instead of trying to merge a bunch of different playstyles together to appease fans of every aspect of the series, it focused on what it was made for: do-or-die gameplay.

Yes, Unleashed is considered to be "Trial-and-error" gameplay as a result, but the thing that justifies this stance to me is this: there are plenty of things wrong with the boost, but the main problem imo, in any of the newer games, (this could be applied to any gameplay, really) is that it's not engaging. It's easy to do, it's a constant when pulled off, and it just means slowing down for a split second if you do get hit. And at the very worst it's... just... boring.

Now technically speaking, Generations has you pressing more buttons per second if you want to stay on the highest route at the fastest speed, but in Unleashed, the amount of times you have to jump is the bare minimum if you want to survive the stage. That alone raises the stakes significantly, and keeps you on your toes throughout the stage, despite the pretty long stretches of nothing it sports as well. To me, it feels like the metagame aspect of the gameplay is taking full advantage of itself here. It's a set speed, it's binary, and it's repetitive, but it's created an initial and constant challenge around itself that expects you to be mastering it every step of the way, in the same way that a rhythm game would play out. It's less about being able to set Sonic off at the standard speed of sound with a button and subsequently trying to do the best to hop up some blocks, and more about, "Yes, you are running at the speed of sound itself, blasting through everything. Now try not to die in the process. Cheers!"

Despite the gameplay loop between the two games not being all that different, I can't help but find Unleashed's execution of it all to be a lot more engaging, and befitting. Add to that the fact that you can actually level up the speed of Sonic to blistering fast speeds to cut down on your times, and I'd say you have a pretty decent boost-centric game overall.

It's just, SEGA made the gameplay like a rhythm game, people loved it for once, and SEGA thought it could capitalize on it by creating every Sonic game around it. And I reeeeaaally don't like that mentality they took with it all. I mean don't get me wrong, I still find the games made with it to be fun, but it's definitely not the best the games could've been if they didn't have the mechanic. I'd much prefer it if the style stayed off to the side in spinoff territory, alongside the Sonic Rush games as dedicated boost games rather than questionable middle grounds.

Of course, there's always the option of fixing the boost outright to be a more engaging and natural extension of typical Sonic gameplay, if SEGA refuses to leave it for good, but that's a whole other topic to get into. Just look at Green Hill Paradise Act II to get a better idea of how it might work, though; it's a pretty good proof of concept, if a little janky.

 

The use of 2D constantly is also a pretty big gripe for me, considering how much I want a good 3D game out of modern Sonic first and foremost. There are level design types that are only possible in a 2D space, to be sure, but that doesn't mean Sonic has to be constrained to a jarring 2D plane to pull them off; just rotate the camera 90 degrees along the Z-axis. Keeps the gameplay flowing without any sacrifices to game type, and keeps the level design open to a whole axis of depth. Just look at Mario 3D World and put some loops and ramps in it, for example.

... Buuuut I'm afraid it makes sense if the boost is included in the package, since it does guide the speed a lot better than a newcomer would ever be able to pull off. SLW has no excuse for it, though.

 

Overall, the boost games still have plenty of speed, platforming, and alternate routes to go down while running around at the speed of sound. So that automatically puts them among the classics and the adventures as the only 3 "types" of Sonic to really have what made and still makes Sonic, Sonic. As far as potential long-lasting directions go, I guess it isn't that bad of a situation to be in, and there is still plenty of fun to have with these kinds of games, too. Problem is, out of all the 3, these games are the least understanding of the 3 in how all those elements should come together, and invalidates a lot of the nuances that allow the elements to mesh so naturally in the first place. (i.e. speed is a reward because it's difficult to maintain) Generations came so close, having a great flow of platforming and speed, a good attempt at more open 3D levels, and an abundance of alternate routes to explore, in a way... but the boost is the one thing that gets in the way of it all coming together in the most natural way possible. Just the one, tiny factor of "press this button, and you're set for life" throws a wrench into it all from being the best it can be. And really, that's kinda depressing...

 

 

As for the drop-dash, though, I'm all over that. While I do find them fun, I must admit I'm not the biggest fan of the classics, and I think it's partly because I can't find the same joy in fluidity as everyone else does with them. It's especially odd considering I'll go absolutely mad for any similar physics in a 3D space, but I guess it just isn't enough on a 2D plane for me. *shrug*

The drop-dash looks like Rayman Legends-tier potential fluidity, though, and just makes so much sense, I'm surprised it wasn't added sooner in the series. I'm pretty sure the biggest failing point for any player in terms of keeping fluidity, outside of hitting the walls, is jumping up something and losing momentum, so it could be a huge factor in that regard, too. And yet, it isn't any more overpowered than the spindash, considering it takes just as long to rev up with how high you have to jump. It outright looks like it feels good to pull off in the footage, so I can only imagine how it actually feels to play with, and honestly? It's probably the main selling point in the game for me. Everything else about the game is absolutely fantastic for the fanbase (along with everyone else who lapsed over time) specifically, but this stuff? This is the kind of stuff I play these kind of games for, and I'm definitely looking forwards to trying it out.

[Shiromokuba]

1 hour ago, Maxtiis said:

I recall either a video, or a forum post made by Stealth that had something to do with Sonic 3 Remastered, where he expressed his wish that someday he'd be able to create 2-D Sonic games as a sub-series for Sega. Hopefully with Sonic Mania this'll become a reality. Seriously, with the marketing and positive press Mania's received since it was revealed, I'll be shocked if it doesn't succeed. 

That is pretty much my dream. Reading IndigoRush and Slingerlands post made me realize how inbetween I am in the series. I was born in the 90's but wasn't actually at a video game playing age until the mid to late 90's. I had a genesis when the Saturn was out and didn't even know the Saturn existed. So playing Sonic 2 and 3&K and Adventure aren't horribly far apart for me so I feel like I'm kind of part of both eras. I really liked the early era of Sega being part of Nintendo because 3D games were being released (although even then I was disappointed by Heroes) and 2D games were coming out that were trying new things. I honestly love all of the Game Boy Advance Sonic games as well as the Rush series (minus Genesis since I never played it!) and was sorely disappointed when Sega decided it wasn't worth it to make originally titles but just making after thoughts of their home console games (This doesn't mean Colors DS, Generations 3DS, or Lost World 3DS are terrible, I haven't even played them but I really want to!). 

Anyway I'm rambling. I thought the handheld era had some cool talent like Akinori Nishiyama working on them and it felt like they had freedom to experiment a bit with games like Pinball Party, Battle, and Rush in a way that didn't lead to anything offensively bad. I think there's a lot of potential there which is why I'm so excited for future Post Sonic Mania. My one worry is that with the Switch coming there won't be any true handheld games, one of the great things about those handhelds is that they have limitations and were cheaper which probably meant a lot of things that wouldn't exist otherwise could exist there. It feels like the end of an era.

[Falcon]

When I say I want an Adventure-esque game, I mean I want Sonic Team to build off Sonic's gameplay from Adventure 1 and 2. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, that's the best 3D experience Sonic Team has ever come up with. It's far more organic and fluid than anything they've made since.

I also find the argument that we don't deserve it (what?) because we haven't made good fangames (what?!) of Adventure utterly baffling. Not every game needs to be born from a genius like Whitehead. It's not like we are proving some kind of unrealised potential, Adventure 1 and Adventure 2 were both critical and commercial successes. They've aged badly and they play poorly as products now, but the concepts are still good when Adventure is at its best. Like, what kind of argument even is this? We can ask for an Adventure game and that's all we are committed to. We don't need to become developers and make the game ourselves. Sure, Sonic Team can decide to never make the game, and that's fine, but I'm still in my right to request an Adventure spiritual successor without being discredited because...I don't make fangames.

As for Sonic 06, you are right that it is basically Adventure 3, but it's incredibly backwards to say that we should therefore discount that formula forever because of that one disaster. I could similarly say that I don't think SEGA should promote another 2D Sonic game because both Sonic 4: Episode 1 and Episode 2 were terrible games. In fact, most Classic fans were worried that Sonic 4 would stop SEGA from releasing another Classic 2D game. So I don't see how this should apply to the Adventure formula when it (rightfully) didn't end up applying to the Classic formula. 

Also, most Adventure fans do know what we want thank you very much. We want gameplay that builds upon the Sonic action stages in Adventure 1 and Adventure 2. That really isn't a complex or difficult idea.

Why can't we live in a world where both Classic Sonic and Adventure Sonic co-exist? Is that too much to ask for?

[Ayliffe]

5 minutes ago, Falcon said:

Why can't we live in a world where both Classic Sonic and Adventure Sonic co-exist? Is that too much to ask for?

[Falcon]

Generations doesn't have Adventure gameplay, it has the Boost gameplay.

Almost certainly the same for '17, going off the trailer.

[Tracker_TD]

41 minutes ago, Falcon said:

When I say I want an Adventure-esque game, I mean I want Sonic Team to build off Sonic's gameplay from Adventure 1 and 2. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, that's the best 3D experience Sonic Team has ever come up with. It's far more organic and fluid than anything they've made since.I also find the argument that we don't deserve it (what?) because we haven't made good fangames (what?!) of Adventure utterly baffling. Not every game needs to be born from a genius like Whitehead. It's not like we are proving some kind of unrealised potential, Adventure 1 and Adventure 2 were both critical and commercial successes. They've aged badly and they play poorly as products now, but the concepts are still good when Adventure is at its best.

That's the thing; it's relatively commonly agreed now that SA1 and particularly SA2 are naff. On the other hand, it's relatively commonly agreed now that the boost era games are great. Why would Sonic Team want to go back to a gameplay style that nowadays garners heavy criticism than one they know is received well, particularly by folks who aren't necessarily Sonic fans?

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Like, what kind of argument even is this? We can ask for an Adventure game and that's all we are committed to. We don't need to become developers and make the game ourselves. Sure, Sonic Team can decide to never make the game, and that's fine, but I'm still in my right to request an Adventure spiritual successor without being discredited because...I don't make fangames.

Perhaps; but constantly going off on one at SEGA a la a certain beloved Facebook page isn't a good alternative. Even then, Mania happened because Whitehead pitched stuff. SA fans don't even necessarily need to make a full game (that'd be crazy, c'mon), but at least have a commonly agreed as good tech demo or engine of some sort (like the Retro Engine for Classic).

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Also, most Adventure fans do know what we want thank you very much. We want gameplay that builds upon the Sonic action stages in Adventure 1 and Adventure 2. That really isn't a complex or difficult idea.

See, but that's just what you think Adventure fans want. Honestly, I've only ever seen "SA'ers" comment on wanting the edgier narrative back; I don't think I've ever seen a consistent agreement on what the actual game would constitute. It's like Azoo said above;

9 hours ago, Azoo said:

- but who's to say that we can all come to an ultimatum and agree on that, saying "yes, those were the greatest aspects of the Adventure games and are the ideals to focus on"? Many here and outside will also argue the new cool characters, the demigod subplots, the edge factor, the HARDCORE CRUSH 40 VOCAL TRAX, the completely different gameplay styles that take up a large portion of the game (such as an affinity for treasure hunting or mech stages), the ideal of style over substance (and thus apathy for more involved or less linear gameplay), the extremely cool kid late 90s / early 2000s anime influence, the realism, heck even the voice actors from that time period are extremely vital and unquestionably necessary for a return to that "formula", all while also leaving room to believe that some of the things I mentioned as 'best' for an SA successor is trivial and overall unimportant.

Basically all of the above. Trying to pin down what an "SA3" would contain in a manner that would please the SA-fan crowd is nigh impossible. Whereas for Classic Sonic it's just a case of "get the bloody physics right" and arguably "don't shoehorn Modern into it", for the most part. 

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Why can't we live in a world where both Classic Sonic and Adventure Sonic co-exist? Is that too much to ask for?

Everytime someone pretends there's some "Adventure Sonic", I swear I lose a year off my life. At least design-wise, I suppose.

We live in that world, it's just that "Adventure" Sonic is called Modern Sonic. The gameplay changed sure, but just dropping the *currently* relatively acclaimed Modern style for this arbitrary "Adventure" style that nobody can seem to agree on (and folks have generally agreed on the base of which being naff nowadays) seems like a rather daft idea.

[The Deleter]

46 minutes ago, Falcon said:

Also, most Adventure fans do know what we want thank you very much. We want gameplay that builds upon the Sonic action stages in Adventure 1 and Adventure 2. That really isn't a complex or difficult idea.

It is when you consider that every Sonic game since Heroes has done just that, arguably to the same extent as SA2 did to SA1, so it just comes down to coming back to one or the other specifically. And that's just as helpful for the cause as picking a singular game preference such as Heroes in the first place with how different they are, and the few things that tie them together being undecided for the most part.

Also, I'm an adventure fan  as well, who honestly wants the same as you out of Sonic somewhat, but I've been around for a while, and from what I've seen, no, we really don't know what we want, lmao. If anything "multiple playable characters" is the most popular rally cry to get behind among the less toxic fans, and you can only imagine how fast that splinters apart, lol

[Falcon]

Most Adventure fans like myself don't want a literal Sonic Adventure 3. We want a game based on the Sonic action stages in Sonic Adventure's level design and control. I have no idea why everyone is making this seem far more complex and elaborate than it actually is. The freedom of movement which Adventure offers is far more organic, fluid and freeform than the Boost. Heroes controlled rather differently with the characters feeling like they were ice skating and stuck onto the floors and had far different level design which focused on combat to boot. Shadow controls more like Heroes than Adventure. Sonic 06 is more like Adventure, but it's a horribly broken game and is very difficult to use as a point. Adventure and Adventure 2 have their own control identity, a spindash with lots of utility and open control and levels.

Boost is only good at running straight down a corridor. It's very good at running straight down a corridor, but the Boost formula controls horribly for anything else. As much as fans praise Sky Sanctuary and Seaside Hill in Generations, the controls in Generations are not suited for 3D platforming in any way. Sonic is incredibly stiff and rigid, it's like making platforming sections in a driving game, it just controls horribly. Boost is great for running really fast down incredibly linear hallways, but it plays very poorly for anything else.

The Adventure formula has far more potential for platforming and more open levels. I want a spiritual successor to Sonic's action stages in Adventure, not Adventure 3.

[Ayliffe]

44 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Everytime someone pretends there's some "Adventure Sonic", I swear I lose a year off my life. At least design-wise, I suppose.

SEGA could always coat modern Sonic in as many pieces of game-mechanic-orientated jewlery as possible to make him look more like so-called """dreamcast""" sonic I suppose...

(I kid, but seriously Modern and """Dreamcast""" are completely 100% the same Sonic and always will be innit)

[Indigo Rush]

Falcon, buddy I get what you're saying. I feel ya.

That's all fine and good, I kind of agree with what you're asking for, too. But that's you, and just saying "well most Adventure fans REALLY want..." doesn't really sound the way we hear it across the rest of the web. You also glossed over other major things Adventure fans have clamored for...

Should there be hub worlds?

Can other characters be playable, if so, how similar or different should they play from Sonic?

On that note, which characters should appear at all?

Should Chao Gardens return?

Should it take place in a more alien-like Classic aesthetic, or the more Earth-like Adventure or Unleashed world?

Should Eggman be the main baddie, or is there a new Monster of the Week to spank?

And most importantly, how dark or edgy should the story be?

None of those are addressed, and whether you find that to be ancillary or not, it doesn't change the fact that for many others, this could be a huge issue for them, too. 

The Adventure movement falls apart as soon as this stuff gets brought up. Most will probably vouch for Chao Gardens, yeah, but it's been stated loud and proud on their end, gameplay isn't the only focus. For some, they don't even care about gameplay at all.

[Falcon]

8 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Should there be hub worlds?

No, I don't think so.

8 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Can other characters be playable, if so, how similar or different should they play from Sonic?

I think for the first game it should just be Sonic, let them get a hang of designing the best possible Sonic experience before throwing difficult variables in the mix.

9 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Should Chao Gardens return?

 

I don't mind the chao returning, but I'd rather not see the gardens back.

9 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Should it take place in a more alien-like Classic aesthetic, or the more Earth-like Adventure or Unleashed world?

I think more like the art design of Adventure 1 and Unleashed, it will help seperate the game from the (hopefully continuing) Mania series.

10 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Should Eggman be the main baddie, or is there a new Monster of the Week to spank?

I think it should focus on Eggman.

10 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

And most importantly, how dark or edgy should the story be?

I don't think the story should be dark at all, I'd rather see them building off the more light-hearted and 'adventury' elements of Adventure 1 rather than the dark elements of Adventure 1 and the edgy plot of Adventure 2. 

12 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

None of those are addressed, and whether you find that to be ancillary or not, it doesn't change the fact that for many others, this could be a huge issue for them, too. 

The Adventure movement falls apart as soon as this stuff gets brought up. Most will probably vouch for Chao Gardens, yeah, but it's been stated loud and proud on their end, gameplay isn't the only focus. For some, they don't even care about gameplay at all.

You are probably right. A lot of what I think is probably at odds with a lot of Adventure fans. I just do feel though, and this is entirely conjecture, that the majority of Adventure fans want to see Sonic's action stages in Adventure get brought back and built upon rather than Boost. I think that is the main point of contention. 

[Indigo Rush]

Okay, see Chao Gardens are one of the most consistent rallying cries of Adventure fans and even some other areas of the fanbase as well, and you'd rather not have them return?

This is precisely my point.

[Falcon]

Sure, and I accept that, but I really do feel that the most consistent rallying call is the return to the Sonic stage Adventure formula over the Boost. I really do feel that is the most pressing issue for the majority of Adventure fans and I think a lot of people inflate what Adventure fans want as essentially a mythical Sonic Adventure 3.

Even if those Chao Garden loving fans got the game I am asking for, sure they would be disappointed with the lack of Chao Gardens, but I think they would still be overjoyed with the return of the Adventure Sonic formula. 

Some fans of Mania were disappointed at the rehashing of past stages, but they were still overjoyed with genuine Classic Sonic gameplay returning. I think the core gameplay matters a lot more to fans than a lot of people let on.

[Indigo Rush]

Just now, Falcon said:

Even if those Chao Garden loving fans got the game I am asking for then, sure they would be disappointed with the lack of Chao Gardens, but I think they would still be overjoyed with the return of the Adventure Sonic formula.

I'm gonna need some convincing on this. I would be astonished if a majority of the target demographic didn't start a riot over their absence in an "Adventure" game.

2 minutes ago, Falcon said:

Some fans of Mania were disappointed at the rehashing of past stages, but they were still overjoyed with genuine Classic Sonic gameplay returning. I think the core gameplay matters a lot more to fans than a lot of people let on.

Rehashed stages are a design and aesthetic decision, Chao Gardens are a gameplay and mechanics decision. This isn't as comparable as you may think.

[Zippo]

14 hours ago, Celestia said:

...I feel like I'm rambling at this point, lol. Hopefully at least some of that made sense. The problem isn't in being more Classic, it's that Sonic Team's idea of "Classic Sonic" seems pretty shallow.

Exactly. I said this once and I'll say it again: With PS2017 coming after Mania, Sonic Team are going to have nothing but an uphill battle ahead when it comes to Classic Sonic. Mania is a 1-1 recreation of Classic Sonic, nay, an improvement of the Classic forumla. If Sonic Team's depiction of him isn't perfect or damn near close to what Mania is offering, I feel that is going to upset and anger a lot of fans. Generations' version of Classic Sonic physics is one of the most heavily derided aspects of that game, with Mania coming before Sonic Team's game, i feel like unhealthy expectations will take hold of many, and it could be a very decisive topic upon release.

13 hours ago, Slingerland said:

Also, on a related note for those of you who have played Mania, what do you think of the drop dash? Has it changed your perception of any of the original Genesis/Mega Drive games? I know that, as a speedrunner, it's hard for me to play those games now without it, haha. I feel like it's the perfect addition to Sonic's arsenal that both makes him equal to Knuckles/Tails, but has a good risk/reward balance to its use (unlike boosting, which I feel is OP).

I freaking loved using it. Unlike the instashield and super peel-out, it feels like a completely natural extension to Sonic's moveset, like it should have been there from the very start. It can't be spammed, and requires actual timing and skill to use. It actually feels odd going back to Sonic 2 and not having it. I would love to see a romhack adding into the Classic games.

[Mauricius]

1 hour ago, Indigo Rush said:

I would be astonished if a majority of the target demographic didn't start a riot over their absence in an "Adventure" game.

That's why calling the game "Sonic Adventure 3" probably wouldn't be such a good decision from SEGA. I'm sure people would be happy if the game just has Adventure like gameplay and tone. As for other stuff:

Hub worlds would be OK if they don't break the pace of the game, otherwise, stage-to-stage progression would be a better solution, like in SA2.

Multiple playable characters are welcome if they are polished and fun enough and if they don't break the flow of the game. The option to choose a character would be a nice and simple solution, although that would require the stage to be designed with different abilities in mind.

There could be both more realistic and more surreal levels. Most Sonic games are somewhere in-between anyway and stages like Pumpkin Hill don't feel out of place with other stages. It's not like all Adventure levels are realistic and most Classic stages don't have abstract palettes.

There could be a new Monster of the Week as long as the "final twist" isn't predictable or already used and Eggman actually has an important, threatening role. The problem was never in Eggman not being the main villain, it's that in every game, the real bad guy would appear at the end and Eggman would then cooperate with the heroes, which became repetitive. Its not like they can't mess up Eggman as the final boss. It was refreshing in Colors, but I don't think many people were pleased with Lost World's final boss.

While there are people who would like a dark story, the reason why so many Adventure fans are upset with the current direction is because the plots are too simple, even when they introduce a darker or interesting element it leads nowhere, the characterizations are off and the stories have many objective problems. Unleashed doesn't have "dark" elements like the Adventures do, yet I haven't seen people complain about it. The "edge" that has been massively misinterpreted really just means more action-packed adventures, intense and cool moments, not that the game needs evil uncontrollable monsters or having a 12-year-old killed by a soldier. Most people, Adventure fans or not, would be satisfied if the game simply has a well-written story, lighthearted or dark.

I really doubt that many people would be upset if the game isn't exactly what they imagined. The execution is key here.

[azoo]

Here's the thing.

When asking for "Adventure gameplay" to come back, I couldn't agree more. I loved the way Sonic played in those games and a revisit would be the best thing in the world to me. But you know, if you just said "adapt classic gameplay in 3D + homing attack, grinding & light dash", it'd be the exact same thing; and at this point I almost feel like that's an easier request for them than asking them figure out what making another Adventure game means.

But that leads me to a thought: maybe if Adventure fans took a more broken up approach on how they make their voices heard and cover one subject at a time, then it'd get somewhere better? Asking for a Sonic Adventure successor wouldn't cut it because it'd probably blow ass in many ways. Fans would have to take steps out of the "oh I want it like this game in particular" mindset and start stating what they want from a game regardless of where it came from.

Let's take a step into remembering what Sonic Team will probably do on their own. They could always possibly bring back hub worlds, they could always possibly introduce new characters tied to the plot, they could always possibly make twists on the gameplay / alt gameplay styles, and they could always do loads of cool action sequences in the stages. Even in their "safest" moments Sonic Team always leave room to revisit these ideas again, and those ideas tend to vary in popularity depending on who you talk to anyways. Let's not include them here.

What left is there to want? Let's break it down.

- Sonic's gameplay from SA1/SA2 is considered by many some of the best in the series; but it's got problems with automation and linearity. Maybe the point from SA fans should be "we want gameplay like Sonic in Adventure; a more traditional momentum-based Sonic 3D platformer where he can roll, Spin Dash, use the homing attack, light dash, and rail grind". Descriptive enough, but leaves room for whatever.

- Everyone here who grew up on the Adventures (or even to an extent the classics) loves the idea of playing as the other characters again. But the only problem is if we ask for another Adventure game to do that, they'll think we mean alternate gameplay styles. Heck, we can't even say that we want them playable at all without Sonic Team probably jumping to that assumption. So here's the next point to make: "we want other playable characters, but not alternate gameplay styles". Sound good?

- No one can agree on which Adventure game had the better tone or story, but many fans do know they're unhappy with the tone of current Sonic plots. The Adventure era (particularly SA2 - onward) took itself too seriously, what with over dramatic tones and backstories that went a bit too far off the edge (emphasis on edge); but the new era of Sonic plots often feel like they carry very little weight, and the dialogue / general writing practically forces you to never be invested because it never takes itself seriously enough (thanks Pontac & Graff!). So what we should rather say is, "we want another story that the player can take seriously". Stories can still be lighthearted and often whimsical, but yet also give you a lot to invest in. It's the reason why games like Mario Galaxy, Ratchet & Clank, or even Sonic 3 & Knuckles (a game without a line of dialogue!) can keep you immersed; excited about what happens next and interested in what happens to the characters.

- "We want Chao Gardens to return" is about the only thing we've come to an almost unanimous decision on, so that one's done before I even begin.

So that leaves us with four major points that people may be able to agree on the most, both from outside of and within fandom of the Adventure games. Once again, to put them in brief:

We want..

1 ) "Gameplay like Sonic in Adventure; a more traditional momentum-based Sonic 3D platformer where he can roll, Spin Dash, use the homing attack, light dash, and rail grind."
2 ) "Other playable characters, but not alternate gameplay styles."
3 ) "Another story that the player can take seriously."
4 )  "Chao Gardens to return."

Does this sound reasonable?

Because it does to me. But the thing is, there are going to be many who disagree with this list; either who believe there should be more on here (like crush 40 music lmfaooo), or because they believe some of the things mentioned here simply don't matter (the first point may not even mean a thing to many SA fans because of how their fav games from that era (Heroes or Shadow or 06) didn't have it).

But if you wanted a template that the fanbase can rally for, then here it is. It's not as easy as asking for a Sonic Adventure 3, but that's because it can't be. If you really want the good parts of the Adventure era but negating the bad parts, this is how it has to be addressed. I believe there's more than enough people who could at least agree on these points without much argument, but good luck getting the unanimity between fans working for it as well as it had for the classic fans.

Anyways what am I doing typing this in the Mania thread. What am I doing here at all? I'm gonna go work on my comic, my dudes. Peace.

[Indigo Rush]

I'm in agreement with you there, Azoo ol buddy ol pal o' mine; I'd wanna play that too, and I think a good bulk of fans would love it, too.

That's a best case scenario for sure, but sadly you're also right in that it won't cut it for everyone. And furthermore, what becomes of the more recent fans of games like Rush, Colors and Generations who enjoy the Boost formula? Will that be upended until there's a True Boosting Spirit fan movement, or will we have three kinds of Sonic games to catalogue now? 

I personally wouldn't mind a Classic-Adventure-Boost trifecta, but that's a solid three-way divide that kind of hurts that consistency thing Sonic needs so desperately.

[Wraith]

I feel like they should have just continued Sonic Rush on handhelds and let the natural increase in tech let them make games more resembling the console boost ones. 

 

A Sonic Rush on the Switch could probably keep up with Generations in the visuals department, couldn't it?