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Sonic Mania (August 15th 2017, Christian Whitehead, PS4, Xbox One, PC, Switch) - The New Classic

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7 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

I'm in agreement with you there, Azoo ol buddy ol pal o' mine; I'd wanna play that too, and I think a good bulk of fans would love it, too.

That's a best case scenario for sure, but sadly you're also right in that it won't cut it for everyone. And furthermore, what becomes of the more recent fans of games like Rush, Colors and Generations who enjoy the Boost formula? Will that be upended until there's a True Boosting Spirit fan movement, or will we have three kinds of Sonic games to catalogue now? 

I personally wouldn't mind a Classic-Adventure-Boost trifecta, but that's a solid three-way divide that kind of hurts that consistency thing Sonic needs so desperately.

True. Which is why my personal preference on the matter would be to make a hybrid gameplay style. A boost game with rolling / more slopes, and the boost itself being much less OP so the game could be more evenly paced and platformer-esque. But I guess I didn't consider that because it doesn't really fuel the argument I'm making for SA fans, lol.

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I feel like the Boost really shines as it's own central mechanic you have to maintain. I wouldn't want it in along with a bunch of other mechanics. The most fun boost games were when the games revolved around it entirely like Rush Adventure

It's a shallow as shit gameplay style, but I feel like the fun factor shouldn't be ignored, because we all got a kick out of Unleashed or Gens when we first played them. I think it's perfect for a side series.

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I think the key elements that made the Adventure games are all product of their time now. Most of it wouldn't work today. The early 2000' butt-rock, the slangs, the "over dramatic" stories... Back then, cartoon characters could get deeper stories and get away with it, see the Jak & Daxter games. Because it was the time of cartoon characters, and even then, they got cut off in early 2000 by mature games, like GTA 3.

The classic game are here again because they are... Classics. Simple and arcade games.

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2 hours ago, Zippo said:

Exactly. I said this once and I'll say it again: With PS2017 coming after Mania, Sonic Team are going to have nothing but an uphill battle ahead when it comes to Classic Sonic. Mania is a 1-1 recreation of Classic Sonic, nay, an improvement of the Classic forumla. If Sonic Team's depiction of him isn't perfect or damn near close to what Mania is offering, I feel that is going to upset and anger a lot of fans. Generations' version of Classic Sonic physics is one of the most heavily derided aspects of that game, with Mania coming before Sonic Team's game, i feel like unhealthy expectations will take hold of many, and it could be a very decisive topic upon release.

Project '17 has been in development longer than Mania (about two years longer is my guess). So there's zero chance Sonic Team could incorporate any designs/physics changes they could have learned from Mania's development with Pr '17 getting close to being finished. I also can't envisage that Sonic Team took any notice of feedback regarding how classic Sonic played in Gens back 2011 when it was released. So it's very likely classic Sonic will be similar to the Gens version, i.e a bastardised version of Modern Sonic with rubbish physics. So I don't have high expectation for Pr '17, at least in terms of classic Sonic.

The dream for me is for Mania to spawn a series of new 2d games and then for Sonic Team to stop including classic Sonic in the 3D games going forward.  

 

16 hours ago, Slingerland said:

Also, on a related note for those of you who have played Mania, what do you think of the drop dash? Has it changed your perception of any of the original Genesis/Mega Drive games? I know that, as a speedrunner, it's hard for me to play those games now without it, haha. I feel like it's the perfect addition to Sonic's arsenal that both makes him equal to Knuckles/Tails, but has a good risk/reward balance to its use (unlike boosting, which I feel is OP).

I played Mania's demo at SoS. It's definitely a very smart and harmless addition.

The main point of the drop-dash of course is to help maintain momentum/allow you to make quick-snap decisions in mid-air to allow the game to flow better and it's really easy to use. I can see myself using it as much as the spindash. I also like that it's not a forced gimmick like the homing attack often was in Sonic 4. It's purely optional but I think most people are going to want to utilise it. I can certainly see it appearing in future 2d games.

Funny enough I found myself craving the drop-dash when I replayed Sonic 2 where it would fit nicely with the more fluid level design. Although I don't miss it when playing the other classics. A few months ago I uploaded a playthrough of the "Sonic 1 Sonic Mania" hack which includes the drop-dash and it's fun to experiment with, although pretty useless in Marble & Labyrinth zone XD

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Azoo said:

- No one can agree on which Adventure game had the better tone or story, but many fans do know they're unhappy with the tone of current Sonic plots. The Adventure era (particularly SA2 - onward) took itself too seriously, what with over dramatic tones and backstories that went a bit too far off the edge (emphasis on edge); but the new era of Sonic plots often feel like they carry very little weight, and the dialogue / general writing practically forces you to never be invested because it never takes itself seriously enough (thanks Pontac & Graff!). So what we should rather say is, "we want another story that the player can take seriously". Stories can still be lighthearted and often whimsical, but yet also give you a lot to invest in. It's the reason why games like Mario Galaxy, Ratchet & Clank, or even Sonic 3 & Knuckles (a game without a line of dialogue!) can keep you immersed; excited about what happens next and interested in what happens to the characters.

Really, more than anything, I'd love it for this to return in Sonic games. I have a lot of problems with the Adventure style games, but the story/writing isn't one of them. Like, yeah they're usually not all that well written or executed, but I love how sincerely serious, overdramatic, and crazy those games got. No matter how dumb it got, even when a Sonic was kissing a princess or Shadow was being stupidly edgy, it always felt like some crazy shit was happening and that a lot was at stake. Super Sonic destroying a huge monster while stupid butt rock is playing in the background represents everything I loved about the Adventure style.

Which is what's missing with the Pontac and Graff stories. Those kinds of moments are gone from Sonic games now. Instead we have incredibly safe scripts that are just as unlikely to be criticised as they are to be memorable. There's just very little that's actually happening in those games aside from a barrage of half-heartedly written jokes.

It kinda seems like Project Sonic 2017 might be a return to the crazy dumb shit the Adventure-style games had. I'm skeptical because it kinda feels like they're trying to appeal to classic fans as well despite it clashing super hard with what's so appealing to Adventure fans. But still, hopefully it'll have some of what I loved about those games.

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1 minute ago, Nepenthe said:

I don't think it's necessary to go all the way into ironic cheese factor (I thought this was the problem people had with post-Unleashed games), because the original Adventure games weren't all that serious, and by serious I mean "dour," "uncolorful," "no levity," etc. They were sincere-ish, but they weren't "serious" most of the time. Half of SA2 which is constantly maligned as this super-dark game is basically stuff like Riders-esque trash-talking between rivals, situational comedy and jokes based on character, the teams having time outs, and exposition. Seriously, the opening of the game has Sonic break out of a helicopter while joking about airline food, before using a piece of debris to streetboard down San Francisco............ 

This is already not exactly "This War of Mine" territory.

I feel like the post Unleashed games would be more appreciated if something was happening on the screen besides the characters talking. Like, bad dialogue is one thing, but we've been there many times. The major change was the inaction. 

You're right that the Adventure games touch on this more than I give them credit for though.

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Just now, Josh said:

I feel like the post Unleashed games would be more appreciated if something was happening on the screen besides the characters talking. Like, bad dialogue is one thing, but we've been there many times. The major change was the inaction. 

You're right that the Adventure games touch on this more than I give them credit for though.

Well, yeah, that's also part of the problem for Adventure fans. Sonic is a platforming/action-adventure franchise...

About a nomadic character...

Who's known for running and acrobatics.

Kinda weird to have stories where the overwhelming majority of the time he's not doing much of anything. Personality cannot be the sole crutch of these games' stories, and I say that as someone who likes his Colors personality still.

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I feel like character interactions in the series were a potential gold mine that wasn't exploited enough before, so I like the idea of doing something like Colors sometimes inbetween major games. Colors was actually the perfect time for something like that, imo. 

The writing(again) just leaves a lot to be desired, which is a shame. They also kept doing it.

Sonic Mega Drive is a series about the characters on a fairly standard stop Eggman adventure but the writing and the character interactions being gold makes it far more fun than most of the Sonic story content before it imo.

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Thing is, fans bang on and on and on about story, but that's the least of my and many Adventure fan's concerns. A large problem is gameplay, as the Boost formula is shallow compared to the Adventure formula.

We need to bring the Sonic stages in Adventure's formula back and I think that would please a lot of people. The core gameplay of a beloved title is often overlooked. I think a lot of fans wouldn't mind a tonally different story (as long as it was good) as long as they got the Adventure gameplay back.

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1 hour ago, Jango said:

I think the key elements that made the Adventure games are all product of their time now. Most of it wouldn't work today. The early 2000' butt-rock, the slangs, the "over dramatic" stories... Back then, cartoon characters could get deeper stories and get away with it, see the Jak & Daxter games. Because it was the time of cartoon characters, and even then, they got cut off in early 2000 by mature games, like GTA 3.

The classic game are here again because they are... Classics. Simple and arcade games.

I feel like we live in a time where children's cartoons are deeper and more mature than ever.

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5 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

This is demonstrably false

What evidence do you have that the majority of Adventure fans value the story of the game over the core gameplay of Sonic's action stages in Adventure?

The whole criticism of boost to win and the praise of Adventure 1's feel and levels didn't come from nowhere.

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The evidence are these very forums. A plethora of fans, some of whom are no longer members, made it abundantly clear that the tone of the series was the core detriment, including art style and writing. There's a topic dedicated to 'dissecting' the series, and it's almost entirely focused on its narrative and very little about gameplay.

Finally, it's the bulk majority of Sonic fans in Retro and SSMB alike who have harshly criticized the Boost formula, not just Adventure-specific enthusiasts. It came from here.

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Sure, but I don't see how a few people represent the majority of Adventure fans really...

I'm an Adventure fan and am bothered more about gameplay going back to the Adventure formula than story, I don't think I and many like me are some really obscure creature.

3 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Finally, it's the bulk majority of Sonic fans in Retro and SSMB alike who have harshly criticized the Boost formula, not just Adventure-specific enthusiasts. It came from here.

That's absolutely not true. People have been criticising Boost long before specialist Sonic forums picked up on it, on Youtube, general forums and comment sections alike.

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1 hour ago, Nepenthe said:

I don't think it's necessary to go all the way into ironic cheese factor (I thought this was the problem people had with post-Unleashed games), because the original Adventure games weren't all that serious, and by serious I mean "dour," "uncolorful," "no levity," etc. They were sincere-ish, but they weren't "serious" most of the time. Half of SA2 which is constantly maligned as this super-dark game is basically stuff like Riders-esque trash-talking between rivals, situational comedy and jokes based on character, the teams having time outs, and exposition. Seriously, the opening of the game has Sonic break out of a helicopter while joking about airline food, before using a piece of debris to streetboard down San Francisco............ 

This is already not exactly "This War of Mine" territory.

Oh, that's not what I'm suggesting. I was more saying that, even when stuff got super ridiculous, it still felt like the story in those games had weight. I think Unleashed probably is probably the best Sonic game tonally.

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3 minutes ago, TimmiT said:

Oh, that's not what I'm suggesting. I was more saying that, even when stuff got super ridiculous, it still felt like the story in those games had weight. I think Unleashed probably is probably the best Sonic game tonally.

I thought Black Knight was better in that regard. I was never a fan of Chip's slapstick stuff.

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2 minutes ago, Marcello said:

I thought Black Knight was better in tone. I was never a fan of Chip's slapstick stuff.

C1K6oBUXAAAjwMU.jpg

Uh huh.

Also when I'm talking about the tone being great, I'm not talking about the overall writing and humor being great. It was serious enough for there to be weight to what's happening in the game, but light hearted enough to not feel too serious.

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12 minutes ago, TimmiT said:

Oh, that's not what I'm suggesting. I was more saying that, even when stuff got super ridiculous, it still felt like the story in those games had weight. I think Unleashed probably is probably the best Sonic game tonally.

I didn't mean to direct that to you; just to the idea that we need to keep writing this series as ironically and winkingly as possible. I completely agree that previous games had weight, seeing as how they went to lengths to establish stakes and character autonomy even amidst a crazy set of tones and plot circumstances. Also, Unleashed's tone is awesome. More of that pl0x.

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An unpopular opinion, but I've always thought that Sonic 2006 always had the best tone in the Sonic the Hedgehog series. A seriously underrated game!

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10 minutes ago, Falcon said:

Sure, but I don't see how a few people represent the majority of Adventure fans really...

That's absolutely not true. People have been criticising Boost long before specialist Sonic forums picked up on it, on Youtube, general forums and comment sections alike.

Uhm. We've been criticizing it before those games came out. What logic are you operating on, bruh?

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7 minutes ago, TimmiT said:

C1K6oBUXAAAjwMU.jpg

Uh huh.

Also when I'm talking about the tone being great, I'm not talking about the overall writing and humor being great. It was serious enough for there to be weight to what's happening in the game, but light hearted enough to not feel too serious.

Dunno what you're trying to say with that image. Are you saying it's stupid or that you think him wanting to die is too dark?

For your last sentence, you can say the same about Black Knight.

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