Sonic Mania (August 15th 2017, Christian Whitehead, PS4, Xbox One, PC, Switch) - The New Classic

[Nepenthe]

Just now, Katia said:

An unpopular opinion, but I've always thought that Sonic 2006 always had the best tone in the Sonic the Hedgehog series. A seriously underrated game!

Another unpopular opinion, at least I would presume you would dislike it, is that ban dodgers should stay banned.

[FriendBot]

Just now, Marcello said:

Dunno what you're trying to say with that image. Are you saying it's stupid or that you don't like him wanting to die?

For your last sentence, you can say the same about Black Knight.

More, like it comes out of nowhere AND it's stupid. I mean, it's already crazy enough that Sonic is in the story of King Arthur but having an notKnuckles attempting suicide is really pushing it, kinda like how the whole government conspiracy/Black Arms shtick really bogged down the Adventures and Shadow as a character.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Marcello said:

Dunno what you're trying to say with that image. Are you saying it's stupid or that you think him wanting to die is too dark?

For your last sentence, you can say the same about Black Knight.

Suicide is a pretty super dark thing to include in a game about cartoon animals. Also I didn't even include the way Sonic responds to Knuckles almost committing suicide.

Jesus christ Sonic.

[Marcello]

I don't see the problem. It's fairly generic knight honor stuff.

And I like Sonic's response. :-/

[Slingerland]

3 minutes ago, Katia said:

An unpopular opinion, but I've always thought that Sonic 2006 always had the best tone in the Sonic the Hedgehog series. A seriously underrated game!

Remember when I said you can't say "all fans" because there are always pockets of people who like objectively terrible products? Welp... rip again, y'all.

Now that I mention "all fans," I'm seeing a number of people replying in favor of Adventure with "most fans/a lot of fans/etc want this and this..." and that's the inherent problem is everyone speaking on behalf of each other. Again, I've done a lot of events this past year and I've talked to so many people in person where they are more honest and less aggressive than they are on forums. There hasn't been a single, unifying opinion. Quite the opposite and that's where the problem lies at the moment. It's difficult from a developer perspective to give people what they want when things are aaaaalllll over the place (and rarely ever presented in a perspective of a developer or, like, politely either). 

Speaking of talking to people, I've had a run in or two with popular Twitch speedrunners (I forget their usernames) but they've told me that Sonic Mania looks like their dream game. Would any of you like to see a competitive speedrunning community around Mania and, if so, what steps would you think Mania would need to take to make it ideal? Gameplay modes, integration, etc? 

[Indigo Rush]

Say that to someone who's seen and dealt with suicide: it isn't funny. 

[Jango]

I think the key elements that made the Adventure games are all product of their time now. Most of it wouldn't work today. The early 2000' butt-rock, the slangs, the "over dramatic" stories... Back then, cartoon characters could get deeper stories and get away with it, see the Jak & Daxter games. Because it was the time of cartoon characters, and even then, they got cut off in early 2000 by mature games, like GTA 3.

The classic game are here again because they are... Classics. Simple and arcade games.

I feel like we live in a time where children's cartoons are deeper and more mature than ever.

I agree with you, there are a lot of "children's cartoons" with deep and mature stories, moral lessons and such, like the Pixar's movies. But in the end, they will always keep on being children's cartoons, even if they deal with adult subjects... It's how it is.

[Indigo Rush]

3 minutes ago, Slingerland said:

Would any of you like to see a competitive speedrunning community around Mania and, if so, what steps would you think Mania would need to take to make it ideal? Gameplay modes, integration, etc? 

Yes.

Ranked modes, some leaderboards, the traditional time attack, and versions of zones with cutscenes removed so the player can focus on going at it. Style and Score runs too, maybe?

[Marcello]

4 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Say that to someone who's seen and dealt with suicide: it isn't funny. 

I wouldn't compare the thing with Knuckles to someone with depression and has actually dealt with suicide like that.

[Wraith]

7 minutes ago, Slingerland said:

Speaking of talking to people, I've had a run in or two with popular Twitch speedrunners (I forget their usernames) but they've told me that Sonic Mania looks like their dream game. Would any of you like to see a competitive speedrunning community around Mania and, if so, what steps would you think Mania would need to take to make it ideal? Gameplay modes, integration, etc? 

I'm not sure how feasible this is, but games like Mario Kart have a thing where you can download a player's "ghost" and see their exact pathway through the course and how they got the time they did. That would be what I'd like to see for a mode like that but that's a pretty big undertaking.

[Slingerland]

2 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Yes.

Ranked modes, some leaderboards, the traditional time attack, and versions of zones with cutscenes removed so the player can focus on going at it. Style and Score runs too, maybe?

Since it has been confirmed publicly that there are mini-bosses and bosses, should those stay in Time Attack mode or be replaced with sign posts?

[FReaK]

2 minutes ago, Slingerland said:

Since it has been confirmed publicly that there are mini-bosses and bosses, should those stay in Time Attack mode or be replaced with sign posts?

keep them in. imho i think bosses belong to the game, and they also should be treated like that. if you speedrun the whole game - then beat the bosses like its supposed to be done.

[azoo]

25 minutes ago, Slingerland said:

Remember when I said you can't say "all fans" because there are always pockets of people who like objectively terrible products? Welp... rip again, y'all.

Now that I mention "all fans," I'm seeing a number of people replying in favor of Adventure with "most fans/a lot of fans/etc want this and this..." and that's the inherent problem is everyone speaking on behalf of each other. Again, I've done a lot of events this past year and I've talked to so many people in person where they are more honest and less aggressive than they are on forums. There hasn't been a single, unifying opinion. Quite the opposite and that's where the problem lies at the moment. It's difficult from a developer perspective to give people what they want when things are aaaaalllll over the place (and rarely ever presented in a perspective of a developer or, like, politely either). 

To be fair, that was a ban-dodger intentionally trying to start trouble. (Speaking of which, how's it going Pixel?)

I feel like we need to look less at what Adventure-specific fans want to come back from those games, and what the Sonic fanbase as a whole would want back from that era. Stories with more exciting / interesting narrative, more of a traditional kinda Sonic gameplay (but in 3D), greater focus on other playable characters, and Chao Gardens are notable points that most could agree on; not only here but within Retro and other outside communities as well. Sure, there are going to be a lot who desire things that lead to more arguments than not, but that's why I suggested whoever's willing to start forming a consensus, rather than whatever most of the SA era fans spend their time doing.

I mean, it's either do that or take a gamble at never seeing these aspects of the franchise again. Why not try our best anyways, despite the mess?

On topic..

Quote

Speaking of talking to people, I've had a run in or two with popular Twitch speedrunners (I forget their usernames) but they've told me that Sonic Mania looks like their dream game. Would any of you like to see a competitive speedrunning community around Mania and, if so, what steps would you think Mania would need to take to make it ideal? Gameplay modes, integration, etc? 

Full on leaderboards a la Sonic CD's would be rad af, which I'm sure is happening. Ghost racing, like Indy suggested, would also be really great. 

[Zaysho]

6 minutes ago, TimmiT said:

Suicide is a pretty super dark thing to include in a game about cartoon animals. Also I didn't even include the way Sonic responds to Knuckles almost committing suicide.

Jesus christ Sonic.

I don't think "it a game with cartoon animals" automatically puts heavier subject matter off the table. I think in context, the scene plays out fine and it fits with the game's themes of living life to the fullest and all that jazz. Sure, Sonic's being a jerk about it, but it's not like he's being a dick for the sake of it. He gives Gawain a hint that there's more to being a knight than serving a king and then leaving him to mull it over.

Besides, Sonic took his swords :V

[Soniman]

54 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Is that because these fans don't care about gameplay, or is it because fans think the gameplay is actually okay right now and thus see no reason to complain about it?

What even is the gameplay "right now"? The last game was a highly experimental and not well received so I don't think their going back to that, Generations was 6 years ago, Boom is a offshoot, and we've been told this title isn't a sequel and will most likely have something new all together. It's why I assumed people were throwing ideas out because right now Sonic is in another transitional period and anything can happen. 

 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

I don't think "it a game with cartoon animals" automatically puts heavier subject matter off the table. I think in context, the scene plays out fine and it fits with the game's themes of living life to the fullest and all that jazz. Sure, Sonic's being a jerk about it, but it's not like he's being a dick for the sake of it. He gives Gawain a hint that there's more to being a knight than serving a king and then leaving him to mull it over.

Besides, Sonic took his swords :V

Fair enough about the cartoon animals thing, but also holy shit that scene did not play out fine. That's not how you deal with someone who almost commits suicide.

(Anyway this topic is about Sonic Mania and not Black Knight so I'll just stop now)

[Zaysho]

1 minute ago, TimmiT said:

Fair enough about the cartoon animals thing, but also holy shit that scene did not play out fine. That's not how you deal with someone with suicidal tendencies.

(Anyway this topic is about Sonic Mania and not Black Knight so I'll just stop now)

I mean, it's fiction, it's in character, it had a point to make. But, nah, I understand what you mean. I'm not saying this is how one should deal with such a situation in real life.

And, sure. I won't drag this out, either. Y'all can keep doing your thing.

[Nepenthe]

9 minutes ago, Soniman said:

What even is the gameplay "right now"? The last game was a highly experimental and not well received so I don't think their going back to that, Generations was 6 years ago, Boom is a offshoot, and we've been told this title isn't a sequel and will most likely have something new all together. It's why I assumed people were throwing ideas out because right now Sonic is in another transitional period and anything can happen. 

The context of my post was that there was disagreement over whether or not Adventure fans cared more about the Adventure games' gameplay or their narrative, with the implication being that a presumed lack of care was the result of them prioritizing story over gameplay in an actual development cycle. My input was that it's possible Adventure fans haven't complained as much about gameplay in any context not because they will be happy with a shit game with a good story, but rather that they probably believe that- regardless of what the "gameplay is" going forward-- Sonic Team themselves can now be reasonably counted on to deliver a passable or fun experience, meaning there's less actual need in discussion to focus on the quality of the gameplay versus the story which is much more contentious.

It wasn't really meant to pinpoint what the gameplay of the 3D games actually is.

[Slingerland]

Back to the topic of speedrunning, I don't know if any of y'all remember my review of Sonic Generations on the Stadium front page but I thought that the 30-second trial mode was the most genius thing in that entire game. What are your thoughts on 30-second trial? Would Mania benefit from this mode or some variant of it?

[Indigo Rush]

I'm not sure if I'd utilize it to it's fullest potential, but I'd definitely be cool with it in

[Osmium]

Lol are people seriously saying not-Knuckles is acting legit suicidal there? 

Like dude, it's not like Sonic is telling someone with actual clinical depression to get over it, what I got out of it is Sonic telling not-Knuckles that one defeat isn't the end of the world, even if not in the nicest terms. 

[Slingerland]

Can we, like... stop talking about this?

Let's talk about my speeeedruuuunnnning questions I proposed, please. What would work? 30-second trials? Eeeehhhh?

[azoo]

Agreed. We let this get far further off topic than it should've been. Granted for good reasons (the topic of finding unity amongst Adventure fans is an interesting one), but once again, suited best for a different topic.

Let's start to veer back in the direction that this baby's supposed to go, starting now boyos.

We good?

Good.

 

----

Anyways.

3 minutes ago, Slingerland said:

Let's talk about my speeeedruuuunnnning questions I proposed, please. What would work? 30-second trials? Eeeehhhh?

30 second trials were an extremely fun addition to Generations, yeah. If something like that were in Mania, that would be THE bomb diggity.

Though I also wondered if an arcade mode esque "time extend" mode would be fun too. Like, there's a set timer countdown upon starting the stage, and then there's monitors (or checkpoints?) that extend your time. If you move as quickly as the game expects from you, you'll make it to each in good rhythm and beat the level.

IDK, just musing around at this point. :v

[Indigo Rush]

30 second trials would help a lot, I think. Also maybe ranking modes for how many rings collected in a certain amount of time, or Score Attacking, too?

The aforementioned ghosts would be awesome. I wanna race the developers lol

[Guest]

I'd love it for 30-second trials (as well as regular best time/score leaderboards) to be back.