Sonic Mania (August 15th 2017, Christian Whitehead, PS4, Xbox One, PC, Switch) - The New Classic

[TB100]

9 minutes ago, Azoo said:

Please refrain from single-word or image-only posts. Just throwing that out there for you.

On topic, I personally have no strong preference for any stages from S3&K as they're all good, but if you made me vote I'd pick Hydrocity and Lava Reef. Now, if we're talking Sonic CD though... I think we all know what stage should be in.

Opps, Sorry i have kinda forgotten about that rule. i'll do better in the future.

[Falcon]

Quartz Quadrant needs to be in just for the music. A remix which include the present and good future themes would be awesome.

If the team can finally make the stage worthy of the music, even better.

[TheOcelot]

5 hours ago, Ajavalo said:

I looked back at this video yesterday:

I'm now thinking they'll put in Angel Island Zone to give that Tee Lopes remix an use.

No chance, that would be incredibly lazy. If Angel Island is included then Tee Lopes would remix AI in Mania's style of music. Mind you, that's assuming Sonic 3's music in Mania is remixed and not completely new pieces.

I like all Sonic 3 zones so I don't mind which ones they choose. However, I want at least Carnival Night, Ice Cap or Launch Base included because; 1) they are good stages & 2) I'm burning with curiosity as to whether Tee Lopes will be allowed to remix the music or whether it would have to be brand new. 

If it's brand new then I think this would send out a message that our only chance of getting Sonic 3 remastered is if someone makes a completely new soundtrack, which I would accept if this is what it takes to get a release, but I digress...

 

I've noticed recently a lot of love on this forum for Quadrant Quadrant, more specifically it's visuals and music. I can see this being one of the choen CD's zones (I'm guessing two will be re-imagined from each game). I think there's a lot more they can do to improve on the level design.

As for Sonic & Knuckles I REALLY REALLY REALLY want Lava Reef reimagined. Beautiful stage, good level design and nice music. I was originally hoping Sandopolis would also get the nod, but I guess it's unlikely now with Mirage Saloon's reveal. I would instead go for Mushroom Valley. Yeah, Taxman please use the beta name instead of "Hill" haha.

[Falcon]

I don't see why the team wouldn't be able to use tracks from Sonic 3 considering SEGA owns the right to the music in the game and continues to digitally sell an unaltered Sonic 3. 

There's no hard evidence to suggest that SEGA doesn't own the music aside from that Sonic and Knuckles PC Collection ages ago. That's not representative of SEGA now, and let's not forget that the hardware issues involved with the midi sound files could be the reason for the soundtrack change. All other 'evidence' is conjecture.

Ice Cap is almost certainly going to be in.

[JezMM]

4 minutes ago, Falcon said:

I don't see why the team wouldn't be able to use tracks from Sonic 3 considering SEGA owns the right to the music in the game and continues to digitally sell an unaltered Sonic 3. 

There's no hard evidence to suggest that SEGA doesn't own the music aside from that Sonic and Knuckles PC Collection ages ago. That's not representative of SEGA now, and let's not forget that the hardware issues involved with the midi sound files could be the reason for the soundtrack change. All other 'evidence' is conjecture.

Ice Cap is almost certainly going to be in.

There's no hard evidence but there is some pretty medium-strength evidence.  It could be coincidence but it just as easily could not be coincidence that the only tracks that were replaced in the PC version have also literally never been re-used, remixed or released officially in any form other than the original unaltered rom of the game.  It is not an uncommon thing that rights relating to licensing can be applied indefinitely to products that are released in their original form, but not in altered forms.  For example, TV shows that have licensed music when watched on TV, even in repeats, while that music is replaced in the DVD version, because they only licensed that music for the ORIGINAL version.  Sonic 3 may very well be the same case (the PC version is not an emulation of the original rom, but all re-releases since have been) where SEGA have the rights to distribute the music ONLY as part of that original, unaltered rom.

Ultimately we're waiting for the presence of any of the latter three Sonic 3 zones in Mania, plus their original music, to finally clear this up.  In the event that this does happen, hopefully one of the Mania devs will be able to shed some light on whether they did or didn't need to sort out rights issues.

[Falcon]

If the PC Sonic and Knuckles isn't an emulation, then what is it?

What are the tracks people are thinking of? Because one post above doubted Angel Island and that was remixed in Smash Bros?

[Clewis]

12 minutes ago, Falcon said:

If the PC Sonic and Knuckles isn't an emulation, then what is it?

I believe the PC collection is essentially a remake running off of an engine based on the one used for the original Sonic and Knuckles. Think of the recent mobile ports of Sonic 1, 2, and CD as a modern example of the PC collection, as they are also remakes utilizing a new engine.

Quote

What are the tracks people are thinking of?

The zone tracks that were replaced in the PC Collection. For example: Ice Cap and Launch Base.

[JezMM]

15 minutes ago, Falcon said:

If the PC Sonic and Knuckles isn't an emulation, then what is it?

What are the tracks people are thinking of? Because one post above doubted Angel Island and that was remixed in Smash Bros?

It's not an emulation as in the PC is producing it all itself.  It's not pretending to be a Mega Drive.  The PC version isn't rebuilt from the ground up like Taxman/Stealth's Sonic CD/1/2 but same basic concept.  That's part of why they are able to replace the soundtrack with midi music to begin with.  Essentially, the theory is that the music that SEGA doesn't own was only licensed for use in the original game program. Thus anything that isn't that exact program, the music is not licensed for.

I think the above poster mentioned was generalising when they said "if the Sonic 3 music is new compositions" because the offending tracks are Staff Credits, Competition Menu, Carnival Night, Ice Cap, Launch Base, Knuckles' Theme and Act 1 Boss (maybe one or two others I've forgotten but definitely not Angel Island, Hydrocity, Marble Garden or the other boss themes).  These are the tracks that replaced in the PC version and none of them have ever re-appeared since in any Sonic media that wasn't a straight emulation of the original game.

[Falcon]

I was skeptical at first, but this is intriguing.

Perhaps you are right!

[Slingerland]

I think everyone has a bit of tunnel vision on past stage selection and strictly going off of a stage's notoriety isn't the best way to go about it. Angel Island would be doubling down on "green" levels and das borin', ayyyyy. Remember how Generations was all green levels and city levels? When you go strictly off stage notoriety or the stage's music, you're pigeonholing yourself into a pretty same-y roster.

While, yes, Green Hill opens the game up to welcome everyone back to Sonic, Mania can give a lesser-known level an opportunity to shine. That said, what are some under-appreciated levels and mechanics that could potentially become standouts with a Mania re-working? Someone earlier mentioned Wacky Workbench, for example. Would a new context give that level's central concept the chance to prove itself viable? 

 

[azoo]

Like said, I'm more than okay with Quartz Quadrant making that comeback. It's probably my favorite stage in the whole series.

But if Wacky Workbench is revisited instead, then I'd love that too. A lot of fans would seem kinda concerned with it (since it's so openly disliked), but I'm sure they'd find a way to better realize it's gimmicks where Sonic CD's level design fell short.

[Falcon]

Thing is, Quartz Quadrant isn't just a great pick because it has kick ass music  it has other aspects in its favour.

For one, it's thematically distinctive; there aren't any other jewel mining stages. 

Also, the level in CD never matched the quality of the music, both acts are too short and feature lots of BS enemy placement. Then there is the problem of the underdeveloped warp pipe and falling block gimmicks.

Mania could finally give us a quality Quartz Quadrant Zone that lives up to the soundtrack and unique art theme. 

And let's not brush this over, they could do some really cool things visually with the stage (gleaming diamonds and jewels etc).

[FReaK]

If we go by diversity in classic stages and ASSUME that we get 2 stages per classic game, then I think we will get following stages:

Sonic 1:

Green Hill (obviously)

Marble Zone. - there is no zone in the other games that plays like marble zone, so i think it could be a good choice.

 

Sonic 2:

Mystic Cave Zone - can you think of any other cave zone? I can't, so I assume that there will be either a new one, or they go for Mystic Cave.

Chemical Plant Zone  - obvious reason. it is a long time fan favourite, it would be pretty neat to explore it when it's destryoed or something

(Casino Night Zone) - unless there is a new original casino stage, I think they will use Casino Night instead of Chemical Plant.

 

Sonic 3:

Hydro City Zone - fan favourite, no problems with music copyright, overall great stage.

Ice Cap Zone - fan favourite, there is no other ice stage in the classics, at least when they dont create a new one.

(Carnival Night Zone) - same as casino night zone. there has to be at least one Casino Stage..tradition and all.

 

Sonic & Knuckles:

Flying Battery Zone - since mushroom hill is a green stage, mirage saloon rules out sandopolis...there is not much more to choose.

Lava Reef Zone / Hidden Palace - same as flying battery. maybe plot relevant?

(Death Egg ruins?) - just dreaming there. maybe.

 

Sonic CD: is for me the hardest to choose...

Quartz Quadrant: many want it and i can't see why it should not be implemented.

Tidal Tempest - aka. the better labyrinth zone. we don't have many water stages in the roster i chose, so i think it could be a good choice.

 

these are my thoughts about the classic zones. I would choose it like that if I want diversity, but I dont know what original stages are planned. maybe I'm dead wrong with my assumptions.

[Jango]

It's because QQZ is so... I don't know... For me, it's misterious. The outdoor area with the forest and mountains in the background, it's beautiful and relaxing. The first time you exit the cave, it feels so nice. And the indoor caves with the quartz are magical and nice to look at. Even the badniks are cool and satisfying to destroy.

I also adore the misterious and primitive aesthetics of the past.

And the music (all variants, but especially present and good future) is my favorite piece of music from the classic games.

So yeah, for me, QQZ in Mania would be awesome sauce.

[TheOcelot]

1 hour ago, Slingerland said:

While, yes, Green Hill opens the game up to welcome everyone back to Sonic, Mania can give a lesser-known level an opportunity to shine. That said, what are some under-appreciated levels and mechanics that could potentially become standouts with a Mania re-working? Someone earlier mentioned Wacky Workbench, for example. Would a new context give that level's central concept the chance to prove itself viable? 

Wacky Workbench - keep the bouncy floor gimmick but make it's appearance less frequent, make the level flow better; less pillars hanging for the ceiling etc. Oh and bring back the Angel statue!

Marble zone - open the level up more and add multiple routes for better pacing. Perhaps using ideas from Sonic CD's cancelled R2 "ruin" themed stage. Dem rainbow waterfalls!

 

Sandopolis - more open level design, more ghosts XD

Hill Top - give this dull zone a make over. Better music, better visual, & level design. Perhaps make the lava rising gimmick more frequent and hazardous?

[Shiromokuba]

13 hours ago, JezMM said:

I'm sure several strong Sonic fans here could write you a paragraph or twenty on how they're different, myself included, but I think the straightforward answer here for you would be that you just asked a silly question because clearly Falcon thinks yes they are different or else they wouldn't be arguing for what they're arguing.  Even if you think they play the similar it's clear that a large subset of fans don't feel they do.

Your choice is to either accept that and/or argue for a compromise gameplay style, or argue in the name of convincing a wide portion of players who prefer Adventure gameplay to Generations gameplay that they are somehow mistaken about the personal experience they had with the gameplay of each.

Of course, your post wasn't actually really asking them, it was either intentionally provoking them to wind them up a bit or was another way to say "I think they're too similar to argue for a return to that style", in which case it would've been better to just say that and then make your case as to why.

I really was just asking how different Falcon thinks they are. Yikes.

[JezMM]

20 minutes ago, Shiromokuba said:

I really was just asking how different Falcon thinks they are. Yikes.

You phrased it very much in a way that implied you already had an opinion on the matter rather than simply wanting to know his.  Apologies if my post came off as overly confrontational for your intent.

[Indigo Rush]

To shift the topic a little, I'm wondering something.

There's the blue combi-ring from Chaotix (and several fangames, hoho) making a return in Mania; but one small thing that irked me about it is that when collected, there's no sound byte, nor a visual indicator that it's in use. What would you guys think about there being a sound effect, or what kind of indication should there be while it's active? The 'Rings' HUD turning blue, maybe? Some sparkles surrounding the playing character?

Maybe I'm being too nitpicky. What are your guys' thoughts? Is it fine the way it is?

[FriendBot]

It would help to indicate that you do got the Combi-Ring item without being told explicitly about it.

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

30 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

To shift the topic a little, I'm wondering something.

There's the blue combi-ring from Chaotix (and several fangames, hoho) making a return in Mania; but one small thing that irked me about it is that when collected, there's no sound byte, nor a visual indicator that it's in use. What would you guys think about there being a sound effect, or what kind of indication should there be while it's active? The 'Rings' HUD turning blue, maybe? Some sparkles surrounding the playing character?

Maybe I'm being too nitpicky. What are your guys' thoughts? Is it fine the way it is?

I really like the blue HUD idea. Seems unique and a really clear indication. I feel like changing the player character's sprite in any way would probably be a bit much, as the item's effect is relatively minor.

[Diogenes]

A small icon or the HUD turning blue would be nice, but I wouldn't be too bothered if there wasn't an indicator; it's not so significant an effect that it really needs something there to remind the player. It communicates itself well enough at the one time it needs to, when you get hit, anyway.

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

I had a thought about Sonic Mania - do you think they might improve the Tails-following mechanic at all? I mean, personally, I actually love Tails following me around and never play without him if I can help it (it's just so endearing to have my little buddy along for the ride, especially when he helps out!), but I know that's not necessarily a popular opinion and that he can be annoying for various reasons. So it would be really interesting to see if they'd be interested in improving the A.I. or changing the mechanics to increase Tails' helpfulness. Sorry if this has been discussed before, as I have a vague feeling it might have been.

[Diogenes]

Aside from making an easy way to call him in for an airlift, I'm not sure what more there is to do with AI Tails. I wouldn't want him doing anything too significant, like running off on his own to grab rings or bop robots, because that's what I, the player, am supposed to be doing.

[Sonicfan7]

What character will you guys play as first? Sonic, Sonic & Tails, Tails or Knuckles? 

I'm going with Sonic solo. Wonder if you have you to complete the game as Sonic first before using other characters.

[TB100]

I'm doing Sonic & Tails. gotta have the bros together.