Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Cyrus]

6 hours ago, JingleBoy said:

As some have theorized (and I feel as though I was the first to come up with this - ) I have a feeling that we won't even be playing as Classic Sonic. The way he appears and how he acts in that teaser (SFX and all) gives way to believe that he may just be some sort of companion character that helps you out in gameplay, similar to Runners. Perhaps you'll be able to summon them during a level and the aim is to build up different characters throughout the game.

If this were to happen, I'd wonder if Runners was a glorified preview of a side feature. The buddy system at its core is a great ability boosting mechanic.

[TheLaw34]

Just now, StaticMania said:

I don't really see it as bad design, Sonic games always tend to have slower sections that rely more on skill than memorization...but just as well Sonic has also always been about memorization and reaction. You get better the more you play and it doesn't reward trying to rush through levels and it either punishes you via inconvenience or you just get hurt...maybe die. These slower sections are often short too, just to brace the player for the next part of the level.

As I said you don't have to remove them however I think it's better if there is always a method that rewards you with speed and not waiting. A really simple exampl is that if there is a platform going up you could wall jump instead to get there faster. I do agree that not requiring memorization is just my preference and I won't argue about it. However I still feel that while a stage should  be easier if it's memorized it should not be totally dependant on it.

In short Have slow sections but give a skill player a method of still going fast.

[Darinian]

Wall jumps aren't hard, also skill players? What do you mean by that, I mean by your definition of what should be than would it not be creativity?

[Muscles Maximum]

Complexity doesn't necessarily mean skill. Either way, his hypothetical example of using wall jumps as an alternative way to get through an area where you'd otherwise have to wait is just fine. That's certainly still more rewarding and intuitive then just sitting there waiting for a platform or whatever.

[TheLaw34]

4 minutes ago, flaresakithasol said:

Wall jumps aren't hard, also skill players? What do you mean by that, I mean by your definition of what should be than would it not be creativity 

"your definition of what should be than would it not be creativity" Sorry but don't get what that line meant. Also as I said before the wall jump thing was a quick simple example. The Point being that if the game has a way to get through it that requires no input it should also have a way that lets you go faster. The games already have tons of things like this all I am saying is that times where you HAVE to stay still and wait should be non existent. 

Also sorry if me saying skill playered gave the wrong impression all I meant to say is that if you are familiar with everything at your disposal you should have a method to get through quickly while not completely stopping and not totally losing momentum.

[Darinian]

5 minutes ago, flaresakithasol said:

 What do you mean by that, I mean by your definition of what should be than would it not be creativity?

Translation: Wouldn't finding a different way be creativity?

[Diogenes]

Honestly I think it's the essence of all good platformers, not just Sonic, to have the player keep moving and keep "doing" as much as possible. Not that there can never be times when you have to stop, and setting up a rhythm of high action and low action is good, but having to stop and wait around for things is never the part of the game people enjoy.

[MegasonicZX]

6 minutes ago, Sam Sanderson Sandleberger said:

As I said you don't have to remove them however I think it's better if there is always a method that rewards you with speed and not waiting. A really simple exampl is that if there is a platform going up you could wall jump instead to get there faster. I do agree that not requiring memorization is just my preference and I won't argue about it. However I still feel that while a stage should  be easier if it's memorized it should not be totally dependant on it.

In short Have slow sections but give a skill player a method of still going fast.

going by that example wouldn't that be a waste of level design though? Since having the platform there would be pretty useless if you could just effortlessly wall jump it, unless its like a really tight frame for frame wall jump then sure but otherwise it feels kind of pointless. Most sonic games normally have a way to avoid scenarios like these entirely though, mostly from just simply taking a pathway that skips it entirely so you can still keep that momentum and flow.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, MegasonicZX said:

going by that example wouldn't that be a waste of level design though? Since having the platform there would be pretty useless if you could just effortlessly wall jump it, unless its like a really tight frame for frame wall jump then sure but otherwise it feels kind of pointless.

Choice is important in games. Giving the player two ways to solve a problem gives them a choice to make; do they take the safe and easy platform at the expense of speed, or do they take the faster walljump route that requires more skill? Obviously still it needs to be balanced so that there isn't an overwhelmingly "right" choice, but it doesn't need to come down to being either effortless or frame-perfect.

Plus in a game like Sonic, if the walljump is influenced by momentum, the player may only have one chance to get it right. In that case there needs to be a "default" way to continue.

[TheLaw34]

16 minutes ago, flaresakithasol said:

Translation: Wouldn't finding a different way be creativity?

hhhmmmn not exactly. it's just being familiar with what is at your disposal which I think is worth rewarding. But I suppose technically it is creativity.

 

15 minutes ago, MegasonicZX said:

going by that example wouldn't that be a waste of level design though? Since having the platform there would be pretty useless if you could just effortlessly wall jump it, unless its like a really tight frame for frame wall jump then sure but otherwise it feels kind of pointless. Most sonic games normally have a way to avoid scenarios like these entirely though, mostly from just simply taking a pathway that skips it entirely so you can still keep that momentum and flow.

Well sure, like I said the wall just was just to say that there should be a second method I expect that the other one is at least slightly more difficult. However just the fact that the player is doing something instead of nothing  is more difficult and the platform could be there to do nothing more than make the player feel that they are making the smart moves.

As I said you should not be staying still because you did something wrong. staying still should always be due to you are doing something wrong. Even if you choose a path that is longer 

[Darinian]

So in your mind mind make it a for ward backward side to side endless runner

[TheLaw34]

2 minutes ago, flaresakithasol said:

So in your mind mind make it a for ward backward side to side endless runner

no not is not in anyway what I mean. I am simply saying you should be active and not have to be pressing nothing and just waiting in a sonic game. There are stages in N+ and mario where you do not have to stop moving but they aren't endless runners.

[Darinian]

I'm sorry it's just how you made it sound, my bad.

4 minutes ago, Sam Sanderson Sandleberger said:

There are stages in N+ and mario where you do not have to stop moving but they aren't endless runners.

Stages and not full games

[TheLaw34]

Just now, flaresakithasol said:

I'm sorry it's just how you made it sound, my bad.

Stages and not full games

If all the stages in the game were like that they still would not be endless runners. To be clear I am not saying stopping for half a second or slowing down at all should be forbidden and a huge taboo.  I want platforming, however there being an option that doesn't involve stopping is optimal.

[Darinian]

So, shave off a few seconds instead of sitting there? I guess time bonuses would be more rewarding

[Meta77]

Something i always found funny and unless your a real good speed runner that does not use glitches most sonic games have platforming. Sonic 1, marble zone before the eggman boss, spring hill, scrap brain dear lord, sonic 2 had the outrunning of the chemicals in chemical plant, the casino zone, what was the airship called it escapes me, sonic 3 and knuckles, death egg, flying battery, lava reef, and on and on. Sonic is about speed yes but he also has a ton of platforming slapped in which is not a bad thing.

[VolatileMike]

One thing I'd like to bring up. At one point in the teaser, we see two details about the street suggesting that it has been under attack and/or abandoned for a long time. 

1. Barbed wire fencing, supported by tires.

2. Cattails growing from the brick road. Public works would never let that fly!

Im willing to bet that the game's premise will involve Eggman already having conquered something a while before the start of the story. 

[StaticMania]

Just now, Meta77 said:

...but he also has a ton of platforming slapped in which is not a bad thing.

I believe the guy's talking specifically about slower moments where you have to wait on moving platforms, most commonly used on vertical platforming sections. They force you to stop and wait...that's kinda bad in a way.

[TheLaw34]

1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

most sonic games have platforming . Sonic is about speed yes but he also has a ton of platforming slapped in which is not a bad thing.

I never said anything about not wanting platforming, if anything I want more platforming

Sonic is about the joy of movement, speed, flow and momentum. So of course platforming goes perfectly with him. I'm just saying I hope this games let's go of platforming that involves you staying still and waiting to be carried or waiting for something to come into reach. You can do great platforming and still have a level that is possible to flow through without stopping. Having classic sonic in this makes me worry since he is usually the bigger perpetrator of this. 

I hope that parkour makes a return because I think it will make it easier to create levels that always give you something to do to keep you moment and not have to stop. Sadly there was no real hint of it in the trailer ;(

Platforming does not mean stopping. 

[nikfan]

I think they did it best in games like Adventure, where you could go exploring and getting goodies with platforming if you really wanted, but if you just wanted to blow through the game, they never stopped you and they encourage you to go on that specific main path to get more speed. Not always that is the case, but usually it is. 
At the same time, I wouldn't mind some platforming in this game, getting up buildings/mountains should be exciting for this kind of game with ruined enviroments. Imagine climbing up a building only to see a giant Egg Robo right near you, that shit is exciting. But, that is just my opinion.
And I don't think that stopping is always bad with Sonic games, look Sonic Unleashed Day Stages usually never stopped and it was just boost to win a.k.a kinda boring if you were looking for something deeper. I think stopping can be there, but for the reason of taking different pathways or finding more goodies, cause even the Classic games did it like this, I especially remember the Sonic 2 Emerald Hill example(Did a little playthrough yesterday), where you need to jump across three slow moving platforms just to get to some rings and a checkpoint. 

[TheLaw34]

46 minutes ago, nikfan said:

And I don't think that stopping is always bad with Sonic games, look Sonic Unleashed Day Stages usually never stopped and it was just boost to win a.k.a kinda boring if you were looking for something deeper. I think stopping can be there, but for the reason of taking different pathways or finding more goodies, cause even the Classic games did it like this, I especially remember the Sonic 2 Emerald Hill example(Did a little playthrough yesterday), where you need to jump across three slow moving platforms just to get to some rings and a checkpoint. 

There are tons of stages in platformers that have no boost and manage to have platforming that does not require stopping unless the player is too slow or uncordianated and need to choose to stop think and then proceed. sitting on a platform and doing nothing is just as bad if not worse than holding x and doing nothing so they are both problem that I I hope to see minimized in both games. There is not reason that taking a different path need to require stopping there are a million different ways to make an engaging platforming section that let's you change paths while keeping your momentum.

I do really hope that the spindash comes back so that we have an instant way to change direction which would make multiple pathways in every direction easier to implement.

[Salamander]

At any rate, whilst Iizuka may emphasise that Project 2017 isn't a literal sequel, I think it will almost certainly be a spiritual sequel to Generations, adopting many of the same ideas and gameplay style.  What is implied in it not being a sequel - implicitly, not Generations 2, given the focus on Classic Sonic - is a lack of narrative continuation from Generations, and, probably most importantly of all, that the levels will all be original rather than being revisits, which lest we forget was perhaps the major element of Generations after the presence of Classic Sonic.

[Mel]

Sam is only saying that standing on a moving platform and doing nothing clashes with the pace of a Sonic game.

 

Not sure why so many people are strawmanning this as 'I don't want any platforming'.

I would say, in defense of Mania, the moving platforms are very brief and they are placed next to beautiful scenery. So i think the devs know not to go overboard with it.

8 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

What are you basing the chances of likelihood on when the only character that has consistently appeared since Sonic Team pushed the cast aside has been Tails?

Knuckles and Amy have literally been in every Sonic game since Generations. That is 5 years.

So I think it is pretty likely.

[Marcello]

16 minutes ago, Mel said:

Knuckles and Amy have literally been in every Sonic game since Generations. That is 5 years.

So I think it is pretty likely.

But there's only been one Sonic Team game since then...

[Mel]

Just now, Marcello said:

But there's only been one Sonic Team game since then...

Yeah, but Boom does not live in a vacuum.

All Boom games and the cartoon have Amy and Knuckles.

It will likely influence the decision to add them.

Anyway, I'm getting pretty tired of people thinking my idea is crazy when Amy and Knuckles will be in the game when they have been in Generations, Lost World, Rise of Lyric, Shattered Crystal, Fire and Ice and the cartoons.