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Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"


Badnik Mechanic

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That analysis video makes me want to pop in the Adventure games and see how they physically act and feel right now in comparison to Generations. I haven't played them in years.

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9 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

That analysis video makes me want to pop in the Adventure games and see how they physically act and feel right now in comparison to Generations. I haven't played them in years.

Quite better I must say. There's fewer ramps but they definitely work better and the character reacts to slopes in a meaningful way. If you haven't done it already, try the Windy Valley beta reconstruction, it's the best that Sonic Adventure has ever been imho.  Rolling is broken, though, and I think that's one of the reasons they went with another approach for the other levels. (This is not to say that Adventure is ultimately more fun than Generations, since the former is pretty old and clunky by today's standards, but yeah).

I have a feeling that Sonic Team really tried adapting classic Sonic in 3D with Adventure, failed because the physic system was too complicated for the Dreamcast, and then realized they could do without, so they just did.

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I believe this was brought, but just in case you've missed during the storm, here's a reminder that the story will probably be ass again:

 

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18 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

That analysis video makes me want to pop in the Adventure games and see how they physically act and feel right now in comparison to Generations. I haven't played them in years.

You'll notice that the Adventure games have a fair bit of scripting when it comes to loops and a few other areas (paths of wind in Windy Valley, for example), as in you're forced around then and will most likely fall to your death if you try to avoid that scripting. This is down to the the technical limitations of the Dreamcast mostly, and the fact that it was the first real foray in to 3D Sonic. Slopes work very well though. A great place to test them is the beginning of the second part of Emerald Coast, where you can run along the wall only if you have enough speed. Ramps aren't scripted, although they are often preceded by boosters.

Another part of Emerald Coast where you can test the ramps and slopes is towards the end of the second part. You come across a huge ramp that you're expect to hit boosters before being able to run up. But if you manage to go faster with a spindash, Sonic goes way high into the air and you'll be able to take a shortcut bu landing on the next island over. As Sonikko shows in his video, you can't do this in the current games. You'll either go too slowly and fail the ramp, or the scripted event kicks in regardless of your speed and you reach a pre-set height and distance with no control. 

8 minutes ago, Jango said:

I believe this was brought, but just in case you've missed during the storm, here's a reminder that the story will probably be ass again:

Please, Jango. One bombshell at a time. 

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And people still had hope! I'm the most optimistic guy when it comes to games, but f*ck me Sonic Forces... It's like Sonic Team took note of everything we didn't wanted/asked them not do it and made a game out of it. This is an amazing feat. The guys at Japan are really bold.

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IIRC in the Adventures the physics still work well enough. The levels are just kind of designed to string you along anyway because Sonic team doesn't have a lot of faith in the engine. You can still take advantage of them to make insane jumps and shit especially in SA1 though.

The modern games are a lot more rigid than the Adventure games even IMO. 

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1 minute ago, Josh said:

IIRC in the Adventures the physics still work well enough. The levels are just kind of designed to string you along anyway because Sonic team doesn't have a lot of games. You can still take advantage of them to make insane jumps and shit especially in SA1 though.

The modern games are a lot more rigid than the Adventure games even IMO. 

I'd struggle to call that an opinion - it's pretty much fact. You have more control over Sonic in the Adventure games that you do in the current games.

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1 hour ago, Josh said:

Odyssey has shown 4 levels to Sonic Forces's 2. It's not that big of a difference. It would be just as clear how much better Odyssey looks if Mario had shown 2 and Sonic had shown 4.

Is that all? When I say showing levels I don't mean showing particulars the way Sonic Mania has shown all of Green Hill Act 1. I just mean the Mario Odyssey trailer gives you a taste of the different locales you'll visit even if only for a few seconds. I find that kind of marketing more appealing than zeroing in on one or two levels and showing a big chunk of them 

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14 minutes ago, JezMM said:

I don't understand this idea that the character creator will breathe a whole new life into OCs and creativity.  It's cool and fun, but when I make my character I'll be designing my Sonic Forces OC, not a general Sonic OC.  Their appearance in the game will always be limited compared to what one can do with their imagination outside of the game.  A very very small percentage of people will be able to transfer existing OC concepts from their mind into this game.

So whenever people are like "finally an appreciation for OC creation!" it's like saying Mario Maker was an appreciation for Mario fan games.  Like... not really, the homemade variant will always be massively more versatile than what's in the game.  All good fun but not something the OC-loving community MASSIVELY benefits from.

Indeed. Unless the system has a Spore-esque level of customization (would certainly help to explain the time they took making this), then you're only going to end up with general approximations of your ideas unless your character is already really simple.

Like, I'm 99.9% sure I cannot make this guy. Or even this guy. Not that it would particularly matter as it's also not looking as if they're going to give the different species appropriate or really wild power sets, unless of course that's going to be the result of a bunch of gadgetry and- coincidentally enough- Colors-esque level design that's outfitted with a bunch of different level segments to take advantage of the different Wisp powers. My dog was the Yellow Drill for years before Sonic Team so mercilessly stole the idea, but considering all we've seen so far as a more swingy and methodical offshoot of Boost gameplay, I'm not holding my breath.

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3 minutes ago, JezMM said:

I don't understand this idea that the character creator will breathe a whole new life into OCs and creativity.  It's cool and fun, but when I make my character I'll be designing my Sonic Forces OC, not a general Sonic OC.  Their appearance in the game will always be limited compared to what one can do with their imagination outside of the game.  A very very small percentage of people will be able to transfer existing OC concepts from their mind into this game.

So whenever people are like "finally an appreciation for OC creation!" it's like saying Mario Maker was an appreciation for Mario fan games.  Like... not really, the homemade variant will always be massively more versatile than what's in the game.  All good fun but not something the OC-loving community MASSIVELY benefits from.

This was basically my reaction, to be honest, Earlier in the thread, Nepenthe posted:

2 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

Again, I don't think OC creators are suddenly entitled to Sonic Team's blessing and acknowledgement just because they make OCs. 

I'm not 100% sure there was absolutely no way some form of official sanctioning of OCs could've been done. Like, if SEGA was producing a Sonic MMO, then there'd be a decently good reason for a character creator similar to what's seen here. The problem is the context. An MMO would mainly be side missions with the main cast only tangentially related in order to provide focus and agency to the players, but Forces is supposed to be another main entry to the franchise. An avatar character breaks the cast dynamic the games had from both a story and gameplay perspective, and to top it all off, isn't even that versatile a system, from what we've seen. Who knows, maybe the PC version will have ravenous modders making the customization options more numerous and creative, but that doesn't even count as official SEGA sanction anymore, leading recursively back to, "you might as well just do it yourself."

The people I'm seeing getting excited for this are either OC fanatics in general who'll take anything if it means they get to self-insert their character into a canon Sonic story, or ironic memesters who associate the Sonic brand with its memes more than its history, finding it hilariously fun that you'll technically be able to make Coldsteel or Sonichu canon right next to Sonic in gameplay. I really don't get who this is benefiting either.

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33 minutes ago, -Ace- said:

Thought this was nice.

 

 

 

 

 

Welp, that proves my theory.

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21 minutes ago, Writer's Blah said:

I'm not 100% sure there was absolutely no way some form of official sanctioning of OCs could've been done. Like, if SEGA was producing a Sonic MMO, then there'd be a decently good reason for a character creator similar to what's seen here. The problem is the context. An MMO would mainly be side missions with the main cast only tangentially related in order to provide focus and agency to the players, but Forces is supposed to be another main entry to the franchise. An avatar character breaks the cast dynamic the games had from both a story and gameplay perspective, and to top it all off, isn't even that versatile a system, from what we've seen. Who knows, maybe the PC version will have ravenous modders making the customization options more numerous and creative, but that doesn't even count as official SEGA sanction anymore, leading recursively back to, "you might as well just do it yourself."

The people I'm seeing getting excited for this are either OC fanatics in general who'll take anything if it means they get to self-insert their character into a canon Sonic story, or ironic memesters who associate the Sonic brand with its memes more than its history, finding it hilariously fun that you'll technically be able to make Coldsteel or Sonichu canon right next to Sonic in gameplay. I really don't get who this is benefiting either.

Well, I'm coming at this from the perspective that Sonic Team didn't need to do this at all. Again, I have 3 OCs. I've participated in numerous RPs with them, one of which has been going on for around 15 years now between me and a friend. I've written stories with my OCs, read stories with other's OCs, made art and comics with my and my friend's OCs, and for fuck's sake I've got a fursuit outfit of the goddamned dog- I've run nearly the whole gamut of creative Sonic fan behavior using my OCs within reason.

Yet I have never, in all of my time engaging in this kind of fandom and fanon, felt any sort of need for Sonic Team to give my characters validation in a game for three reasons: One, I don't need a corporation to validate my artistry. My art is worth it because it gives me reason to live and others joy from experiencing it. Sonic Team has no relevance to that. Second, I don't see any mechanical or narrative need for the kind of self-insertion this CaC gimmick allows in this particular franchise. It's a mascot platformer, it's about the damned mascots and their exploits. And third, because I know a little bit about how corporations act with artwork produced for their properties I realized well enough that my bird and dog would not be mine anymore if they were actually inserted into a game as established characters like I imagine them in my head. No thanks I say, and again I can't imagine that most of the fandom felt otherwise. This is the first time I'm hearing that there was a significant outcry for this to even exist at all (not that I particularly believe there was.)

But, assuming for some reason that Sonic Team was in any way to officially sanction OCs- like, I don't know, an OC creator was blackmailing Iizuka or something- there would've been other ways that would be more palatable. I mentioned a mobile app earlier where you could create your own character in Sonic Boom's island and just romp around Toon Town style. I'd dig it! If they had enough activities like races, mini-games, quests and things, or even new islands, they could honestly give it that old-school Disney Afternoon show feel. I wouldn't ask them to do an MMO though for all the reasons you stated, and on top of that I wouldn't be able to imagine how Sega could justify enough money on the server space needed to approach anything resembling competition to WoW which has still cornered the market. I mean, if Nintendo won't give us a Pokemon MMO, we sure as hell ain't getting a Sonic MMO from Sega for good reason. 

And another idea: why not another artwork contest? You want to talk about honoring the fans? I got my artwork selected to put into Black Knight during the contest they held before its release. Quality of the game notwithstanding, the fact that my art is in an official product that hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people have seen, with no caveats on the gameplay, and that I got sent a free copy as further appreciation, really means something to me as a fan. It's like a little feather in my cap. Forces' general apocalyptic gimmick would've been a nice reason for people to show off their art and OC skills by making artwork showing how their characters were helping out or dealing with the issue. On top of that, they would be able to do it without the shackles of a naturally limited character creator, and with Sega overseeing the contest you'd still have some quality control. Showing the best and coolest OCs helping out with their imaginative powers through quality fan art? I'd enter that kind of contest again.

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16 minutes ago, Operationgamer17 said:

What theory?

This game is most specially aimed at kids, rather than being for all ages.

 

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8 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Well, I'm coming at this from the perspective that Sonic Team didn't need to do this at all.

Ho boy, you wanna talk about things that Sonic Team didn't have to do? They never had to give into the demands of adolescent children to have a Sonic character carry a gun, and we got Shadow the Hedgehog out of that. They never had to appeal to the critics saying Sonic should more closely follow Mario's footsteps, and we got Lost World out of that. Sonic 4 was the result of people complaining that games like the Genesis classics weren't being made anymore, which were more valid complaints, but it did lead to the muddying of brand confusion we're seeing come full force in Forces now. Granted, we probably wouldn't have gotten Mania or Generations either, so there's something good that came out of that one.

 

14 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Yet I have never, in all of my time engaging in this kind of fandom and fanon, felt any sort of need for Sonic Team to give my characters validation in a game for three reasons: One, I don't need a corporation to validate my artistry. My art is worth it because it gives me reason to live and others joy from experiencing it. Sonic Team has no relevance to that. Second, I don't see any mechanical or narrative need for the kind of self-insertion this CaC gimmick allows in this particular franchise. It's a mascot platformer, it's about the damned mascots. And third, because I know a little bit about how corporations act with artwork produced for their properties and I realized well enough that my bird and dog would not be mine anymore if they were actually inserted into a game as established characters like I imagine them in my head. No thanks, I say, and again I can't imagine that most of the fandom felt otherwise. This is the first time I'm hearing that there was a significant outcry for this to even exist at all (not that I particularly believe there was.)

Nepenthe, you've gotta understand. You're working within your sector of fanwork with a good head on your shoulders, with enough maturity to recognize that there's a healthy, reasonable degree of separation between series canon and the fan universe that you and your friends RP in. For all sakes and purposes, your universe suits the needs of the stories you want to tell taking place within the Sonic universe, taking as many liberties as you want to best suit the story being told. (I haven't seen your logs, but I wouldn't doubt that it's more interesting than what's going on in the series right now, but that's neither here nor there.)

The point is, you understand the separation, and you don't need Sonic Team's validation in order for your stories and characters to feel legitimized. That's cool, but the problem is, a lot of younger OC creators, especially the ones that tend towards the side of recolor OCs, do not share your sense of self-satisfaction. You hear stories about kids who send their drawings via e-mail to SEGA, pitching their character to be featured in the next Sonic game as a main character. It's cute, but it becomes a lot less cute when you realize exactly how many kids out there are asking for the exact, same thing. This is Shadow the Hedgehog all over again. SEGA has declared in the past that their primary demographic in making Sonic games is kids from 7-13. These are the same kids sending those e-mails. That's why I said before that Sonic Forces feels so focus-tested; it's hitting to aim as many demographics as it can by attempting to appeal to every corner of the Sonic fanbase, those kids included.

And I'm not saying we should cut off their avenues to creativity, because they should absolutely be able to feel satisfied in just having their artwork make others happy. It's not my personal thing, but I absolutely understand the appeal behind it. I'm not pointing my fingers at the kids asking for the CaC, I'm pointing at SEGA who thought it'd be a good idea to actually make that thing a reality.

34 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

But, assuming for some reason that Sonic Team was in any way to officially sanction OCs, there would've been other ways that would be more palatable. I mentioned a mobile app earlier where you could create your own character in Sonic Boom's island and just romp around Toon Town style. I'd dig it! If they had enough activities like races, mini-games, quests and things, or even new islands, they could honestly give it that old-school Disney Afternoon show feel. I wouldn't ask them to do an MMO though, for all the reasons you stated, and on top of that I wouldn't be able to imagine how Sega could justify enough money on the server space needed to approach anything resembling competition to WoW which has still cornered the market. I mean, if Nintendo won't give us a Pokemon MMO, we sure as hell ain't getting a Sonic MMO from Sega for good reason. 

And another idea: why not another artwork contest? You want to talk about honoring the fans? I got my artwork selected to put into Black Knight during the contest they held before its release. Quality of the game notwithstanding, the fact that my art is in an official product that hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people have seen, with no caveats on the gameplay, and that I got sent a free copy as further appreciation, really means something to me as a fan. It's like a little feather in my cap. Forces' general apocalyptic gimmick would've been a nice reason for people to show off their art and OC skills by making artwork showing how their characters were helping out or dealing with the issue. On top of that, they would be able to do it without the shackles of a naturally limited character creator, and with Sega overseeing the contest you'd still have some quality control. Showing the best and coolest OCs helping out with their imaginative powers through quality fan art? I'd enter that kind of contest again.

No real objections over here, I think those are both great ideas, the mobile game one especially, since I think it'd help scratch that itch those kids are feeling for their character to be legitimized someway in an official SEGA product. To boil it down to one point, this whole situation really is just SEGA being SEGA again.

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The thing is, I never even sent my shit to Sega when I was in that age bracket. I literally felt no reason to, and I can't imagine that I was in the minority in that regard.

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Well, I dunno then. I can't think of a way to gather the demographics to see how many fan letters SEGA's gotten over the years requesting their character to be featured in an upcoming game. I imagine it's a lot due to the fact that the CaC is even a thing, but I can't really say for sure. :unsure:

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You have to imagine that there has to be millions of individual of pieces of fan art, comics, stories, and roleplays featuring original characters in the Sonic universe on the Internet at this point all coming from hundreds of thousands of people. I can't personally imagine their inboxes being filled with a comparative amount of e-mails begging for CaC, particularly since I've never actually seen this demand expressed on gaming or Sonic-centric sites, and also because Sega have never publicly acknowledged it at fan events and conventions. You would think, at the very least, someone, somewhere, would be able to pick out any instance of a fan asking Aaron "Yo, when are we getting a character creator?" is this were as popular a request as people are now trying to play it as. Hell, we've seen more cheering for the Chao Garden.

Occam's Razor tells me that the people who really wanted this in the games as a necessity are a statistical minority, and that Sega put it in to pander completely of their own volition because why the fuck not? Not like you losers wanted to play as Tails or Knuckles.

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18 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

You have to imagine that there has to be millions of individual of pieces of fan art, comics, stories, and roleplays featuring original characters in the Sonic universe on the Internet at this point all coming from hundreds of thousands of people. I can't personally imagine their inboxes being filled with a comparative amount of e-mails begging for CaC, particularly since I've never actually seen this demand expressed on gaming or Sonic-centric sites, and also because Sega have never publicly acknowledged it at fan events and conventions. You would think, at the very least, someone, somewhere, would be able to pick out any instance of a fan asking Aaron "Yo, when are we getting a character creator?" is this were as popular a request as people are now trying to play it as. Hell, we've seen more cheering for the Chao Garden.

Hmm, I think the reason for that is that people were never asking for a CaC specifically. Think of it like how Mii Fighters became a thing in Smash 4. Nintendo received countless e-mail requesting characters like Goku, Luffy, SpongeBob, and the like to become included in the next Smash Bros game. Realistically, there was no possible way those characters could be included in the game, considering that they're not even video game characters. But to quell those desires, they decided that the character creator already included on Nintendo devices, Miis, would be the perfect framing device to have fans of those characters be able to play as them in some capacity.

Analogously, SEGA wasn't receiving requests for a create-a-character system in the next Sonic game. What they WERE getting was an email from Shadowfan96, saying, "Hey SEGA, I have an idea for the newest character in the next Sonic game! His name is Cruise the Hedgehog, and he's a badass who has time traveling powers to defeat all his enemies," yada yada. Now think hundreds, if not thousands of similarly worded e-mail, all requesting their character to be placed in the game. Obviously, SEGA isn't actually going to include Cruise exactly as requested. But what they can do is allow the next Sonic game to have a playable avatar character who becomes best friends with Sonic and helps him save the world from a dangerous Eggman. CaC is the system that SEGA is using to allow all these fantasies to come to life at once.

43 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

The thing is, I never even sent my shit to Sega when I was in that age bracket. I literally felt no reason to, and I can't imagine that I was in the minority in that regard.

I might be putting this bluntly, but I think you're giving kids too much credit. There are honest, intelligent, mature ones out there for sure, but I think the ravenous one with unrealistic dreams and goals far outweigh them.

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No critic would hate Tails or Knuckles if Sega made them play like Sonic in his own stages. Sega's at fault for making the critics hate Sonic's friends because their gameplay is always worse than Sonic's in the 3D games.

I still remember clearly that I used an SADX hacking program on PC so I could play as Knuckles in Sonic's stages, because the Treasure Hunting stages weren't as fun.

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1 minute ago, Detective Kaito said:

No critic would hate Tails or Knuckles if Sega made them play like Sonic in his own stages. Sega's at fault for making the critics hate Sonic's friends because their gameplay is always worse than Sonic's in the 3D games.

Basically this. Also because of dumb stories and there being too many characters. Extra characters are disliked so much because they're always put into the games terribly.

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2 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Basically this. Also because of dumb stories and there being too many characters. Extra characters are disliked so much because they're always put into the games terribly.

Yeah, and they keep misinterpreting that fact which is the problem.

To be honest they keep misinterpreting everything. The dislike of friends was due to their poor implementation, nobody hated them for the sake of it (in the beginning). People yearned for the classics due to their superior mechanics and design, not because of their aesthetics. Their understanding seems only to be superficial.

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