Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[JezMM]

2 hours ago, Mark1 said:

Maybe Classic is in this as well since he's slowly becoming SEGA's main mascot again...? He seems to be appearing in more merchandise than his Modern counterpart, which is a shame since his design is also appealing with a decent market as well.

Classic appears in all the merch aimed at adults, which is what is most visible to us longtime fans.  Boom stuff is aimed at kids, and Modern is uhh... he's around.  But prior to Boom his merch was aimed at kids lol.  Pyjamas, pencil cases, that sorta thing.

SEGA's main mascot is Sonic as a whole, I don't think Classic is replacing Modern as the face of the company, but the two are becoming interchangable.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, JezMM said:

Classic appears in all the merch aimed at adults, which is what is most visible to us longtime fans.  Boom stuff is aimed at kids, and Modern is uhh... he's around.  But prior to Boom his merch was aimed at kids lol.  Pyjamas, pencil cases, that sorta thing.

SEGA's main mascot is Sonic as a whole, I don't think Classic is replacing Modern as the face of the company, but the two are becoming interchangable.

Modern sonic and his compatriots are also in a bunch of stuff aimed at adult and also kids. Kids can't afford shadow the hedgehog statues, but they can afford comics.You could also make the argument that boom might have been planned to be this " adventure surrogate at one point.  I think they are trying to figure out how to work them both, I think they kinda messed up already. Classic Sonic's appearance in 2017 for a lot of people now seems... strange, its gotten people talking. I think they are trying to figure out what's what and were its going. 

Also probably trying to figure out what they are going to even do with sonic boom as a thing? Because... what happens after season 2... because obviously people don't want that show... do you still make those games? But that's another bag of problems for another thread. 

[Blacklightning]

Honestly, I don't feel like there's anything wrong with the main games taking aesthetic and gameplay cues from the classic games - lord knows I would be a complete hypocrite to say otherwise, given how long I've advocated for the main divides in the series to be congealed together into more or less a single mass. The problem I have with it as far as 2017 is concerned is that Sonic Team still insists on putting a physical barrier between both styles even if it would only benefit one or the other if they merged and compromised, and for every indication we've had so far the classic influences in this game are completely devoid of any meaningful context, in nearly the exact same way Wisps were for Lost World.

It's an incredibly non-comitting if not an outright lazy and senseless way to go about the issue, and I fucking hate it.

[Shadowlax]

I don't think they need to be merged personally. 

Sonic mania exists, if classic sonic just took over 2d sonic games and like NEW super mario bros, that was a thing, that's problably the best way to solve that. Let 3d sonic be its own thing you don't have to include classic sonic in the games, and let 2d classic sonic be its own thing. 

Then everyone or at least a lot of people, will be happy. Sometimes you don't need to merge two things together when they work by themselves. Also I feel like, at least in this instance, calling them lazy seems like a stretch

[Dr. Detective]

Random thought, but I'm hoping somewhere in the fire and brimstone of the destroyed city, you just see a speaker laying on the ground and out of it comes the voice of the woman from SA1 saying "The train leaving for Station Square will be departing soon."

[Mad Convoy]

1 hour ago, Dr. Chaotix said:

Random thought, but I'm hoping somewhere in the fire and brimstone of the destroyed city, you just see a speaker laying on the ground and out of it comes the voice of the woman from SA1's saying "The train leaving for Station Square will be departing soon."

And now I'm hoping that is followed by a train going flying and crashing as a result of a nearby battle between Sonics and Eggman. XP 

[DaN]

After what it seems to be a generations 2 25th anniversary celebration & knuckles director's cut game (which is fine by me as long as they do something a bit more different than a generations sequel) I'd like SEGA to split the franchise in 3 iterations.

Modern Sonic: a soft reboot (or retelling) that could bring back the first Sonic Adventure feel and core Sonic gameplay. I'd like these games to be only 3D (with maybe a few 2D sections) and they could possibly use the boost formula for special stages or some sort of extra missions/max speed sections.  These games should link to the movie produced by Sony and expand its world 

 

Classic Sonic: Introduced by Sonic Mania, this iteration should focus on  2D titles that resemble the classic. The next step I'd like them to make is a sequel that introduces completely new hd animations in 2D (like capcom did with street fighter 2 remake or even better) and add new folks like Amy, Metal or even Mighty, Fang, Espio etc...

 

Boom Sonic: I really don't care about this universe that much, but It is fine if they keep this aimed to kids, with decent handeld/mobile/digital games and a decent tv show

[Darinian]

4 minutes ago, DaN said:

After what it seems to be a generations 2 25th anniversary celebration & knuckles director's cut game (which is fine by me as long as they do something a bit more different than a generations sequel) I'd like SEGA to split the franchise in 3 iterations.

Modern Sonic: a soft reboot (or retelling) that could bring back the first Sonic Adventure feel and core Sonic gameplay. I'd like these games to be only 3D (with maybe a few 2D sections) and they could possibly use the boost formula for special stages or some sort of extra missions/max speed sections.  These games should link to the movie produced by Sony and expand its world 

 

Classic Sonic: Introduced by Sonic Mania, this iteration should focus on  2D titles that resemble the classic. The next step I'd like them to make is a sequel that introduces completely new hd animations in 2D (like capcom did with street fighter 2 remake or even better) and add new folks like Amy, Metal or even Mighty, Fang, Espio etc...

 

Boom Sonic: I really don't care about this universe that much, but It is fine if they keep this aimed to kids, with decent handeld/mobile/digital games and a decent tv show

Yeah break and fracture the fanbase more...

[FriendBot]

It's already fractured to begin with, unifying them now would only make things worse.

Just let Modern, Classic and Boom each do their own thing and leave it at that.

[DaN]

Just now, Flareon Sakitha Sol said:

Yeah break and fracture the fanbase more...

The franchise is already fractured, but we don't really know in how many parts... we don't know if classic is just a special guest or if it will become his own bunch of games

Mario did it with paper mario and no one said a word, Megaman has multiple universes too. The dc universe is also fractured: comics, cinema, tv, injustice, arkham series and so on...

Sonic could work very well with this, and every fan might be pleased.

 

Sonic team ---> Modern Sonic games (adventure/boost/3D gameplay)

stealth & taxman ---> Classic Sonic games

other teams ---> Sonic Boom

[LoseR]

I think you guys need to understand something about game development in order to understand why we are getting Boost and Classic Sonic again.

New titles in a series are almost always built on top of the last. When a game works--by "works" I mean when a game is successful from a marketing standpoint--developers take what they have and reuse it for the following game. Of course they make changes and add something new and fresh to make the game worthwhile, but sequels aren't built from scratch. It's absolutely ridiculous (and usually stupid) to build new content from scratch just for a new game, the exceptions being ports or new iterations where reusing assets just isn't possible. And obviously there are many new assets as well in new iterations.

Mario 3 built on Mario 2 (JP) which built on the original Super Mario Bros. Then World was built as a port of Mario 3 but further changed to make it more original. Of course after that came 64 which was essentially entirely new, but because it had to be. Sonic & Knuckles was built from Sonic 3, from Sonic 2, from Sonic 1. This truth becomes especially true with AAA and/or 3D games because they're extremely hard to make.

Now I bet a lot if not all of this is obvious to most of you, but here's my point:

I understand there are people who don't really care for the boost gameplay or are just tired of seeing classic Sonic but truth be told I just don't understand what you were expecting. Both of these gameplay styles were almost universally praised back in the Generations days and neither style was near-perfect to any extent, so of course Sonic Team is going to take what they have and try to improve it. Some examples of faults are how Boost Sonic ABSOLUTELY SUCKED at platforming in 3D (which seems to be the main reason why 2D sections exist) and how Classic Sonic's feel was vastly different than the Genesis games. Sonic Team knew this then and I absolutely bet that they are making this game the way it is to try to improve on both gameplay styles because they want to and because it is what they have to work off of. Now I'm not even saying that they're going to improve the faults I'm speaking of, but I know for a fact they'll be improving something for both styles.

tl;dr Sonic Team is taking what was well received and making it better (and maybe doing something new with it) just like every other game developer because that's the smart and sensible thing to do.

[Diogenes]

19 minutes ago, DaN said:

Mario did it with paper mario and no one said a word,

Mario treats continuity very differently from Sonic; even when it has divisions, it's more vague and fluid than the strict divisions you're proposing for Sonic. Paper Mario is also an entirely separate genre from Mario's core games, whereas you're proposing 3 different platformer continuities running in parallel, competing for attention with each other.

19 minutes ago, DaN said:

Megaman has multiple universes too.

Megaman's not exactly doing well right now, you may notice. Granted largely for reasons unrelated to this, but I feel like the way it divided itself so often also stunted its ability to evolve; instead of new ideas being able to bounce off each other they largely got locked into whatever continuity they first appeared in, leading each to stagnate in whatever niche they carved out.

[Milo]

1 hour ago, N8te said:

Mario 3 built on Mario 2 (JP) which built on the original Super Mario Bros. Then World was built as a port of Mario 3 but further changed to make it more original. Of course after that came 64 which was essentially entirely new, but because it had to be. Sonic & Knuckles was built from Sonic 3, from Sonic 2, from Sonic 1. This truth becomes especially true with AAA and/or 3D games because they're extremely hard to make.

Apologies for being pedantic, but Mario 2 isn't so much an iterative sequel as it is more of a remix or (hesitate to say this word, but) ROM Hack of the first game. There are some new additions like Poison Mushrooms and a significantly higher difficulty level, but structurally, it is essentially the same game as the original. A similar case applies with Sonic & Knuckles to Sonic 3, in that they were developed in mind as one single game that were split into two parts.

With that said, I generally get the main argument you're saying though (even speaking as one who doesn't really care for the boost gameplay). But on the argument of classic Sonic (assuming you're speaking in favor for them including the character --and depending on who you ask, his gameplay-- in Project Sonic 2017), it kinda falls apart when those interested in classic Sonic will be receiving Mania, a game entirely devoted to the classic Sonic direction. Classic Sonic appearing in Sonic 2017 in spite of Mania's existence feels more about Sonic Team trying to avoid something bad, rather than celebrating something good; as if classic Sonic was added under the mindset that the game would not succeed without his inclusion. Which, as one can ascertain from the mostly-positive reception from Colors, which came out prior to Generations, is clearly not the case.

[LoseR]

48 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Apologies for being pedantic, but Mario 2 isn't so much an iterative sequel as it is more of a remix or (hesitate to say this word, but) ROM Hack of the first game. There are some new additions like Poison Mushrooms and a significantly higher difficulty level, but structurally, it is essentially the same game as the original. A similar case applies with Sonic & Knuckles to Sonic 3, in that they were developed in mind as one single game that were split into two parts.

This is true for both, but they are still building on top of the last game, even if they are alternate versions or essentially DLC.

48 minutes ago, Gabe said:

With that said, I generally get the main argument you're saying though (even speaking as one who doesn't really care for the boost gameplay). But on the argument of classic Sonic (assuming you're speaking in favor for them including the character --and depending on who you ask, his gameplay-- in Project Sonic 2017), it kinda falls apart when those interested in classic Sonic will be receiving Mania, a game entirely devoted to the classic Sonic direction. Classic Sonic appearing in Sonic 2017 in spite of Mania's existence feels more about Sonic Team trying to avoid something bad, rather than celebrating something good; as if classic Sonic was added under the mindset that the game would not succeed without his inclusion. Which, as one can ascertain from the mostly-positive reception from Colors, which came out prior to Generations, is clearly not the case.

Personally I am a little disappointed to see classic Sonic again but I'm waiting for actual gameplay before I make any specific opinions.

I can see where you're coming from but I don't think he's here to avoid making something bad. Though I do think classic Sonic's inclusion is to some extent because they need that "slower" gameplay style in comparison to the boost gameplay--it's tradition at this point--, but I don't think that's THE reason why he's here either. I assume classic Sonic in Mania and Project Sonic 17 are meant to give off the different feelings. Sonic Mania is acting as both a remix of the Genesis games and "Sonic 5" in almost everything but name, while classic Sonic in 17 is a "new" classic Sonic. New aesthetics, new type of world, new context, etc. It's not meant to be "Genesis Sonic" to a T. It's hard to explain what I mean, but essentially a classic Sonic game by Christian Whitehead and friends isn't going to end up being the same thing as classic Sonic gameplay in a (maybe) big budget Sonic Team game. (Even when they're both under supervision from Sonic Team.) They're separate games and I don't think we need to treat them like they have any sort of connection honestly.

I'm honestly not sure if anything I'm saying here makes sense, but I hope it does.

[Bowbowis]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Mario treats continuity very differently from Sonic; even when it has divisions, it's more vague and fluid than the strict divisions you're proposing for Sonic. Paper Mario is also an entirely separate genre from Mario's core games, whereas you're proposing 3 different platformer continuities running in parallel, competing for attention with each other.

Setting aside Boom, which was designed to be an alternate continuity to begin with, I don't think anybody is seriously suggesting a complete split between Modern Sonic and Classic Sonic. At least not to the point that they're considered completely separate characters with different continuities. When people suggest a split they simply mean that SEGA should make games in both the Classic style and the Adventure and/or Modern style, rather than awkwardly forcing them to coexist in a single game like with Lost World. 

 

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Megaman's not exactly doing well right now, you may notice. Granted largely for reasons unrelated to this, but I feel like the way it divided itself so often also stunted its ability to evolve; instead of new ideas being able to bounce off each other they largely got locked into whatever continuity they first appeared in, leading each to stagnate in whatever niche they carved out.

I've said it before but if you need an example of a series that does this successfully look no further than The Legend of Zelda, which has, for nearly 20 years now, continued to make games in both the 2-D/top down style of A Link to the Past and the 3-D/behind the back style of Ocarina of Time, as well as games with the realistic style of OoT and games with the cartoony style of Wind Waker and everything in-between. Yes, Zelda does have multiple timelines/continuities, and each is somewhat associated with a different style, but those associations are far from absolute. Look at the "Adult timeline" for instance, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks are both cartoony, top down games, yet they follow up on the fully 3-D Wind Waker, which itself explicitly follows up on the more realistic looking Ocarina of Time. Not to mention the fact that Twilight Princess and Fourswords Adventures, two games which are, stylistically, about as about as far removed from one another as you can get, occupy not only the same timeline but the same console as well. It's not as if people are asking for the impossible here.

[Diogenes]

34 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

Yes, Zelda does have multiple timelines/continuities, and each is somewhat associated with a different style, but those associations are far from absolute.

I think the reason it works for Zelda is because it takes the idea to the extreme; it doesn't just have two or three lines running in parallel, it radically reinvents its setting and reboots practically the entire cast nearly every game. It avoids the problems of sectioning off parts of the series by subdividing so finely it's closer to a gradient than separate categories, so it all flows and intermingles. I don't think that's really an option for Sonic, and it's not what you're going to get by looking at it in terms of Classic/Modern/Boom categories.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

13 hours ago, DaN said:

Megaman has multiple universes too.

To be fair,  it's really just two timelines/dimensions upon which the games are spread.

Akin to the mainstream Sonic games and the Boom universe strictly being the two major timelines game-wise.

[Bowbowis]

9 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I think the reason it works for Zelda is because it takes the idea to the extreme; it doesn't just have two or three lines running in parallel, it radically reinvents its setting and reboots practically the entire cast nearly every game. It avoids the problems of sectioning off parts of the series by subdividing so finely it's closer to a gradient than separate categories, so it all flows and intermingles. I don't think that's really an option for Sonic, and it's not what you're going to get by looking at it in terms of Classic/Modern/Boom categories.

Yes, there are individual differences between games but they can still be easily classified as following in the style of either Ocarina of Time or A Link to the Past. All people are asking for when they say they want a split is for there to be games that follow in both the Classic style and the Adventure or Modern style so that fans who want to see Sonic evolve with new technology and those who still want to experience him in the style that initially put him on the map both get what they want, rather than trying to mash the styles together in a way that pleases nobody. Boom is sort of irrelevant to this since it was designed from the beginning to be it's own thing, sort of like the Pokemon anime in relation to the games. Basically all people are asking for the franchise to do what it was doing in the early 2000's, where you had the Advance trilogy carrying on the style of the Classics while the 3D games gave the series a way to keep moving forward. It's not like they were completely separate series or anything. Nobody looked at Sonic Advance and said: "Hmm... Well, this is clearly it's own thing completely independent of Sonic Adventure".

Would that set up please everybody? Probably not, no. Still, I'm sick of this defeatist, perfect solution fallacy people seem to be committed to with regard to this series. Just because you can't please everyone doesn't mean you shouldn't try to please anyone, or only try to please one group at the expense of all others.

[Shadowlax]

On 11/14/2016 at 8:13 PM, N8te said:

 

tl;dr Sonic Team is taking what was well received and making it better (and maybe doing something new with it) just like every other game developer because that's the smart and sensible thing to do.

I don't think its the most sensible thing in this case. This is a situation where the series fanbases are super divided in what they like and value. And then unlike generations... introduced... what  one side... wanted... in whole. Sonic Mania. The novelty of classic sonic was that in generations we hadn't seen him in a hot minute. But now sonic mania exists. And when that trailer dropped... there was a lot of of " why? " floating around. Because one side of the fanbase went " I have sonic mania... with sonic phsyics... why would I play this version that's worse also why does it look so serious" and the other one , upon seeing the other side get exactly what they want are now questioning why couldn't they get what they wanted in this game. And they very much could a new sonic game with boost stuff with out classic sonic and maybe other playable dudes. To both sides, classic sonic in a new main sonic game looses a lot of the novelty, and for one side probably gets them more amped up because it might feel like the series is kicking them out. But even more so than that... it doesn't seem like a smart business decision because generally if you plan on making different types of things that appeal two different types of people, whether they are different properties or the same one... you generally separate them.  Nintendo does this quite often, mario is the king of that. 

Now i"m in the camp of, lets see if this game is as on fire as this teaser city is before completely judging, that game could secretly be vurtua fighter 6 at this point we know less than nothing. ( also sega please make vurtua fighter 6 pls thnks). But I don't think this is a failure to understand game design problem... because there are companies that exist video game and entertainment in general ... that strait up separate series intentionally because they know its a different audience, as you said your explanation is fairly obvious to most. Its a game presumably trying to do two things, but mistakenly shown they could do two separate things... and now they have lost novelty to the some, and in some ways told others to just... go away. 

But again this is a preview trailer, this game could be virtua fighter 6. 

 

On 11/15/2016 at 9:35 AM, Bowbowis said:

 Basically all people are asking for the franchise to do what it was doing in the early 2000's, where you had the Advance trilogy carrying on the style of the Classics while the 3D games gave the series a way to keep moving forward. It's not like they were completely separate series or anything. Nobody looked at Sonic Advance and said: "Hmm... Well, this is clearly it's own thing completely independent of Sonic Adventure".

- points to violently-

[sonicDX]

On 2016. 11. 13. at 9:00 PM, Sniper dreams said:

You mean the hugely experimental phase Sonic had throughout the 2000s? As fun as that may have been, most of those experimental games were far from good. Shadow the Hedgehog may be enjoyable to some, but it suits the definition of bad, rather than good. Same goes to Black Knight, Secret Rings, Sonic Heroes, etc. Most of these games were middling, with a few being pretty bad. There were definitely good games like Rush and Advance, but those were games that stuck to a stable forumula and didn't change much over the series. 

Sega succeeds more when they stick to a formula and execute it well, instead of giving Sonic a heavy longsword or having motion controls. Having new gameplay could be great (like how Velocity 2X alters between 2 genres, but maintains the all important speed), but randomly adding a beat em up or Mech Shooting to an otherwise fast platformer isn't exactly what the vast majority of Sonic fans want, nor is it a good idea. 

I think the 2000's were an important year for Sonic Team to figure out what works with Sonic and what doesn't. A racing game works, but a beat em up doesn't. Going back to those years would be backtracking.

Although you're right in that these games weren't polished enough, I still think today's Sonic games need a good story, characters or interesting twists/happenings. Believe it or not, I became a Sonic fan because of Adventure's awesomeness, and I guess I'm not alone with that. Who would have the idea to put a blue hedgehog and his colourful friends into a human inhabited city, then wreck it all by a mysterious ancient dragon-like monster? Riding on airboards in the future is impressing as well. And I also wouldn't call Heroes bad, its three-characters gameplay was great.

I think the best formula Sonic Team has ever made isn't the boost formula. It is their absolutely creative ideas, making the 2000s Sonic games a lot of fun. They may had quite bad mistakes, but for a player, who just wants to enjoy the game, they were perfect.

I need no boost formula, or anniversary celebration. I don't care the graphics. I want a Sonic game.

[Stritix]

Years ago I remember being one of the fans who were asking for Sonic Team to take on a new direction and to ditch the boost formula. Now, however, I'm very glad it's returning. As shallow as I found the boost games to be, they were far more fun with more soul to them compared to later games. I honestly wouldn't mind the boost formula being made a standard, provided that it continues to be improved and expanded upon. I don't quite understand why other characters haven't been made playable with the boost formula. There are numerous simple ways each character could work.

Ideally, I'd like the Sonic Adventure gameplay style to return, but I suppose this is the next best option.

[Dizcrybe]

Wait, was it ever confirmed boost is coming back?

[Lucid Dream]

12 minutes ago, Dizcrybe said:

Wait, was it ever confirmed boost is coming back?

Nope, we're all just assuming it is. It has been hinted that it's coming back though. 

[PickleBrows]

As someone who loves the boost games, I think the major argument for the Adventure gameplay is how versatile it could be. The boost gameplay requires its levels to be built with the boost in mind which is what causes the whole "corridor level design", even the best of Generations still has them from time to time. What actually defines Adventure Sonic? He runs, jumps, homing attacks, bounces and has the light dash. That's about as basic as 3D Sonic can get and you could even remove the last two if you really wanted to. There's really nothing there that would need to dictate the level design outside of the obligatory homing-chains.

I said quite a while ago that Sonic Team needs to find an underlying 'core' for Sonic. A very basic gameplay setup that can be expanded upon from game to game. Mario 64 introduced the 3D Mario gameplay. Mario had far more moves than he ever had up to that point but the overall gameplay was still very broad which allowed the developers to put him in a variety of situations from level to level. Sunshine had the flood gimmick added on and the Galaxy games messed with gravity but all kept the same core setup.

Sonic Adventure 1 Sonic is pretty much as scaled back as Sonic can really be in 3D which would make it a fairly good 'core' for Sonic which can then be expanded upon either permanently or on a game-to-game basis. 

[Diogenes]

Moving away from the boost's almost singular focus would be a good thing, but I feel like SA Sonic may be too far in the other direction. I'm not sure if there's a clear enough focus or concept to it for it to serve as a sturdy base and provide actual direction for the series.

Looking at SM64, they certainly did widen Mario's abilities, but I think they also kept a strong emphasis on what makes Mario Mario. Mario jumps, so they gave him a double jump, a triple jump, long jump, wall jump, side flip, backflip, etc, and the levels, for the most part, have enough gaps and climbs to keep you jumping. And the next few games' gimmicks build on that; Sunshine is "what if jumping, with a hover pack" and the Galaxies are "what if jumping, with varying gravity".

I don't think SA Sonic has a clear focus like that. He's fast-ish, but the game doesn't really have you use that speed in the way Mario uses his jumps; going fast is more the goal you want to achieve than the mechanics that you use to achieve your goal. You can run on walls, but the level design rarely allows or makes use of it. The homing attack is far too shallow to be a core focus. Slope physics are minimized due to how spammable the spindash is and how automated the level design is. Without a clear idea to ground the series in, I feel like trying to use SA as a base would just lead to the series floundering from gimmick to gimmick again.