Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Bowbowis]

36 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Moving away from the boost's almost singular focus would be a good thing, but I feel like SA Sonic may be too far in the other direction. I'm not sure if there's a clear enough focus or concept to it for it to serve as a sturdy base and provide actual direction for the series.

Looking at SM64, they certainly did widen Mario's abilities, but I think they also kept a strong emphasis on what makes Mario Mario. Mario jumps, so they gave him a double jump, a triple jump, long jump, wall jump, side flip, backflip, etc, and the levels, for the most part, have enough gaps and climbs to keep you jumping. And the next few games' gimmicks build on that; Sunshine is "what if jumping, with a hover pack" and the Galaxies are "what if jumping, with varying gravity".

I don't think SA Sonic has a clear focus like that. He's fast-ish, but the game doesn't really have you use that speed in the way Mario uses his jumps; going fast is more the goal you want to achieve than the mechanics that you use to achieve your goal. You can run on walls, but the level design rarely allows or makes use of it. The homing attack is far too shallow to be a core focus. Slope physics are minimized due to how spammable the spindash is and how automated the level design is. Without a clear idea to ground the series in, I feel like trying to use SA as a base would just lead to the series floundering from gimmick to gimmick again.

You're focusing too much on the minutiae and not enough on the big picture. What you've just listed are all secondary issues which are not inherent to the Adventure formula itself. Case in point, most of them have to do with level design rather that how the character actually handles. Not only that, but speed being a goal rather than a mechanic, level design rarely using slopes, and physics being de-emphasized are all complaints that could just as easily be leveled at Sonic 1 and, along with automation and spammable spindash, Classic Sonic in Generations. Yet I've never heard anyone say that those problems invalidate the Classic formula as a solid base for future games because those issues are not inherent to the Classic formula, just as they are not inherent to the Adventure formula. In other words you can iron out those issues and still have a game that still recognizably follows the Adventure formula, so it's not really fair to use them as points against it.

I will agree that the homing attack is too shallow to be used as a game's core mechanic, but the Adventure games never really treated it as such. It was prevalent sure but it's not like the entire game was built around it. Also, it was also a bit less shallow back in then. In particular, the shorter range and lack of a reticle meant that there was a little more skill involved with using it, but even then, it was just one move in Sonic's arsenal not the game's central mechanic.

[PickleBrows]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Moving away from the boost's almost singular focus would be a good thing, but I feel like SA Sonic may be too far in the other direction. I'm not sure if there's a clear enough focus or concept to it for it to serve as a sturdy base and provide actual direction for the series.

Looking at SM64, they certainly did widen Mario's abilities, but I think they also kept a strong emphasis on what makes Mario Mario. Mario jumps, so they gave him a double jump, a triple jump, long jump, wall jump, side flip, backflip, etc, and the levels, for the most part, have enough gaps and climbs to keep you jumping. And the next few games' gimmicks build on that; Sunshine is "what if jumping, with a hover pack" and the Galaxies are "what if jumping, with varying gravity".

I don't think SA Sonic has a clear focus like that. He's fast-ish, but the game doesn't really have you use that speed in the way Mario uses his jumps; going fast is more the goal you want to achieve than the mechanics that you use to achieve your goal. You can run on walls, but the level design rarely allows or makes use of it. The homing attack is far too shallow to be a core focus. Slope physics are minimized due to how spammable the spindash is and how automated the level design is. Without a clear idea to ground the series in, I feel like trying to use SA as a base would just lead to the series floundering from gimmick to gimmick again.

I do agree with this and I should probably have actually gone into detail slightly further with this. I feel SA Sonic would potentially be the most ideal starting point in working out the 3D core going forward rather than IT in of itself being the core. SA's level design is absolutely not the direction I'd want the series to go in but Sonic himself is already quite some way there.

The lack of slope physics really comes down to how the levels were designed rather than how Sonic himself was designed. He is perfectly capable of making use of slopes, but like you say the levels aren't built to take advantage of it. I think I can see your point with how the spammable spindash kind of negates the skill element of using slopes but again, I don't think this is beyond tweaking when paired with suitable level design. The homing attack is absolutely not something that defines Sonic's gameplay in any style the series has used it in but it's absolutely a staple move that, in fairness could be worked on to require some more player effort but it's a necessity with a character like Sonic in 3D.

I'm not saying give Sonic his core basics and be on his way, but that's what they should be starting with: "What should Sonic be at the very least?" Now that's not for me to say, but I'd personally think it should be about using a fairly simple, but robust set of moves that can be used to make use of the environment to reach the end goal. From there, they can think "what would make this core better or more fun?" This is where we look at things like the Parkour, power-ups/ Wisps etc. Things that aren't perhaps crucial but could be nice additions that add to the gameplay without outright changing it. 

[Diogenes]

41 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

You're focusing too much on the minutiae and not enough on the big picture. What you've just listed are all secondary issues which are not inherent to the Adventure formula itself.

I'm not just nitpicking at problems with the Adventure formula, I'm asking what is the actual core concept of the games that makes them sufficient grounds to build off of.

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Not only that, but speed being a goal rather than a mechanic, level design rarely using slopes, and physics being de-emphasized are all complaints that could just as easily be leveled at Sonic 1 and, along with automation and spammable spindash, Classic Sonic in Generations.

Sonic 1 regularly gets criticism for not fully understanding the potential of the mechanics they created, most notably in Marble and Labyrinth, but the other levels, as well as the games that followed it, clearly show the strength of the gameplay concept. And Gens Classic sucks ass, it's a cheap imitation of the classic formula.

e: also speed as a goal rather than a mechanic isn't really a complaint, I'm more pointing out that it doesn't sufficiently define the gameplay.

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In other words you can iron out those issues and still have a game that still recognizably follows the Adventure formula, so it's not really fair to use them as points against it.

Again my point is not to nitpick the game's problems, my point is that I question "the Adventure formula" as a clear and coherent idea sufficient to base the series on. What of this supposed formula clearly defines what Sonic should be?

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I will agree that the homing attack is too shallow to be used as a game's core mechanic, but the Adventure games never really treated it as such. It was prevalent sure but it's not like the entire game was built around it. Also, it was also a bit less shallow back in then. In particular, the shorter range and lack of a reticle meant that there was a little more skill involved with using it, but even then, it was just one move in Sonic's arsenal not the game's central mechanic.

"Guess when you're close enough to automatically beat this enemy" is not a meaningful test of skill IMO.

30 minutes ago, Joy said:

I'm not saying give Sonic his core basics and be on his way, but that's what they should be starting with: "What should Sonic be at the very least?"

And my response to that is basically "more and better than SA Sonic".

[Betz]

Take this with a grain of salt for now, but there's a "leak" claiming that Sonic 2017 is called "Sonic Inferno". Yeah.

Does it match the theme? Yes. Do some of those other "leaked" titles sound convincing? Yes. Does his info align with some reports coming out recently? ...Yeah kinda...

[Lord-Dreamerz]

Kinda obviously a fake name that was just based on the trailer where the town is destroyed and on fire... So not really convincing at all. I really doubt the WHOLE game is themed around a flaming ruin version of Sonic's world (AKA Crisis City the game) as that name would suggest.

[Ellipsis-Ultima]

False rumor by the way, it was cleared in the statuses... Although the original tweet was deleted in the link?

https://mobile.twitter.com/Doctor_Cupcakes/status/801862457987842048

[Fr0zenanus]

if that one "Dimensions" thing was something to go by, which turned out to be Lego Dimensions featuring Sonic. i'm going to take assumptions that the rumored names in the past could be true, as such, this game could be Sonic Generations 2, but when Iizuka said "it's a new game" he could have been referring that it's an new gameplay style for Modern Sonic.

correct me if my assumption is wrong. 

[Betz]

6 hours ago, Fr0zenanus said:

if that one "Dimensions" thing was something to go by, which turned out to be Lego Dimensions featuring Sonic. i'm going to take assumptions that the rumored names in the past could be true, as such, this game could be Sonic Generations 2, but when Iizuka said "it's a new game" he could have been referring that it's an new gameplay style for Modern Sonic.

correct me if my assumption is wrong. 

He said it was a "new game and not a sequel to anything we've done in the past". Now, there are such things as a stand-alone sequel and the Generations 2 name could be a possibility because of that.

[Marcello]

The Sonic Dimensions rumor had nothing to do with Lego Dimensions. That was just fake.

[Dr. Detective]

That's hilarious. The idea that it's gonna be called "Sonic Inferno" I can only guess came about because a city on fire is the first thing we saw of the game.

Oh yeah, there's fire in this trailer. That means the whole game is going to be nothing but this fire. All the levels are on fire. All of them.

 

[FriendBot]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Chaotix said:

That's hilarious. The idea that it's gonna be called "Sonic Inferno" I can only guess came about because a city on fire is the first thing we saw of the game.

Oh yeah, there's fire in this trailer. That means the whole game is going to be nothing but this fire. All the levels are on fire. All of them.

 

Reminds me of that Sonic 1 romhack with the hilarious Caterkiller glitch from last year's Sonic Hacking Contest. 

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

Unless more substantial proof can be provided for that leak, we should all just move along. Though the original incarnation of the Tweet was apparently deleted, it was reposted in this form:

As far as I can tell, we don't really have any reason to believe the Twitter account that posted about it is reliable. It just seems to be some random Nintendo fan and their source is just a random email address. If there's any evidence that this "lechrono_switch" guy actually knows anything, it should be provided; otherwise, we ought to let it go.

[Marcello]

lmao Final Fantasy VII by September?

[Mountaindewandsprite]

Tbh, I don't have high hopes for this. It looks great and fun but I'm not willing to get my hopes up.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

Been thinking that I hope Sonic 2017 has a hub world, and for it to be a fun playground very similar to the hub world in LEGO Sonic or maybe a mix between LEGO & Unleashed hubs. I'm not a huge fan of the whole retro going straight from level to level to level arcade game method... Because I like my games to be more of a interactive world game. Getting to know characters and the world you play in is much more Immersive to me, lets not forget it's a very great place for side missions & minigames too.

Maybe to make both types of fans happy the hub worlds shouldn't be mandatory? They could still include a separate level select screen. Or perhaps even give the player a choice at the beginning if they want to play a full story Immersive mode or a arcade game mode... I guess It won't make a difference to folkz who want to 100% their games...but those blokes already choose the most hard way to enjoy a game, so I have no pity for them. :U

[JingleBoy]

I'm looking at this and can't stop thinking, "Project Sonic 2017's gon' look purdy gud".

Like, don't get me wrong - I'm stoked for Crash Bandicoot N.Sane Trilogy HD Remix, but it's so obviously low budget and goddamn it - it still looks pretty darn amazing.

Seriously think about how good a big budget Sonic game on PS4 Pro will look.  

[Fr0zenanus]

3 hours ago, JingleBoy said:

I'm looking at this and can't stop thinking, "Project Sonic 2017's gon' look purdy gud".

Like, don't get me wrong - I'm stoked for Crash Bandicoot N.Sane Trilogy HD Remix, but it's so obviously low budget and goddamn it - it still looks pretty darn amazing.

Seriously think about how good a big budget Sonic game on PS4 Pro will look.  

i don't know about you, i don't see a lot of unreal-engine-lite games having expressive animation. (i know it's probably not done on ue, but the graphics make it look like it does.  )

 

so when are we gonna get any new information? i know there was info on an party in japan, (maybe) but the whole situation with Sega selling Joypolis confuses me to an concerning degree, it makes me concerned if Sega isn't going to have event-parties for Sonic anymore in japan. and when Joypolis gets rid of all it's Sega stuff :/

[TB100]

4 hours ago, Fr0zenanus said:

i don't know about you, i don't see a lot of unreal-engine-lite games having expressive animation. (i know it's probably not done on ue, but the graphics make it look like it does.  )

 

so when are we gonna get any new information? i know there was info on an party in japan, (maybe) but the whole situation with Sega selling Joypolis confuses me to an concerning degree, it makes me concerned if Sega isn't going to have event-parties for Sonic anymore in japan. and when Joypolis gets rid of all it's Sega stuff :/

My guess is probably around the same time most Sonic games do. (April or May.) But i'll definitely be after Mania is released though.

Also Sega selling joypolis does not mean no more involvement, they just won't own it anymore. plus we don't really know the full extent of the plans. Sega could just be selling it's other two locations in japan and the two in china, (Or hell probably just the chinese ones.) but i'll be very unlikely for Sega to sell the original Joypolis. (Because it's such a big part of Sega as a whole.)

[Shiny Gems]

Here is a little something. A little.

http://www.gamenguide.com/articles/82634/20161206/project-sonic-2017-release-date-news-update-sega-new-hedgehog-character-villain-in-the-upcoming-game.htm

Not sure if this is trustworthy though, but hey...

[Mad Convoy]

On 11/29/2016 at 3:38 PM, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Been thinking that I hope Sonic 2017 has a hub world, and for it to be a fun playground very similar to the hub world in LEGO Sonic or maybe a mix between LEGO & Unleashed hubs. I'm not a huge fan of the whole retro going straight from level to level to level arcade game method... Because I like my games to be more of a interactive world game. Getting to know characters and the world you play in is much more Immersive to me, lets not forget it's a very great place for side missions & minigames too.

Maybe to make both types of fans happy the hub worlds shouldn't be mandatory? They could still include a separate level select screen. Or perhaps even give the player a choice at the beginning if they want to play a full story Immersive mode or a arcade game mode... I guess It won't make a difference to folkz who want to 100% their games...but those blokes already choose the most hard way to enjoy a game, so I have no pity for them. :U

What I think would be a good way to handle it is to have the hub worlds be small in area but tall in height. The accesses to the levels would always be on the bottom of the hubs, so you can get to them pretty quickly if you don't want to deal with the hubs for too long. However, if you want to explore and check out the goodies, you would still be able to interact with NPCs throughout the hub, partake in optional side missions and minigames, and explore the higher areas of the hubs.

Though a separate level select screen would be a good solution too. An arcade mode would be good for 2D, but I'm not sure how it would translate to 3D (which is a bit more complicated).

[Ellipsis-Ultima]

The new character thing was known for sometime now.

Either way it's kinda badly worded, so we'll have to wait and see next year for more info.

[Plus]

I'm 100% certain the new character will not, cannot be Boom or Adventure Sonic based on Iizuka's words. He said there would only be a new character meaning singular, and another Sonic would have to mean another Eggman as well meaning two characters. 

So its definitely a new-new character and probably a hedgehog if SA2, Heroes, and Generations are anything to go by. 

[Dr. Detective]

Even if it's something IIzuka said, I still advocate for waiting until we see it to make the judgement. Lord knows that I've given up relying on anything that comes out of that man's mouth. I still remember back when Unleashed came out how everyone freaked out when he said "The werehog is totally gonna return guys". And then back when Generations came out saying "There's no plans to bring Classic Sonic back" and then all that stuff about how he wanted to create a new "Modern" Sonic with Lost World. And then I think the term "Legacy Sonic" was tossed out there at one point.

The point is that "Seeing is believing". Indefinitely. 

[Plus]

Thats because he never knows what he's going to do next and seems to wing every idea that comes to his mind. That quote was on a game thats been in development for a few years. 

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

Um...Boom or Adventure Sonic wouldn't exactly be a "new" character to begin with, now would he?