Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Pixel]

True Classic Sonic had a mix of cute and serious in the glorious Classic titles.

The problem with Generations was that he was overwhelmingly cute and cuddly.

[Bowbowis]

4 hours ago, Pixel said:

I want Sonic to be expressive, I just don't want him to be defiled by the awful voice acting and voice direction of post 1993.

The bit about expressiveness wasn't specifically directed at you, although I can see how that wasn't clear in my post.

At any rate this is what I mean by you acting like a one-dimensional parody of a Classic fan: You say the voice acting is horrible. Why? What makes you say that? Is there an issue with the quality of the performances themselves? In which case the problem could be solved by simply getting better voice actors instead of jumping to the nuclear option of eliminating voice acting altogether. Or do you simply believe that Sonic was better off without voice acting? In which case the voice acting isn't necessarily horrible, you just don't like Sonic having a voice and will never be pleased as long as he does, quality of the performance be damned. Is you're issue with voice acting specifically or are you opposed to text based dialogue a la Sonic Battle too?

 

4 hours ago, Pixel said:

Classic Sonic was at his best when emotions and tension were indication through actions and expression. Look at the glorious Classic titles. Lava Reef 3 has the most tension of the entire series, and Knuckles finding out about Eggman's betrayl is a far more epic and emotional scene than anything in the melodramatic and D grade cringe of Adventure.

Voice acting and nonverbal expression are not mutually exclusive though.

Here's another scene from Secret Rings. You'll notice that, somehow, through some sorcery, Sonic is able to emote non-verbally in this scene, despite the presence of voice acting. Furthermore there are limits to what can be said without words, language was invented for a reason after all. Sometimes speech, or at least text, is necessary to communicate more complex or abstract concepts. The last two scenes of Sonic and the Black Knight are an excellent example of a situation where voice acting is needed to get the point across effectively.

If you were to remove all of the voice acting and subtitles from these scenes it would become nearly impossible to convey Merlina's sympathetic motive of wanting to make the kingdom immortal or Sonic's own philosophy of living life to the fullest. Sure you can certainly tell what the characters are doing and feeling in these scenes, but their reasons for acting and feeling the way they do is lost. Could it be done purely through visuals? Well, I suppose that you could show a map of the kingdom and have it turn into a snake, and that makes Merlina cry, so she waves the scabbard and causes the snake to turn into an Ouroboros, then, after the fight Sonic demonstrates that the Ouroboros is unable to go anywhere in it's current state, so he removes its tail from its mouth and lets it slither away. Thing is, that's extremely complicated, it requires the audience to understand the symbolism behind the Ouroboros, and ultimately it still doesn't convey things as clearly as actual written or spoken language could.

Additionally body language, symbolism, and the written or spoken word are not the only way to communicate thoughts or feelings. Other elements of a scene, such as music, setting, and even lighting, can be just as effective at conveying feelings. Sonic Adventure 2 provides the most truly glorious example of this when we compare the levels Lost Colony and Eternal Engine.

Both levels are set around the same area, and use the same (or at least very similar) textures. Neither Eggman or Tails really displays much in the way of body language while piloting their mechs, and the only voice acting consists of the same generic lines used in every level. However, by simply changing the music and lighting of the area the developers are able to convey two entirely unique moods which makes these otherwise similar levels feel as different as night and day.

 

4 hours ago, Pixel said:

Generations made Classic Sonic too cuddly, and I want the full gamut of True Classic Sonic's moods without voice acting.

We agree on that much.

 

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

It'd be nice if people would actually look at the games they're trying to criticize. Do this, this, and this not count as showing emotions beyond calm or snarky?

Well, I didn't mean it quite so literally. Still, 27 minutes of pure snark vs. 3 minutes of everything else is not exactly what I'd call a frequent or varied expressions of emotion. Hell, Team Sonic's story in Heroes is only three minutes long and he still manages to emote just as much, if not more, there than he does in the entirety of Colors.

 

 

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

He's not over the top emotional but he is by no means "unflappably calm".

And I'd wager if he showed much more emotion than that some people would be calling it OOC or "wacky".

For the record the unflappably calm bit was more in reference to '06 than Colors.

Also, I don't know why you think that people would find a more emotional Sonic to be out of character. In my experience people who dislike Colors and it's ilk tend to dislike it at least in part because they feel that Sonic is too subdued. He's a daredevil who defines himself by his love of adventure, so why does he react to Eggman's plots like their a chore or a job he has to do, instead of an exciting new challenge to enjoy? He's about to be sucked into a giant death vortex, so why does his reaction amount to little more than "Oh, bother". The Deadly Six just turned Tails into a robot, drained all life from Earth, and killed everyone else he held dear, so why does he react to them with little more than mild annoyance instead of going apeshit on them like he did on Erazor and Merlina (both of whom did far less to piss him off), or like anyone short of Jesus himself realistically would. True, people who dislike Colors generally aren't huge fans of uber-wackiness, but although Colors and the rest may be considered "wacky" overall the intensity of Sonic's emotional responses is not a major contributing factor.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

Also, I don't know why you think that people would find a more emotional Sonic to be out of character.

Because people already freak about his "snark" and a few bad jokes.

2 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

In my experience people who dislike Colors and it's ilk tend to dislike it at least in part because they feel that Sonic is too subdued. He's a daredevil who defines himself by his love of adventure, so why does he react to Eggman's plots like their a chore or a job he has to do, instead of an exciting new challenge to enjoy?

He does, thus the snark and jokes. Which he then gets shit for for not taking things seriously enough.

[Nepenthe]

Probably because that's all he does anymore with any credibility or follow-through in the plot.

[Lucid Dream]

16 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Because people already freak about his "snark" and a few bad jokes.

He does, thus the snark and jokes. Which he then gets shit for for not taking things seriously enough.

Don't people dislike the snark and jokes, because the jokes are bad and the snark is overdone? I doubt 'lack of seriousness' is the main complaint here. 

Since when was joking inherently emotive or exciting though? There's a whole subgenre of comedy dedicated to making jokes without any apparent emotion (deadpan). 

[Diogenes]

5 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Probably because that's all he does anymore

And we're right back where the argument started, wonderful. I'm out.

[Nepenthe]

You could've not cut out the other half of my post. It's not like I even edited that in after the fact.

[Diogenes]

What difference does it make? If a non-snark/comedic moment ever even gets acknowledged it just gets shot down as not good enough. It's not like any of this is going to change anyone's minds anyway, we've all long ago decided what we see in these games.

[Lucid Dream]

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

What difference does it make? If a non-snark/comedic moment ever even gets acknowledged it just gets shot down as not good enough. It's not like any of this is going to change anyone's minds anyway, we've all long ago decided what we see in these games.

Great way of shifting signposts. First it was 

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

It'd be nice if people would actually look at the games they're trying to criticize. Do this, this, and this not count as showing emotions beyond calm or snarky?

And now it's Non-snark/comedic? 

Maybe the reason this isn't changing anyones mind is because you can't keep the argument in one place? And yes, only showing 1 scene where Sonic breaks completely out of his Calm/snarky mold is not enough. Saying something that boils down to "Jokes are inherently emotive" is not nearly enough or even true. We've explained this to you but you clearly are too stubborn to even try to consider it. At this point you're not arguing, you're just shoving your fingers in your ears. 

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Christmas Dreams said:

Great way of shifting signposts. First it was 

And now it's Non-snark/comedic? 

What difference are you even seeing? I dropped talking about him being calm because Bowbowis clarified that that was referring more to '06. And a lot of the comedy (successful or otherwise) in recent games have come from a snarky direction. So I have, from the start, been talking about the non-snark moments.

[Nepenthe]

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

What difference does it make? If a non-snark/comedic moment ever even gets acknowledged it just gets shot down as not good enough.

That might be because there's context surrounding certain moments that undermine their meaning in the context of the story that people are taking offense to, and not so much whether or not Sonic actually displays a certain quantifiable amount of emotions, because with few exceptions he has shown a multitude of different emotions across the franchise's lifespan and yet not everyone likes every way he's been written.

[azoo]

Dear Pesky Plumbers,

There really is a difference between a character (THE MAIN CHARACTER, at that) being snarky and having a giggle at times, and being snarky and having a giggle all the time. When the former happens, it lightens up the situation. When the latter happens, it can ruin any immersion or weight that the plot is supposed to hold; especially when the rest of the game surrounding it fails to combat this with higher stakes or twists that make the player feel like anything going on is ultimately worth a shit. And especially especially when the writing lets the giggles and snark fall flat because it's either corny or just not funny. And especially especially especially whenever the only thing the characters do is stand in place and nothing happens besides lame dialogue.

Also, to the elephant in the room: are we STILL doing this thing where we talk shit about modern Sonic and praise classic Sonic at a constant? I hope you guys realize this is the equivalent of having a conversation with a group of friends and then your racist grandpa comes in and talks about how Trump won the election fair and square and that women need to know their place. Sure, we can "respect his opinion" and be civil adults about it, but it's not gonna stop the fact that someone is angry about people with different views and thus wants to go out of their way to step on people's toes about it in a smug and self-important manner.. Do you realize how non-fun of a person you are to be like this? Because it ain't cute, my dude.

To the person being referred to in the second paragraph, open your mind some. To the person referred to in the first paragraph, stop splitting hairs and ignoring half the argument to form strawmen in response as if that's gonna improve your argument.

ANYWAYS I just decided to come in here because surprise! After about a month of not paying attention to discussion in this very topic, the discussion is about the same, featuring the same people arguing over just about the same things. Can we just not and talk about something else?

And if this is followed by "well there's nothing else to talk about" then okay! Go to another topic! Talk in the status updates! Be kind and courteous, share stuff you like and stop focusing on what you don't like so much. Talk about other subjects, go outside, and learn to spread joy and love with your fellow colleagues.

Ya dang dumb dummy idiots.

Love, Azoo

 

[Darinian]

Well then, lets have the next post be unargumentative shall we?

I wonder if they'll ever change the stomp after a boost (in the air) to cutting a diagonal in the air instead of going straight down. It always felt more natural like that was supposed to happen because logic. And I'd be pretty darn stoked if boost drifting wasn't a way to get faster. Like... why is drifting on straight land even faster than going forward. It's just more logic breaking.

[Diogenes]

Just now, Zoroark & Flare said:

I wonder if they'll ever change the stomp after a boost (in the air) to cutting a diagonal in the air instead of going straight down. It always felt more natural like that was supposed to happen because logic.

That'd make it way too hard to use it to land accurately, though. I'm not even sure it'd have much of any use like that.

[Darinian]

They could make it so where if you go past the 'just hold forward' speed and make the diagonal cut happen only after you've boosted in air so that yeah, peopke won't completely miss switches/enemies due to their stomp being all wierd.

[Diogenes]

But I still don't see what the point of doing it at all is. Logical or not it just seems like a way to increase your odds of shooting down into a pit with no apparent benefit.

[Darinian]

But if you're in the air about to press B or whatever the stomp button is, chances are you'd look ahead and go "is there anything I need to look out for" or a more simpler thought would "pit= why did I air boost, probably to get over the pit". They could also use it to punish people by making you time it or just by putting pits where people might air boost over previous pits.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Zoroark & Flare
Changed last two sentences because it sounded weird

[Lucid Dream]

49 minutes ago, Zoroark & Flare said:

Well then, lets have the next post be unargumentative shall we?

Well that's just cute.

I always thought Sonics stomp was basically him boosting downwards, hence why it's largely vertical and has that blue burst shield. Making him go horizontally would make speedruns faster, but it would make it a lot harder to get the timing right, and it just seems pretty unnecessary. It'd cause more distress than anything, with people stomping to their death over bottomless pits by accident. 

If Sonic can boost horizontally, why can't he boost vertically? It makes sense IMO. 

[Pixel]

Stomping makes sense from a gameplay sense as it is more fluid.

The main problem with the Modern Gameplay is that it often feels too mechanical and clunky. In fact, I think people like the Adventure gameplay most because it is the most organic.

Obviously, Sonic in 3D has never matched the fluidity of glorious Classic Sonic, but the stomp is a step in the right direction.

[Pixel]

Also, I just want to address the topic that I praise glorious Classic Sonic too much and denigrate the 3D era.

I know this is hard for a lot of Sonic fans to accept, but Modern Sonic is so inferior to Classic Sonic that it's blindingly obvious.  The Classic series had far superior gameplay, level design, art syle, music and were revolutionary, changing the gaming landscape permamently. The best of 3D Sonic is mediocre at best.

Everyone outside the hardcore fanbase knows this, but for some reason, some of the hardcore fans are in complete denial about it. I understand if you personally prefer the 3D titles, but you have to accept that the Classic titles are so obviously better.

The Trump analogy Azoo used is completely absurd and I'm going to be outright confrontional, I won't just sit and be compared with the most regressive man in Western Politics. Even if it is just by association with old, bigoted voters. I mean, come the fuck on.

This is a far better analogy. There's an anime that ran for three seasons and it's groundbreaking. It's technically a marvel and sets a new gold standard for anime going forward. However, in the fourth season, the show completely changes direction and is worse in every conceivable way. Not only does it betray the design philosophy of the original three seasons, but it's a massive drop in quality. Many fans would want to see the series truly go back to the design philosophy of the original seasons, the seasons which made the anime a phenomenon in the first place.

I find this a perfect analogy to Sonic. We haven't had a mainline Classic Sonic game since Sonic and Knuckles and I think it is fucking insanity. Mania is a step in the right direction, but it's not a high budget main release.

And you know, I really should be able to express this completely reasonable opinion. 

[StaticMania]

Nobody's in denial about anything...unless you're in denial about people not being in denial...?

 

Questions...

[Remy]

46 minutes ago, Pixel said:

Also, I just want to address the topic that I praise glorious Classic Sonic too much and denigrate the 3D era.

I know this is hard for a lot of Sonic fans to accept, but Modern Sonic is so inferior to Classic Sonic that it's blindingly obvious.  The Classic series had far superior gameplay, level design, art syle, music and were revolutionary, changing the gaming landscape permamently. The best of 3D Sonic is mediocre at best.

Everyone outside the hardcore fanbase knows this, but for some reason, some of the hardcore fans are in complete denial about it. I understand if you personally prefer the 3D titles, but you have to accept that the Classic titles are so obviously better.

The Trump analogy Azoo used is completely absurd and I'm going to be outright confrontional, I won't just sit and be compared with the most regressive man in Western Politics. Even if it is just by association with old, bigoted voters. I mean, come the fuck on.

This is a far better analogy. There's an anime that ran for three seasons and it's groundbreaking. It's technically a marvel and sets a new gold standard for anime going forward. However, in the fourth season, the show completely changes direction and is worse in every conceivable way. Not only does it betray the design philosophy of the original three seasons, but it's a massive drop in quality. Many fans would want to see the series truly go back to the design philosophy of the original seasons, the seasons which made the anime a phenomenon in the first place.

I find this a perfect analogy to Sonic. We haven't had a mainline Classic Sonic game since Sonic and Knuckles and I think it is fucking insanity. Mania is a step in the right direction, but it's not a high budget main release.

And you know, I really should be able to express this completely reasonable opinion. 

What exactly does this have to do with Sonic 2007, which has classic sonic in it (tbh i think it's weird he is now considered a separate entity but whatever) and is big budget anyway? Would you want a game without the current on the go Sonic and to just revert to the old design entirely? You might not like it man but Sonic in it's current iteration sells fairly well, and people like it. 

The bit about mania throws me off too, man. What would a big budget main release "classic" sonic game look like if not Sonic Mania? I actually think, for the first time in history as someone that grew up on the mega drive titles SEGA are finally handled the split in design well but having an old style game and a new style game in development at the same time, which reminds me of NSMB and the Galaxy/3D World/Land games. If anything, I like Mania better than NSMB because it's preserving the charm and style of the old games without gutting music or art direction. What is it about mania that isn't good enough?

 

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

8 hours ago, Pixel said:

Also, I just want to address the topic that I praise glorious Classic Sonic too much and denigrate the 3D era.

I know this is hard for a lot of Sonic fans to accept, but Modern Sonic is so inferior to Classic Sonic that it's blindingly obvious.  The Classic series had far superior gameplay, level design, art syle, music and were revolutionary, changing the gaming landscape permamently. The best of 3D Sonic is mediocre at best.

Everyone outside the hardcore fanbase knows this, but for some reason, some of the hardcore fans are in complete denial about it. I understand if you personally prefer the 3D titles, but you have to accept that the Classic titles are so obviously better.

The Trump analogy Azoo used is completely absurd and I'm going to be outright confrontional, I won't just sit and be compared with the most regressive man in Western Politics. Even if it is just by association with old, bigoted voters. I mean, come the fuck on.

This is a far better analogy. There's an anime that ran for three seasons and it's groundbreaking. It's technically a marvel and sets a new gold standard for anime going forward. However, in the fourth season, the show completely changes direction and is worse in every conceivable way. Not only does it betray the design philosophy of the original three seasons, but it's a massive drop in quality. Many fans would want to see the series truly go back to the design philosophy of the original seasons, the seasons which made the anime a phenomenon in the first place.

I find this a perfect analogy to Sonic. We haven't had a mainline Classic Sonic game since Sonic and Knuckles and I think it is fucking insanity. Mania is a step in the right direction, but it's not a high budget main release.

And you know, I really should be able to express this completely reasonable opinion. 

Thinking that classic Sonic is way better than modern Sonic is a completely reasonable opinion, sure. But you're being freakin' obnoxious with the way you're repeating the same opinions over and over again in the most over-the-top fashion you can muster, barely bothering to back them up or give reasons why classic Sonic is so glorious and modern Sonic is so bad which amount to much more than rephrasing or being more specific about the statements that "classic Sonic is glorious" and "modern Sonic is bad", making you come across as treating your own opinions as facts and trying to ram them down everyone's throats at every possible turn, even when it's barely relevant. The problem isn't your opinion, the problem is your absolutely terrible way of expressing it. It makes it seem like you either have no idea how opinions actually work, or just don't care. At this point, it's hard to believe you don't know how annoying you're being. You're in extremely hot water right now with your unremittingly poor posting habits and unless you do a literal 180 immediately, I have to warn you, I don't think your chances around here are very good at all.

[Fr0zenanus]

i think the lack of hints, and actual news is going to continue hurting this thread in the long run, though i think people realized that before this thread was even made >.>

i really don't have anything to contribute besides trying to avoid saying the wrong things, (i did that alot)

that event i previously posted is tomorrow in japan (or today at the night of western territories) i don't know if they revealed previous sonic games, exclusively at those events. 

[Red Hot Jack]

That moment when TSSZ was right about 2 Sonic games being in development...

http://www.tssznews.com/2015/12/30/source-at-least-2-sonic-team-titles-intended-for-2016/

Only they got the date wrong, it was for 2017!

Anyway, we may see something tomorrow, there is a Q&A with Iizuka, he may reveal some more bits of info like he did in the last interview.