Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Celestia said:

Yes, I agree!

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Anyway, if SEGA does decide to actually show off more of this game before Mania is out (doubtful, but can we truly predict SEGA? Can we?), what would be a good time for it? I'm going to make the guess everybody makes every year for Sonic announcements that never actually comes true, just to get it out of the way: Feb 2, Hedgehog Day, etc.

Anytime earlier than e3, 

hmm right after this early wave of amazing video games hit might be a good time. That kinda slow period between that dump of games early in the year and e3

[CleverSonicUsername]

1 hour ago, Celestia said:

Yes, I agree!

-

Anyway, if SEGA does decide to actually show off more of this game before Mania is out (doubtful, but can we truly predict SEGA? Can we?), what would be a good time for it? I'm going to make the guess everybody makes every year for Sonic announcements that never actually comes true, just to get it out of the way: Feb 2, Hedgehog Day, etc.

If there's nothing more revealed by Feb 2nd, then I would suspect we won't get anything until E3. Skipping Project 2017 during "hedgehog's day" would be a clear indication that SEGA is focusing their Sonic-based marketing on Mania until release, then shifting gears after. But we'll see.

[Jango]

You know guys.

It feels like it was yesterday when January 2016 rolled over and we were already grasping for Sonic news, targeting every special date and event. Only to get these news in JULY.

Mania gave us a lot of stuff to be excited for, but the Sonic Team's game barely any. And yet here we are again, it feels like no game was announced at all.

This is the longest development cycle in years. Unless Sonic Team's developing another game besides Sonic (oh my God please bring NiGHTS back), P17 is in development since 2013 (Lost World's release year). BUT, the trailer says from the creators of Generations and Colors, and Lost World was made by a different team within Sonic Team, so maybe this game is in development since... 2011?! Nah. They only said "Gens and Colors" because most people liked these games better than Lost World definitely.

In any case, I truly expect and want, P17 to be as big, if not bigger, than Sonic Unleashed. Please God have mercy of their souls if this game isn't sucessful.

[FriendBot]

Lost World was entirely made by Sonic Team, I think TimmiT the stubborn man pulled a quote that proves that. The only reason it wasn't mentioned in 2017's trailer is because of its mediocre reception.

[Jango]

Lost World was entirely made by Sonic Team, I think TimmiT the stubborn man pulled a quote that proves that. The only reason it wasn't mentioned in 2017's trailer is because of its mediocre reception.

That was what I meant. If they had said: "from the creators of Sonic Lost World", people would already start moaning.

[CleverSonicUsername]

2 hours ago, Jango said:

 

You know guys.

 

It feels like it was yesterday when January 2016 rolled over and we were already grasping for Sonic news, targeting every special date and event. Only to get these news in JULY.

I remember hearing about them announcing a date to an announcement which is pretty great.

Personally I think E3 is the soonest anybody is going to get any real substantial news on Project 2017. Given it's a Holiday release, that seems like an appropriate time to start moving forward with marketing.Falls after Mania's launch too, so as soon as people are getting their hands on Mania they're starting to get details on the next big game. Let them focus on each separately while keeping fans invested from one game to the next. 

But that's just me playing armchair marketing. They could put a gameplay trailer out on a Sunday in April for all we know. 

[JingleBoy]

10 hours ago, Soni said:

Lost World was entirely made by Sonic Team, I think TimmiT the stubborn man pulled a quote that proves that. The only reason it wasn't mentioned in 2017's trailer is because of its mediocre reception.

 

9 hours ago, Jango said:

That was what I meant. If they had said: "from the creators of Sonic Lost World", people would already start moaning.

See I get that Sonic Lost World wasn't the greatest, but I really hope Sonic Team won't write it off altogether. Lost World was far from an irredeemable mess and there are a few design aspects that I hope stick around. I've managed to whittle it down to at least four main points. Do y'all like lists? 'Cause you're getting a list.

1. You could actually see yourself behind objects

Okay, this one was lifted straight from the 3D Mario playbook - but I'd go as far as to say that Lost World did it better. Instead of providing a silhouette of the character, you can actually determine their location relative to what's going on around you. Basically you can see what's going on in the environment and this allows you to watch out for hazards as well.

It was obviously implemented because of the lack of proper camera controls, but it shouldn't be ditched. Imagine how much better Knuckles/Rouge's levels in Sonic Adventure 2 could have been with this.

2. Rings fall in a circle instead of bouncing around hectically.   

(footage from Cobanermani456 btw)

Have you ever tried to collect your rings after getting hit as modern Sonic in Generations? It's borderline impossible due to how much they bounce around and due in part to mildly sluggish feeling controls. Lost World made this so much more manageable.  

3. You could cancel your spindash while you were charging it.

To be fair, this was in Generations but it's still worth mentioning. Have you ever accidentally started a spindash only to find that you have no choice but to send yourself hurtling into the unknown? In Lost World you could simply jump to stop yourself from launching into a spin which was very much appreciated. 

4. Little touches that go a long way

(footage from SonicWindBlue)

Did you know that if you leave Sonic idle while skydiving he'll turn around and face the player? I love nice visual flair like this and it's something I don't want Sonic Team to lose touch with. I always thought it was weird that modern Sonic didn't even have a ledge animation in Generations even though classic did.

I read an interview from the 90's where Miyamoto was asked for his opinion on Sonic and he gave an answer that basically equated to "one of Sonic's strongest points is how animated the character is". There's been so much positive reception over how Sonic Mania is bursting with life and emotion, so can't we get the same level of that in Sonic Team games? In fact, here's a Miyamoto interview from 2001, where he gives his thoughts on Sonic 1. "This game has real personality". I'd hate for the franchise to start feeling lifeless when being animated was one of its best highlights.  

So yeah, there you go. What do you think, are there lessons to learn from Lost World, or am I just full of hot-air? ?

[FriendBot]

While I do agree that Lost World isn't Sonic Team's best outing but I still really like it. 

I honestly believe Parkour should be an innate ability Sonic should have, probably not designated to a specific button but rather based on his momentum and stuff. Like the faster you were on ground, the more speed you'll get when run across a wall or something like that. That would make Sonic a lot more interesting to play through and the level design a lot more unique and creative if you ask me.

If Sonic Team could pick some of the better aspects of Lost World to implement and tweak in future games, I'm all down for it.

[Jango]

Nah dude, @JingleBoy, you're not full of hot-air, Lost World had some neat additions that could've been very, and I mean, veeeeery usefull in past 3D Sonic games. Hopefully they will keep'em in later games. I also want the 3D games to be as vivid and animated as Sonic Mania, it's part of Sonic's charm and it always has been. Unleashed had some pretty nice iddle animations and facial expressions, for both Sonic/Werehog and Chip. Colors had a couple of cool "intro sequences". And Lost World had even more stuff, like the free-falling iddle animation. These little touches never left, I just want them pushed to the max now with the PS4 power hehe

 

As for the parkour... well, Sonic Team will need to work on it very hard to make it good, because oh boy. They've managed to screw the JUMPING in LW by adding the parkour and the run-button, I mean, how...?

[Kellan]

16 minutes ago, Jango said:

As for the parkour... well, Sonic Team will need to work on it very hard to make it good, because oh boy. They've managed to screw the JUMPING in LW by adding the parkour and the run-button, I mean, how...?

Ok, I'll bite. What was wrong with the jumping in Lost World?

[FriendBot]

It feels gimped at times, like sometimes you'll jump just fine and other times, you barely gain any distance. Might have to do with the run button, cause if so; that's stupid.

[MegasonicZX]

17 minutes ago, Soni said:

It feels gimped at times, like sometimes you'll jump just fine and other times, you barely gain any distance. Might have to do with the run button, cause if so; that's stupid.

Its really not anything too complicated, basically if your not holding the run button you will get a really short jump that can be handy in some instances but you won't need it unless its for precise platforming (and while I'm not entirely sure about this, jumping from a stand still will also lead to a gimped jump unless your move at least slightly before doing it).

[Blacklightning]

Not to mention you have almost no air control in Lost World - in most cases, once you make a jump you're committed to wherever it'll take you. You can either keep going forward as normal or stop dead in your tracks with almost no middle ground, so trying to control your arc with small, nuanced movements like almost any other Sonic game usually gets you killed.

And while I'm at it, honestly, I like the idea of parkour as a concept but it really should not have needed its own button press in the first place - stuff like wall running should be as simple as jumping into a wall at an angle. Or hell, I give Heroes and ShTH a lot of shit for all manner of things, but homing attacking into a wall generally worked just fine too.

[Diogenes]

Sticking to any wall you brush up against would be terrible, there's got to be some way of telling the game whether or not you want to wallrun. And I don't see an advantage in tying it to the homing attack/air dash over just giving you a button explicitly for it.

[Darinian]

I think having enough speed to keep going on his wall run would/should probably at his top speed without boosting to make sure you don't have to hit dumb levels of speed but also making sure you dont pull a sonic 4/sonic 06

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Zoroark & Flare said:

I think having enough speed to keep going on his wall run would/should probably at his top speed without boosting to make sure you don't have to hit dumb levels of speed but also making sure you dont pull a sonic 4/sonic 06

It really shouldn't require that much, honestly. In the Genesis games the minimum speed you needed was less than half his normal top speed. A little physics defiance makes Sonic interesting, they just need to be sure to enforce some limits so he can't just walk or stand on walls.

[Darinian]

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It really shouldn't require that much, honestly. In the Genesis games the minimum speed you needed was less than half his normal top speed. A little physics defiance makes Sonic interesting, they just need to be sure to enforce some limits so he can't just walk or stand on walls.

I see where you're going and that is pretty true, I'd go with that

[Dr. Detective]

Everytime I think back to how cool that Sonic 2017 trailer was and how often I speculate what I'd like to see the game do as well as the elements I desire for the game to have, I KEEP fucking forgetting that Classic Sonic is also in the thing. I always have to rearrange my fantasies because of it. 

I was just thinking all this in the shower about how cool it was that Classic Sonic's got Mania and how Sonic 2017 is probably gonna be a cool Modern Sonic thing with action and adventure and 3-D. Then I remember that Classic Sonic is also in the game and my mind forces itself to restrict things and I start thinking of how Generations was set-up. And I loved how Generations played but I'd rather not have that kind of presentation again. 

If anything it's a nice tether ball to reality. At the moment it exists from keeping my hype from going too crazy. Although that's kind of sad because I kind of want my hype to go crazy. A trailer for a Sonic game hasn't made me that excited since 08. 

[Blacklightning]

7 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Sticking to any wall you brush up against would be terrible, there's got to be some way of telling the game whether or not you want to wallrun.

You know, I've heard a few people say things along these lines, but I don't think it's quite as hard as people make it sound. You need only look at a game like the 2004 Ninja Gaiden to see it can be made both responsive and unintrusive - not every interaction with a wall needs to end with Sonic gluing himself to it, simply jumping towards it is generally enough to make the distinction on its own. I'm mean, you'd be pretty hard pressed to argue that jumping into walls a lot by accident is either the mark of a good player, or the mark of a decent level designer.

[Bowbowis]

Knuckles and Rouge won't cling to a wall unless they glide into it. Perhaps a middle ground where the player has to jumpdash into the wall and/or hold the jump button down to wall-run? Though I must admit that I don't see any compelling reason not to give parkour its own button, which would eliminate any possibility of an accident and give the mechanic a bit more room to expand beyond simply wall-running.

[Diogenes]

4 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

You know, I've heard a few people say things along these lines, but I don't think it's quite as hard as people make it sound. You need only look at a game like the 2004 Ninja Gaiden to see it can be made both responsive and unintrusive - not every interaction with a wall needs to end with Sonic gluing himself to it, simply jumping towards it is generally enough to make the distinction on its own.

I'm not really familiar with the game, but from a quick look I'm not convinced the needs of an action game with some platforming elements are the same as an explicit platformer, especially one as fast, flow-based, and momentum-heavy as Sonic.

4 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

I'm mean, you'd be pretty hard pressed to argue that jumping into walls a lot by accident is either the mark of a good player

That seems all the more reason to put it on a button, to me; an experienced player may be able to control their character well enough that it wouldn't be a problem, but a player who's still learning the controls isn't going to be helped by having Sonic dart off across the wall instead of crashing into it or being guided along it so they have a moment to reorient themselves.

[Scar]

I mean, why not just map wall running to the trigger buttons. We've had the quickstep before, which allowed a rapid step to the side, why not set it up so when its used while running against a wall it allows Sonic to start running along it.

If the wall is to the left, LT/L1 if the wall is to the right RT/R1 or if its in front LT/L1+RT/R1.

I mean obviously it could do with some refinement, but it saves it from being accidentally triggered while jumping or using any other 'move' mapped to a face button.

[JezMM]

I feel a trigger would work fine and wouldn't be overly complex with some well-designed visual feedback.  Just spit-balling here but in my head I imagine something like, when you push the trigger, the bottom of Sonic's shoes could glow light blue, signifying you're in "wall-sticking" mode at the moment.  If your speed isn't high enough, they pulse red instead.  They could phase between the two colours to signify you're only BARELY going fast enough and are running the risk of falling off a wall any moment now.

It might look a bit corny, or as if Sonic has gained magic powers or something if it was a generic glow, but I'm sure there must be SOME WAY to visually design it that would feel right as part of his overall aesthetic, just like the boost and homing attack special effects do.

 

Think of it in a similar way to how the sparkles provided visual feedback to what you were doing when parkouring in Lost World.

[PickleBrows]

My mind's cast back to the likes of Mirror's Edge when the Sonic parkour controls get brought up.

In that game, you can sprint down a corridor and you'll simply run alongside the wall rather than hopping onto it because the game will only put you on the wall if you jumped towards it, or if you were scraping a wall when you ran off a ledge.

Having it set up like this means that the player's focus can be on what their next move will be as the run along the wall and eventually leave it rather than subconsciously needing to remember to keep one of the triggers pinned down to stay on there in the first place.

[JezMM]

I find it hard to compare Mirror's Edge and Sonic for some reason.  I think in Mirror's Edge I feel very "big" because it's from a first person perspective.  My character's surface area feels very large compared to the immediate environment, making it easy to percieve whether I'm touching a wall or not, especially due to the perspective of the wall from my viewpoint being a direct way of seeing how close I am to it.  Sonic in comparison is a much "smaller" unit on the screen and compared to his immediate environment, and since it's from a third person perspective, the walls you are interacting with will not always look exactly the same perspective-wise every time Sonic is touching one.