Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, Scar said:

If the wall is to the left, LT/L1 if the wall is to the right RT/R1 or if its in front LT/L1+RT/R1.

I think having to specify left or right is overcomplicating it, but this does make me wonder if it's worth having separate "climbing" and "wallrun" moves...

50 minutes ago, Joy said:

Having it set up like this means that the player's focus can be on what their next move will be as the run along the wall and eventually leave it rather than subconsciously needing to remember to keep one of the triggers pinned down to stay on there in the first place.

I really don't think having to hold a button would be too much of an imposition, it's not like that's a rare occurrence in games. And you wouldn't even necessarily need to hold the button to keep wallrunning; the way I imagine it, you'd just have to hold/press it to attach to the wall, and from there it would just require you to keep your speed up.

[Wraith]

Ideally, I think you should simplify Sonic's control scheme as much as possible. Sonic would be able to wall run naturally like he can in Sonic Adventure with level design that accommodates it properly aka lots of curves and shit that lead into walls and less blocky level design. It keeps the control scheme simple.

The down side is that Sonic wouldn't be able to just hop on a flat wall and run across it but that would be pretty clunky to implement anyway.

[Zippo]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: With Classic Sonic in PS2017, Sonic Team may be putting themselves in a very bad position. If he doesn't control 1-1 like the Genesis games, a lot of people (I know exactly who and where they are.) are going to be very angry and very upset. With Mania being so faithful to the classics, in terms of physics, that's just going to make the situation worse, given how they're coming within 6-7 months of each other. One of the most commonly criticized aspects of Generations was how shallow Classic Sonic felt. If Mania is as universally well received as it looks to be right now, expectations for Sonic Team's interpretation of Classic Sonic are unfortunately going to be sky high. And as much as I want Sonic Team to succeed, I don't think they're up to the task. 

[Diogenes]

52 minutes ago, Josh said:

The down side is that Sonic wouldn't be able to just hop on a flat wall and run across it but that would be pretty clunky to implement anyway.

I don't see why it would be.

52 minutes ago, Zippo said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: With Classic Sonic in PS2017, Sonic Team may be putting themselves in a very bad position. If he doesn't control 1-1 like the Genesis games, a lot of people (I know exactly who and where they are.) are going to be very angry and very upset.

Considering Mania's filling the classic Sonic niche better than this game ever could, I'd be willing to give them a pass on not making '17's Classic Sonic accurate to the Genesis games so long as they actually do something interesting with his gameplay. Gens Classic is terrible not just because it wasn't accurate to the classic gameplay, but also because it's a really shallow interpretation of them with nothing else of value to make up for it. If they can at least find something new and interesting for him, well, it wouldn't be my ideal game, but it might be a worthwhile game.

[Pawn]

1 hour ago, Zippo said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: With Classic Sonic in PS2017, Sonic Team may be putting themselves in a very bad position. If he doesn't control 1-1 like the Genesis games, a lot of people (I know exactly who and where they are.) are going to be very angry and very upset. With Mania being so faithful to the classics, in terms of physics, that's just going to make the situation worse, given how they're coming within 6-7 months of each other. One of the most commonly criticized aspects of Generations was how shallow Classic Sonic felt. If Mania is as universally well received as it looks to be right now, expectations for Sonic Team's interpretation of Classic Sonic are unfortunately going to be sky high. And as much as I want Sonic Team to succeed, I don't think they're up to the task. 

True, but Generations may have been too far along by the time they realised just how important this was to people (ie around Sonic 4's release). This time ought to be different, if indeed they are going to attempt it, because they can design levels that work with the Classic physics from the start.

[Jango]

While I think it might still create a few problems, the way Prince of Persia (Sands of Time) handled the wall running was kinda good. Basically, you get near a wall while running and press (R1, I think) and he will run on it as far as the momentum/speed you had before approaching the wall allows. Sonic Lost World works aaaaaaalmost like that, but it never feel as tight nor precise. Other than that, homing attacking a wall like in Heroes / Shadow is also fine by me.

One very important detail, whoever, is the level design. Both SA and SA2 had moments where you run on walls naturally because the landscape is organic and shapped like a ramp, while in Lost World, I don't fucking know WHY, it's all blocky....!?!?

It's not too hard, Sonic Team. Check out the Sonic Utopia demo for references.

[Zippo]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

I don't see why it would be.

Considering Mania's filling the classic Sonic niche better than this game ever could, I'd be willing to give them a pass on not making '17's Classic Sonic accurate to the Genesis games so long as they actually do something interesting with his gameplay. Gens Classic is terrible not just because it wasn't accurate to the classic gameplay, but also because it's a really shallow interpretation of them with nothing else of value to make up for it. If they can at least find something new and interesting for him, well, it wouldn't be my ideal game, but it might be a worthwhile game.

I agree with you completely, but I know there are many people out there who are going to make a giant fuss out of this. It's going to be an uphill battle for them,  and following Taxman and Co.'s example will not be an easy task.

1 hour ago, Pawn said:

True, but Generations may have been too far along by the time they realised just how important this was to people (ie around Sonic 4's release). This time ought to be different, if indeed they are going to attempt it, because they can design levels that work with the Classic physics from the start.

It's not the level design itself that's the problem, though. It's the physics and how Classic Sonic reacts to terrain, not the terrain itself. I believe in a Sonic Team interview for Generations, a Sega rep had said that the physics for Classic Sonic had to be estimated using Generations' engine and that doing a perfect recreation of the original Mega Drive physics would be "nearly impossible". So that doesn't bode well for PS2017's version, based on that answer.

[Toa Axis]

The problem with wall running in LW wasn't the fact that it was tied to a button, but the fact that it was tied to the run button. It made it hard for the game to guess whether you just wanted to move or parkour over/across stuff.

If we were to theoretically keep wall running, some elegant solutions would be to:

a.) Give it its own dedicated input .

b.) Go the Assassin's Creed Unity route and dedicate certain inputs to parkouring in certain directions. For example, if i want to climb a building in Unity, I would sprint and press the "parkour up" button and climb it. If I want to quickly descend a building, I do the same, but hold the "parkour down" button. Though a Sonic game would likely only need the former, and you run the risk of needing too many inputs.

c.) Simply naturally integrate wall run-able surfaces into the terrain and let the physics take care of the rest.

I'm most savvy of either the first or the third, though obviously mechanics should be shaped around the game in question, so depending on what Sonic Team is trying to accomplish, the second option may be necessary.

[Jango]

You guys think Classic Sonic will have the homing attack from the get-go? Because of that ending.. and yeah, whatever.

IT'S SO WEIRD TO NOT BE EXCITED FOR CLASSIC SONIC!

I mean, back in 2011 I was "WHAAAAA" and today I couldn't be more uninterested and EVEN skeptical about his inclusion. This time I'm not too worried about the physics being a little shabby, I just want a fun gameplay, and heck it was fun in Generations, despite not being perfect 1:1 Genesis'ysics, it was a good platformer, beautiful above all things.

At the same time, I'm dying to see Sonic Team make him more cocky and "agressive" and even drop a few words here and there, otherwise, it would be like eating the same cake, but with a different topping. Don't get me wrong, I would still eat that cake and enjoy it -even if it's just Generations 2 with original zones (tho, I love the idea of remaking old zones in 3D and HD)- but f*ck me Mania will already cover the true classic experience majesticaly.

But imagine this for a sec:

Level starts, Classic Sonic, 2D camera. You walk a little and then... BAAM, THE CAMERA FLIPS TO 3D PERSPECTIVE. Now THAT'S a brand new experience.

They should've made Classic cooler here. A bit taller, more like his CD look, almost the in-between classic-dreamcast era. But they didn't. It's the cute bastard again. Wonder which game he will come from this time.

By the way? I would be INCREDIBLY happy if instead of Classic Sonic, it was the Dreamcast Sonic, with SOAP shoes and slangs like "TERIAAAAAA" kicking that rock in the trailer. And better yet, voiced by Ryan-thisishappening-Drummond. It would give a sense of progression. Having Classic Sonic again feels like "playing safe".

Gee. We'll see.

[FriendBot]

Dreamcast Sonic is Modern Sonic, get over it.

[Jango]

Dreamcast Sonic is Modern Sonic, get over it.

My ass, if they bothered calling an Era Dreamcast and the other Modern, they're considering different Sonics.

Pretend I said "my ass" with love, I'm not trying to offend you.

[FriendBot]

That's a pretty weak reason and can bite you back since in Gens 3DS, Egg Emperor is the Modern Era Boss while Seaside Hill was one of the Dreamcast era stages. Unless you want to argue, only the Adventure duology really counts, which makes it even more harder to justify it as an era.

[Scar]

10 minutes ago, Jango said:

 

 

 

 

My ass, if they bothered calling an Era Dreamcast and the other Modern, they're considering different Sonics.

 

Pretend I said "my ass" with love, I'm not trying to offend you.

Given that there wasn't actually a 'Dreamcast Sonic' and that 'Modern Sonic' covers everything post-adventure your posturing is probably incorrect.

The different Sonics seem to reflect the different designs more than the different eras. Classic is classic obviously, and Modern encompasses Dreamcast and Modern.

[Jango]

It's more like a "middle era" to me, honestly. It goes from Sonic Pocket Adventure to Shadow The Hedgehog. It includes both Adventure, Shuffle, the Advance trilogy and Heroes, Sonic Rush being the in-between eras. The "modern" or current era, starts with Sonic 06. But that's how I consider at least. LEAVE ME.

[Indigo Rush]

The Dreamcast era in Generations includes Sonic Heroes, which was not on the Dreamcast.

I'd be hard-pressed to find a belief that cheeses me off more than the idea that Sonic's post-classic design somehow radically changed from the early 00's to the mid-late-00's. A different art style doesn't indicate a different iteration. It's hardly even subjective.

If "Dreamcast Sonic" is a thing, then so should "Saturn Sonic," complete with pointy spines and hands made out of blocks. 

[Captain Fun]

Parkour was worth exploring, even though Lost World kind of botched it. 

I'm kind of anxious about Project 2017. When it was first announced, I was thinking "well, if they can make another game like Generations I'll be satisfied because that was fun."  But now, I wouldn't want to settle for that. 

I think Sonic Mania is looking more and more like what I really want out of the franchise. To be honest, it's just making Sonic Team's offerings look bad (more like worse) by comparison. 

Premature? Maybe, but Sonic Team's track record, IMO doesn't exactly inspire confidence that they're going to refine the gameplay of Generations at all... If this is even based on Generations. Maybe it's not. 

[Jango]

The Dreamcast era in Generations includes Sonic Heroes, which was not on the Dreamcast.

I'd be hard-pressed to find a belief that cheeses me off more than the idea that Sonic's post-classic design somehow radically changed from the early 00's to the mid-late-00's. A different art style doesn't indicate a different iteration. It's hardly even subjective.

If "Dreamcast Sonic" is a thing, then so should "Saturn Sonic," complete with pointy spines and hands made out of blocks. 

Art style not, but gameplay, yes. The "Modern" era has the same philosophy throughout all its games: keep moving foward and fast / sense of speed. Sonic 06 is the only of the bunch that isn't like this, but fuck this game. Both storybook games are like this, both Rush, 1/2 Unleashed, Colors and 1/2 Gens are. Yes! Iizuka said that Generations was the end of an era, that's why Sonic Lost World plays totaly different. Maybe, maybe, just MAYBE, they don't go back to the past phylosophy, and instead, improve what they had in LW. More platforming, more freedom, more exploring.

[Pawn]

2 hours ago, Zippo said:

 

2 hours ago, Zippo said:

It's not the level design itself that's the problem, though. It's the physics and how Classic Sonic reacts to terrain, not the terrain itself. I believe in a Sonic Team interview for Generations, a Sega rep had said that the physics for Classic Sonic had to be estimated using Generations' engine and that doing a perfect recreation of the original Mega Drive physics would be "nearly impossible". So that doesn't bode well for PS2017's version, based on that answer.

The level design is a problem if it works poorly with Classic physics though and my point was that it could have forced the team to alter them. I'm not sure where that quote comes from, but rep or not I don't know how reliable that information is.

[Indigo Rush]

Sonic Adventure 2 and Heroes and 2006 are different enough from each other to seriously challenge this.

You can't just toss 06 away because it's a poor game. 

The storybook games are hardly consistent with each other. 

The post-classic era of Sonic is an unmitigated disaster when you try to categorize them beyond "is it a boost game or not." A conversation on this can't possibly flow well, besides which it's been done to death.

Lost World needs to be shot behind a dumpster. 

[FriendBot]

3 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Lost World needs to be shot behind a dumpster. 

You mean, Sonic Jam on the GameCom right?

[StaticMania]

Lost World can has been pretty good so far...so, that can come back good.

[Jango]

Sonic Adventure 2 and Heroes and 2006 are different enough from each other to seriously challenge this.

You can't just toss 06 away because it's a poor game. 

The storybook games are hardly consistent with each other. 

The post-classic era of Sonic is an unmitigated disaster when you try to categorize them beyond "is it a boost game or not." A conversation on this can't possibly flow well, besides which it's been done to death.

Lost World needs to be shot behind a dumpster. 

How could you said this about LW, but criticize me for not counting Sonic 06? Sorry, but that game is still loading, pal [emoji14]

This discussion haven't been done to

death... I believe that yes, there are two kinds of "Modern" Sonic phylosophies. Let's just stick to the main line games. Yes, SA and Heroes are different, I agree, just like Unleashed and Colors. But they share more similarities than SA and Unleashed, for instance. Game phylosophy. Embrace it.

[Wraith]

Dreamcast Sonic isn't a thing until Sega makes it so, just like the Classic and Modern divide wasn't a thing until Sega did it. There's no point in discussing it beyond that unless you guys like having the same arguments in this thread about how much the Modern games have changed from the Dreamcast ones and whether or not thats a good thing and all that shit. 

[Indigo Rush]

...philosophy implies there's a consistent train of thought with the design of the games.

Can't embrace something that's only mildly more tangible than cotton candy.

Both Lost World and Sonic 06 are trash. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue for, at this point.

[Jango]

...philosophy implies there's a consistent train of thought with the design of the games. Can't embrace something that's mildly more tangible than cotton candy.

Both Lost World and Sonic 06 are trash. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue for, at this point.

I'm trying to explain that there's some consistence in Sonic's inconsistence. That the series has gone wild, BUT, at least 3 philosophies stand out:

2D platforming; 3D action/adventure platforming; 2D/3D speed platforming (almost gimmick-y); and now 2D/3D action/adventure, which only had Lost World so far.

And there's Boom!, which is action/adventure hack n' slash.