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Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"


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2 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

... Is it my imagination...

Of was that image also one of the Sonic Boom concept art designs? 

No really I'm sure they had a design which looked a lot like that.

EJsay39.jpg

It sort of was? They did go with more hedgehog-like designs, but I do not recall anything photo-realistic.

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3 hours ago, JingleBoy said:

I don't think SEGA would be so stupid as to have a gritty and somewhat photo-realistic aesthetic like Adventure 2, Shadow and '06 all tried and failed at.

Talking only about the art style, I don't really agree that those games failed. Adventure 2 and Shadow look really cool to me. And '06 at least looked good during the pre-rendered cutscenes. Not so much during gameplay, though. Too many dull, grey textures.

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Man I know everyone's got their own tastes, but I can't wrap my head around thinking this:

j6ung4u.png

...looks "cool" or anything like a Sonic game should.

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If that's what you grew up with, you're gonna have a soft spot for it. Not hard to understand. I feel like it's where a lot of sonic preferences came from no matter what Era you actually like.

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31 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Man I know everyone's got their own tastes, but I can't wrap my head around thinking this:

j6ung4u.png

...looks "cool" or anything like a Sonic game should.

It's a city street at night, what's the problem?

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3 minutes ago, Kellan said:

It's a city street at night, what's the problem?

Does city streets at night usually have burning, broke down taxis and alien spores?

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10 minutes ago, Kellan said:

It's a city street at night, what's the problem?

It's all dull grays and mud colors, with some greasy plastic cartoon characters sliding through it. Sonic games should be bold and exciting, not looking like the kind of alleys you might get mugged in. Even SA did "city at night" better, with far less to work with.

Hell, you called out '06 for having too many "dull, gray textures", is that not exactly what this is?

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Oh god, the thought of Project 2017 looking like Shadow the game is terrifying. Apart from a few stages, like Sky troops, that game looked pretty bland and dull. I mean just compare this 

shadow-the-hedgehog-20050729043513142.jp

To this 

latest?cb=20160809103420

I can't even believe that Shadow came out just a year after Heroes. Look at all the bright, crazy and ecstatic energy present in Heroes and Advance 2/3. It gives off such a fun atmosphere. Shadow utterly fails in being engaging like that most of the time. 

I know there was that teaser for Project 2017, but I'm still slightly worried that Sonic Team might revert back to that awful design in Shadow in an attempt to give it a darker atmosphere. If it happened before, it can happen again. I'd like to think Sonic Team know better now though. Hopefully they won't make that mistake again. 

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I guess I really had a problem with '06's textures because those greys appeared in the hub-world, which was supposed to be in the middle of the day, in a coastal city. The way everything was grey made it seem as though the sky was constantly covered in clouds, even though the skybox had a whole lot of blue in it. Plus, I think the city was supposed to be in the middle of a festival, right? That really makes the lack of color confusing.

The screenshot of Shadow posted, on the other hand, is from the Central City level, I believe. This level takes place in the middle of the night, during an alien invasion. Yes, the colors look dark and dreary, but the tone of the level is dark and dreary. The humans are losing to the aliens at this point in the game, and things are supposed to seem hopeless for them. I think the colors convey the tone well.

Feel free to disagree with me, of course. I know a lot of people don't like the games having that kind of tone at all, so they'll naturally hate Shadow's art style. And that's fine, different strokes and all that.

14 minutes ago, Lucid Dream said:

I mean just compare this 

shadow-the-hedgehog-20050729043513142.jp

To this 

latest?cb=20160809103420

Why are you comparing Casino Park with Prison Island, and not a stage like Circus Park?IMG_3184.JPGI'd say this shows your point even better since even Shadow's circus level looks kinda dark.

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2 minutes ago, Kellan said:

The screenshot of Shadow posted, on the other hand, is from the Central City level, I believe. This level takes place in the middle of the night, during an alien invasion. Yes, the colors look dark and dreary, but the tone of the level is dark and dreary. The humans are losing to the aliens at this point in the game, and things are supposed to seem hopeless for them. I think the colors convey the tone well.

There's hardly any levels in ShtH that don't look like that, though. Outside of one or two stages, it's either dark, muddy, and grimy-looking, or sickly neon laid over dark, muddy grime. GUN Fortress and Iron Jungle are maybe the only stages I don't hate to look at, and even then those are stages that would be on the "darker" side in a standard Sonic game.

I mean, maybe that does fit with the game's tone, but to me that says the game's tone isn't a fit for the series. And in any case the game's art style still looks unpleasantly sickly and gross to me. :\

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33 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

There's hardly any levels in ShtH that don't look like that, though. Outside of one or two stages, it's either dark, muddy, and grimy-looking, or sickly neon laid over dark, muddy grime. GUN Fortress and Iron Jungle are maybe the only stages I don't hate to look at, and even then those are stages that would be on the "darker" side in a standard Sonic game.

I mean, maybe that does fit with the game's tone, but to me that says the game's tone isn't a fit for the series. And in any case the game's art style still looks unpleasantly sickly and gross to me. :\

Would you have been less bothered by the darker tone if the stages used a wider variety of colors besides just the muddy dark colors? Not snarking or anything, I'm just curious. Just because it can be dark in tone/atmosphere doesn't mean it can't be colorful. I mean look at Majora's Mask.

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Just now, SenEDtor Missile said:

Would you have been less bothered by the darker tone if the stages used a wider variety of colors besides just the muddy dark colors? Not snarking or anything, I'm just curious.

It probably would make the game easier to look at, but the game's tone would still be at odds with the rest of the series.

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I'm really not sure what else they could have done about ShTH to be frank. They'd already set themselves up for a fall the moment they made Shadow use guns and deliberately sell the game on edge factor - anything they could have done would only have mitigated that, even if it were completely indistiguishable from Heroes in every other way, because the focus tested bullshit would still be there.

It's kind of hard to say what this means for Project '17, but considering '17 didn't open its reveal by shooting the fucking screen apart (during a celebration of their previous games no less - you can't make this shit up, they were literally attacking their own legacy), I still hold out hope that they're trying to set themselves up on pretention of high stakes rather than trying to sell themselves on edginess. Were it the latter, I don't think Classic Sonic would ever have entered the equation at all.

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19 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It probably would make the game easier to look at, but the game's tone would still be at odds with the rest of the series.

I guess? I've always been more bothered by poorly executed stories and badly handled tone shifts more than the actual shift itself, or any other additional dark/edgy stuff. And frankly I've always found the whole thing against Sonic for just having dark concepts rather dumb (execution I won't debate) considering that when you compare him with his platforming peers, you'll find things like:

Mario (Paper Mario in this case):

Abuse (Beldam belittling Vivian)

The mafia (Don Pianta and the Robbos)

Pretty much everything regarding Dimentio and his insanity

Sly Cooper:

The main villain essentially being a revenge-driven robotic serial killer hell bent on tormenting a single group of people for all eternity out of jealousy (Clockwerk)

Government corruption/conspiracy/smuggling rings for drugs (The Klaww Gang)

Following the Law vs Following Morality (Carmelita)

The death of the protagonist's father driving his initial goals in the first game

Jak and Daxter:

Pretty much all of it.

 

or even going out of platforming to other media like Avatar (War, genocide, revenge, loss, etc.) Kung Fu Panda (genocide, attempted patricide, self-doubt, etc.) and so on and so forth, the attempts at dark stuff in Sonic seem relatively tame by comparison and just never really struck me as anything beyond a "huh...ok, whatever." BAD execution I can understand, but harping on Sonic for the concepts alone just strikes me as really silly at best.

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I can understand it in the sense that the classic era games don't ever actually go THAT deep, and a work being darker or covering "real" subjects doesn't necessarily make it better. Especially when it comes to a franchise not so focused on the plot. It could be a difference in priorities. If you come to Sonic for some light, breezy storytelling and fast paced robot smashing, military conspiracies and violent alien takeovers probably put a damper on the experience for you.

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On 1/25/2017 at 11:21 AM, Clewis said:

I don't really understand this mentality. I mean, I know Mania and Project 2017 were announced around the same time, but I highly doubt Mania was in development before Sonic Team's game.

People want to act like Sonic Team greenlighted Mania and then said to themselves "Well, even though we've already got a classic-focused game in the works, let's throw classic Sonic in our game anyway", and that just seems silly to me.

I don't think anyone is actually saying that. 

I think what people are saying is that with Sonic mania existing, it kind of eliminates the need for classic sonic to be in modern game for a great deal of people. For classic fans, they literally yelled for over a decade and got the exact thing they wanted. The novelty of classic sonic in generations, had novelty because they had not gotten that thing they wanted, but now they have it. And given segas last few outings a lot of them probably think the 2d physics in this game will be better than 17 ( if they exist ) that shunts of their desire for that entierly. As jeff gertsman put it " they put a modern sonic trailer at the end like  ' ooh its coming' like who actually wants that" now that it exists... the people who want that can just ...have that .

On the reverse side, its also bad because for another sections of fans, this trailer what little was there represents what is essentially giant screw you to a lot of things they wanted. They see sonic, some fire and they go " oh man, actual stakes" they see he needs help they go " oh shit, other characters" and you get.... classic sonic. And they go, if I wanted to play classic sonic... why wouldn't I just play mania, this isn't really giving me any hope .All their critcisms of the narratives being nothing, sega essentially folding to criticism and not actually analyzing, maybe the idea of sega wanting to get rid of them seem a lot more true. Why buy their games, they clearly do not want you there anymore, don't you see classic sonic, I hope you aren't one of those weirdos who like adventure or something. 

I don't think anyone is saying that sega had all this planned out like some supervillian, they don't. Sega doesn't plan a lot of things TBH, but thinking about this, might have been a good idea. I feel like this situation as it is exactly is the exact reason why they didn't want to do classic sonic for the longest, and then they did it 

There is an art to making a trailer, there is an art to knowing what your audience wants and how many different audiences you have. And the trailer presented presents one huge flaw , who is this game for? And that's the problem, no one knows. And given segas last outings, they don't trust sega to even know that either. 

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On 1/25/2017 at 8:29 PM, Azoo said:

That's what irritates me so badly more than anything, and in all honesty it's part of why I didn't like Generations as much as others may have, because the concept itself just gave me the impression we were going for a full-on hard splitting of the fandom and I could see it from miles and miles away. Does that make marketing and critical success easier for them? Probably, maybe yeah. But does that also cut out a large wad of whatever integrity was left in favor of the dumb way out? In my opinion, it kinda does!

Generations split sonic into 3 as far as fanbase is concerned I would argue.  

And for a section of the fanbase, generations was the turning point of sega becoming a lot more cynical and standoff ish to their approach to them .

 

" we don't really wanna make things for you, because you all are weirdos. But we want your money... I mean we wont do anything for it, infact if we do anything it will be cynical at best... but we still want your money" 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, SenEDtor Missile said:

I guess? I've always been more bothered by poorly executed stories and badly handled tone shifts more than the actual shift itself, or any other additional dark/edgy stuff. And frankly I've always found the whole thing against Sonic for just having dark concepts rather dumb ...

The thing about this is...as much as it gets phrased this way, by myself included, being cartoony and having talking animals does not inherently prevent a work from addressing serious themes. But any work, cartoony or realistic, needs to be able to sell its themes to the audience. And not every choice of style or setting or character (etc) will work for every kind of theme. Even before the series' reputation was shot, the nature of the series was not conducive to serious themes. In part because of things like the character designs, because it's an uphill battle for people to take seriously something that looks like a children's cartoon, but also because the series never strived to have much depth at that point.

Sonic was created in the era Mario dominated, he was created specifically to rival Mario, and the series absolutely operated on a similar level, if maybe a step ahead. The basic premise of the series is as stock as it gets. A mad scientist does mad sciencey stuff to Take Over The World, and a plucky hero shows up to stop him. About all they left out is the villain kidnapping his girlfriend oh wait. Sonic himself had a bit more personality than most of his contemporaries, but it wasn't any kind of deep philosophy, meaningful backstory, or any kind of arc; he fought for his friends, liked to go fast, and had some 90's 'tude. Eggman was The Bad Guy. The archetypical mad scientist. Less nuanced than Dr. Wily. And as far as themes actually presented in the Genesis games, there's like, a bit of environmentalism, mostly in CD. Like, Captain Planet level stuff, not really raising serious discussion any more than Bowser kidnapping Peach raised serious discussions of the sociopolitical consequences of kidnapping royalty.

So where do you go from there? If you want to introduce more serious material, what part of this do you build it on for it to make sense in the world that you've created? I'm not going to say there was nothing to work with, but I do think they kinda blew their load with SA. They made a solid side-story out of the issue of the kidnapped animals shoved into robots, which I think still stands as the high point of serious writing in the series, in part because they explored something pretty fundamental to the series. And they (sort of) explained Knuckles and Angel Island's deal, with mixed results...some parts work, some parts don't, some parts maybe push a little too far. But once they said their piece on those subjects, what's left? What part of the Sonic universe really justified serious treatment?

That's why SA2 feels like another big shift to me. Because they didn't have (or couldn't seem to find) material to work with, they invented some. Suddenly Eggman has a grandfather, and the grandfather has a sick granddaughter and a test tube hedgehog, in space, and he works for the government that suddenly exists, and pretty much the whole "serious" part of the story is about these guys and...where do the speedy little jerk and mad roboticist fit in? What of what they're doing relates to all the stuff about Gerald and Maria and Shadow's angst? It's almost like some unrelated script got shuffled in with a Sonic script and they did their best to patch up the seams.

And I'm not saying the mistake is introducing new elements to the series. The Good Shit in SA2 is the Sonic vs Shadow rivalry. The part where Sonic gets into shit because there's an impostor running around, and the new guy outspeeds Sonic, but only by cheating. And how that gets to Sonic, how he can't tolerate this cheating chump nosing in on his territory, and how Shadow feels likewise towards him, because he sees himself as fundamentally better. And how Sonic catches up to him, shattering Shadow's superiority because Sonic is, as he says, "just a guy who loves adventure", and all the genetic engineering in the world don't mean shit. That's good stuff, interesting stuff for both characters, and it works, because it's actually rooted in something fundamental to the series.

So that's what so much of the series hasn't done, one of the reasons why so many attempts to be serious don't work, it just spiraled off doing whatever random idea they could shove Sonic into. They don't have the structures in place to build deeper stories on, and they don't take the time to build them before rushing off. We can't get serious elements that work until they establish the series enough to have something to ground them in.

And about those Mario examples...are abuse, organized crime, and mental illness serious issues in the real world? Sure. Are they serious issues in those particular examples? No, they really aren't. Vivian's stuff is basically on the level of a kid's show's anti-bullying episode, Beldam says some mean stuff and Vivian just needs to learn to stand up to her and then everything's fixed. The pianta mafia are basically teddybears, the whole thing's just for flavor; all it amounts to is talking through some familial issues, it's not like you're dealing with murders and drug deals. And Dimentio being crazy is no different than 90% of video game bad guys, in that it only manifests as "he's crazy and evil! Beat him up to save the world!" If Mario actually tried to make a serious point out of any of these things, it'd collapse just as badly as so many of Sonic's attempts.

Anyway it's late and this is really rambly, sorry if it doesn't make much sense, but I do think there's some worthwhile points in there.

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I said this a while ago but I would point out that the trailer isn't actually particularly edgy or serious once Classic Sonic shows up. He's still all happily and smiley when he saves Modern who also starts smiling again upon seeing him.

Sure, we're in an apocalyptic city the whole time but Sonic doesn't seem to be over-the-top serious about it. I mean he's watching three massive robots wrecking havoc in a destroyed city, of course he's going to look more ticked off than usual. Even in Lost World, and to a lesser extend Colours, he got serious if somebody got hurt, captured etc. 

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1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

We can't get serious elements that work until they establish the series enough to have something to ground them in.

It's been over 25 years now, I'd say there's plenty of things established by now. There are a ton of stories you could do using the elements already in the series. I mean, look at the comics, they do it all the time.

 

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

And I'm not saying the mistake is introducing new elements to the series.

I've read your post a couple of times, and it really does seem to me like that's what you're saying.

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2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Sonic was created in the era Mario dominated, he was created specifically to rival Mario, and the series absolutely operated on a similar level, if maybe a step ahead. The basic premise of the series is as stock as it gets. A mad scientist does mad sciencey stuff to Take Over The World, and a plucky hero shows up to stop him. About all they left out is the villain kidnapping his girlfriend oh wait. Sonic himself had a bit more personality than most of his contemporaries, but it wasn't any kind of deep philosophy, meaningful backstory, or any kind of arc; he fought for his friends, liked to go fast, and had some 90's 'tude. Eggman was The Bad Guy. The archetypical mad scientist. Less nuanced than Dr. Wily. And as far as themes actually presented in the Genesis games, there's like, a bit of environmentalism, mostly in CD. Like, Captain Planet level stuff, not really raising serious discussion any more than Bowser kidnapping Peach raised serious discussions of the sociopolitical consequences of kidnapping royalty.

So where do you go from there? If you want to introduce more serious material, what part of this do you build it on for it to make sense in the world that you've created? I'm not going to say there was nothing to work with, but I do think they kinda blew their load with SA. They made a solid side-story out of the issue of the kidnapped animals shoved into robots, which I think still stands as the high point of serious writing in the series, in part because they explored something pretty fundamental to the series. And they (sort of) explained Knuckles and Angel Island's deal, with mixed results...some parts work, some parts don't, some parts maybe push a little too far. But once they said their piece on those subjects, what's left? What part of the Sonic universe really justified serious treatment?

You need to take into account all the other Sonic media of the 90s and then you'll realise that the darker elements didn't begin with Sonic Adventure but instead have always been a part of the Sonic franchise. After all, given the limitations of game consoles at the time if you weren't making a RPG it wasn't always feasible to include much of a story outside of the game's manual. This is why the Sonic franchise relied heavily on other media like the TV shows and comics to provide further details on Sonic's universe. This lead to many different takes on the Sonic universe, using the original games as source material, most of which invariably lead to a darker tone for the whole Sonic franchise, helping to define the franchise as a whole.

After all, I think that quite a few examples of darker Sonic moments pre-date Sonic Adventure. I shouldn’t have to remind anyone of SatAM, which had a dark and epic tone but still remained a fun adventure story. While just a couple of years later, the Sonic OVA would also go into darker territory, revealing that the ‘ancient ruins’ in the Land of Darkness was actually a post-apocalyptic version of New York city. While both the US and UK versions of the Sonic comic also offered plenty of darker themes and drama, as is fitting for such narrative driven material. Together all these separate elements show that the tone set for Sonic Adventure wasn’t something different but rather a continuation of what has always been dark about the Sonic franchise, now that Sonic Team had the technology to match the TV shows and comics.

As for Project Sonic 2017, I don’t know what sort of story it will have but I do know that I’d be just fine with a darker tone. The image of a burning city, evidently at the hands of Dr Eggman (and classic Dr Robotnik as well?), suggests that the stakes might be higher now than in Sonic Generations. That being the case Sonic Team can go quite farther with how dark they want this new story to be, if they so choose. Which shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone who knows the vast and varied history of the Sonic franchise as whole, you only need to look at Sonic’s beginnings in the 90s to see that a certain darkness has always been part of Sonic media. This means that a darker Project Sonic 2017 would be a return to form, in keeping with what has already been established.

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5 hours ago, Josh said:

I can understand it in the sense that the classic era games don't ever actually go THAT deep, and a work being darker or covering "real" subjects doesn't necessarily make it better. Especially when it comes to a franchise not so focused on the plot. It could be a difference in priorities. If you come to Sonic for some light, breezy storytelling and fast paced robot smashing, military conspiracies and violent alien takeovers probably put a damper on the experience for you.

Big emphasis on "probably" because things like military conspiracies and violent alien takeovers are storytelling tools that can work on the same spectrum as fast paced robot smashing, and some might want more than just smashing robots for years. If I come to a franchise expecting fast paced robot smashing and I get a military conspiracy out of it, I wouldn't find that a damper on the experience because it's a military conspiracy than I would how that conspiracy is told alongside fast paced robot smashing. And "how" something is told is something a lot of people really don't get or want to understand even if you tell them.

Let's not paint these things with a black-and-white brush of priorities. People come to Sonic for a lot of different things just like they would come for Disney/Pixar movie or Pokemon for a lot of things be it for gameplay, characters, the world, etc. And they get plenty of surprises they didn't come to along the way--you might expect fun family moments like a bunny finding her place in a diverse city in Zootopia while dealing with a shady fox along the way, and you'll get surprised by the government conspiracy and allegory to racism, bigotry, and the sociopolitical consequences of the two that the story is telling you; you might expect a fun competitive Pokemon battles with cool or cute monsters from the games or the anime and get shocked at things like Mewtwo straight up killing his creators because he was upset with why he was made in the opening of the First Movie while he tries to find a purpose in life. Likewise, people came to SA1 for the usual Sonic flare and (at the time) were blown away by the opening that showed a water dragon destroying a whole city and the plot surrounding it, and then the came to SA2 which delivered more backstory into Eggman, a conspiracy that ropes Sonic into that backstory's legacy, and a dark scheme said legacy was trying to pull off as they both covered themes of how damaging and unhealthy unrestrained revenge can be.

The list can go on, but the point is that none of those things would seem conductive to serious themes in something that looks like it's marketed to children, yet (especially with the Zootopia example) these things in themselves don't automatically put a damper on your experience unless you're that bothered by it even being around regardless of what, how, and why it's delivering this experience--so even if SA2 were stylized more to feel like a cartoony setting Sonic could be in, if you would still be bothered by it keeping it's tense military conspiracy, lord only knows what else one would be bothered by regardless of how "Sonic-y" they try to make it that doesn't fit whatever strict and narrow standard they wanted to have applied to it. This is why execution and delivery are a thing, and why botching it up is how we get shit like Shadow the Hedgehog about an alien backstory whereas others manage to make these similar devices work in stories like Lilo and Stitch when they succeed despite the narrative still being just as bizarre.

Long story short, those things that would probably put a damper on someone experience probably wouldn't have if the folks behind them used their tools well. And most of us are already aware that Sonic Team has had difficulty with using their tools on plenty of occasions as we look at the quality their stories in hindsight, but a franchise not so focused on the plot could very well have made a big leap with more plot (and indeed, Sonic did just that around the Adventure era before the folks behind the franchise lost their writing chops starting with Heroes) if the folks behind it were more considerate with how they were doing it, how it would work, and how it would sit with their audience.

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9 hours ago, Kellan said:

It's been over 25 years now, I'd say there's plenty of things established by now. There are a ton of stories you could do using the elements already in the series.

The problem is that most of what the series has introduced has been very self-contained. Each game invents a new setting and characters and gimmicks and tells a story mostly about those new things, without much thought in relating them to any of the series' main characters or to the existing setting. They also tend to solve all their own problems; villains are killed or sealed away, allies have worked through their issues and sometimes outright disappear, mystical artifacts are used up. Rarely are we ever left with hanging threads for future games to build on. Most of the things that the series has done almost feel like they exist in their own little bubbles, rather than being properly integrated into the series. That's not solid ground to build on.

9 hours ago, Kellan said:

I've read your post a couple of times, and it really does seem to me like that's what you're saying.

Then you're reading it wrong. I gave plenty of praise to Gamma's story and to the Sonic-Shadow rivalry in SA2, both predicated on new characters.

9 hours ago, Kintor said:

You need to take into account all the other Sonic media of the 90s

I really don't think I do. What a bunch of wildly divergent comics and shows did has nothing to do with the games' continuity. Every last one of them made shit up that was nothing like the games, and while that may have been a necessity given the limited material the games provided, it doesn't mean they're somehow more "true" to the essence of the series than the games themselves.

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12 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

They also tend to solve all their own problems; villains are killed or sealed away, allies have worked through their issues and sometimes outright disappear, mystical artifacts are used up. Rarely are we ever left with hanging threads for future games to build on. Most of the things that the series has done almost feel like they exist in their own little bubbles, rather than being properly integrated into the series. That's not solid ground to build on.

Hanging threads that I can name off the top of my head:

The Eclipse Cannon still exists and is presumably operational.

E-123 Omega still wants to kill Dr. Eggman.

Metal Sonic occasionally likes to gain sentience.

Shadow, Rouge, and Omega presumably still work for G.U.N.

Tails is capable of making fake Chaos Emeralds.

Almost none of the characters have any sort of backstory.

Wasn't there something going on with Little Planet?

Sonic may or may not remember Sonic '06.

The Zeti are either dead, or still at large

Fang, Bark, and Bean are still at large.

The Babylon Rogues are still at large.

Eggman Nega is still at large.

Dr. Eggman is still at large.

etc.

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I don't like Episode 2 at all but I think Eggman recapturing Little Planet and making a death egg out of it was pretty clever idea. It was mostly an excuse plot though and not a meaningful connection. 

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