Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[FriendBot]

9 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Not exactly.

Keep in mind that in Sonic Adventure that was only the SECOND time Eggman had ever tricked Knuckles like that.

With his reclusive lifestyle away from anyone, that's more of a "second chance" deal instead of stupidity. Eggman, evil as he is, was still the first person Knuckles had seen in his life basically. So it was still within the time frame of his life where... Yeah... Maybe it's worth giving a second chance.

Kind of like a Batman/Joker relationship.

Ok yeah no, we all know that Eggman will never reform. Every time Eggman tell Knuckles that he has changed his ways; it turns out he's lying. It may be the second time but Knuckles is already aware of Eggman's character in 3&K. Doesn't help that Eggman made Chaos, you know the creature Knuckles thought destroyed the ME, attack Knuckles before telling him off about how "oh yeah Sonic is after your emeralds k bi".

You might justify it as Knux can see the good in him but as far as I can know, Sonic Team is not interested in going deep with that idea.

Also Batman isn't gullible, sure he teams up with the Joker when he has no choice but I doubt he considers the Joker as an ally or "friend". He's his sworn enemy but he has his morals that he'll never kill anyone. 

THAT'S ENTIRELY DIFFERENT to how Knuckles and Eggman's dynamic is like.

 

I also like to point out that in the Boom universe, Knuckles doesn't trust Eggman. Heck, HE was the one that tricked Eggman (it's from the comic but hey, Flynn wrote two episodes for Season 2 so meh whatever). If the supposedly "dumber" Knuckles knows to atleast not believe a word from the bad guy yet the supposedly "smarter" Main Series Knuckles believes him MORE than once. 

In complete honesty, Boom Knuckles is smarter than Main Series Knuckles.

[Dejimon11]

2 hours ago, Josh said:

What about when it happened again in SA1? Or when he continued to be boneheaded in the games after?

I think people kind of refuse to accept that Knuckles is kind of a goofball inherently. This doesn't have to be a bad thing, guys.

I was actually referring to since the beginning. But yeah after Adventure he's pretty dense. 

[Chris Knopps]

16 minutes ago, Soni said:

Ok yeah no, we all know that Eggman will never reform. Every time Eggman tell Knuckles that he has changed his ways; it turns out he's lying. It may be the second time but Knuckles is already aware of Eggman's character in 3&K. Doesn't help that Eggman made Chaos, you know the creature Knuckles thought destroyed the ME, attack Knuckles before telling him off about how "oh yeah Sonic is after your emeralds k bi".

You might justify it as Knux can see the good in him but as far as I can know, Sonic Team is not interested in going deep with that idea.

Also Batman isn't gullible, sure he teams up with the Joker when he has no choice but I doubt he considers the Joker as an ally or "friend". He's his sworn enemy but he has his morals that he'll never kill anyone. 

THAT'S ENTIRELY DIFFERENT to how Knuckles and Eggman's dynamic is like.

Ok yeah yes.

Neither will Joker.

Batman is completely aware of the Joker's character as well.

That is a point toward ignorance.

Batman is extremely gullible. If a villain pleads for help, no matter what they did he'll jump into action. Think of one of the recent games where he tried to save Joker from dying due to a terminal illness.

That's exactly what both Sonic and Knuckles do with Eggman when necessity calls for it, and that's their relationship until the recent "bro-nemies" emphasized in the past year or two between Sonic and Eggman.

It's really not. Knuckles was fooled twice, Batman has been fooled... Geez. I can't count. Again, if being tricked means stupidity, Batman has Knuckles beat by far.

(Edit)

This is kind of one of those Robotnik-vs-Eggman and Classic-vs-Modern debates that go on and on for eternity... Some stand firm in the past defining stupidity, others define it as gullibility so... Agree to disagree?

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Batman is extremely gullible. If a villain pleads for help, no matter what they did he'll jump into action.

This isn't gullibility caused by stupidity. It's because of his moral code. If he goes to save a villian it's because of his commitment to not killing (even by inaction) or his belief in the possibility of redemption or something of that sort. It might be naive, it might put him in more danger than it's worth, but there's reasoning behind it. At least most of the time; I wouldn't doubt there have been times over the years when he has done some outright stupid things just because of bad/lazy writers.

There's no moral code involved in Knuckles believing any bullshit Eggman spouts and going off to attack an ally because of it. There's no sensible logic behind it. It's mindlessly accepting the word of a proven enemy against a proven ally.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

This isn't gullibility caused by stupidity. It's because of his moral code. If he goes to save a villian it's because of his commitment to not killing (even by inaction) or his belief in the possibility of redemption or something of that sort. It might be naive, it might put him in more danger than it's worth, but there's reasoning behind it. At least most of the time; I wouldn't doubt there have been times over the years when he has done some outright stupid things just because of bad/lazy writers.

There's no moral code involved in Knuckles believing any bullshit Eggman spouts and going off to attack an ally because of it. There's no sensible logic behind it. It's mindlessly accepting the word of a proven enemy against a proven ally.

I'd think of it as more of an inner combative nature he can't really do anything about. The echidna race no matter the canon has always been a very violent species bent on battle and warfare. When you compare Knuckles to his ancestors he's actually a heck of a lot more mellow, save for Tikal who was more on his level than his ancestors. Knuckles would be considered an evolution mentally when you consider this.

Many forget this little detail. When his switch for combat gets flipped turning it off isn't so easy until he won or lost a fight and can simmer down. Blame this on nature, not stupidity really.

[FriendBot]

8 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

I'd think of it as more of an inner combative nature he can't really do anything about. The echidna race no matter the canon has always been a very violent species bent on battle and warfare. When you compare Knuckles to his ancestors he's actually a heck of a lot more mellow, save for Tikal who was more on his level than his ancestors. Knuckles would be considered an evolution mentally when you consider this.

Many forget this little detail. When his switch for combat gets flipped turning it off isn't so easy until he won or lost a fight and can simmer down. Blame this on nature, not stupidity really.

....what, what are you even talking about?

[Chris Knopps]

28 minutes ago, Soni said:

....what, what are you even talking about?

Dio mentioned how Knuckles believed Eggman and attacked an ally because of that. I was basically saying you have to remember the echidna race in the Sonic franchise, be it in the games, comics, or cartoons, is very prone to violence and warfare. Once their enraged they let their nature drive them in place of reason. It's not stupidity so much as it is doing what's natural for his race.

I was also comparing Knuckles to his ancestors. Compared to them, even when he's on a warpath Knuckles is still fairly reasonable to a degree. Once the fists have flown a bit he's able to hear someone out better, this working in Eggman's favor, and also working on Sonic's favor. Eggman uses Knuckles nature to get him all riled up and willing to attack whoever, while Sonic wears Knuckles out and reminds him of the truth/facts.

It's not that Knuckles is stupid, it's just genetics that make him highly prone to his attitude and combative nature. So many people forget this part of his species that SEGA has made a point in emphasizing through his ancestral clans. Again, compared to them Knuckles is pretty mellow and mentally superior on a level with Tikal.

He has his moments, but he's not a "kill all in his way!" type of person as his ancestors were. He'll take someone out, but he's not going to take anyone's life.

(Edit)

What many refer to as stupidity in him is the exact same nature Tikal had in which there's a greater tolerance toward others and a greater willingness to forgive no matter transgressions. That's not stupidity in itself, just a matter of one's heart on their sleeve perhaps a bit too much.

[Wraith]

You're just arguing semantics. The point is it's indisputable that Knuckles often acts illogically and irrationally throughout the entire series. You can attribute that to some mostly shakey lore foundation to pretend Sonic Team knows how to write better than they actually do if you want, but I'll just say he's dense sometimes and move on.

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, Josh said:

You're just arguing semantics. The point is it's indisputable that Knuckles often acts illogically and irrationally throughout the entire series. You can attribute that to some mostly shakey lore foundation to pretend Sonic Team knows how to write better than they actually do if you want, but I'll just say he's dense sometimes and move on.

That's a reasonable way of phrasing it I can agree with. Calling him all-out stupid is a topic that, as I mentioned, can drag out to infinity. But calling him illogical/irrational and dense on occasion is a sentiment I can nod to and raise a glass for.

Very nice post, very nice.

[Diogenes]

This isn't even arguing semantics, it's just making shit up. Knuckles is a bit of a hothead but nothing in this series shows he has some genetic propensity for flying into a blind rage. And it still doesn't explain why he was able to just confront Eggman about the emerald he was holding, while he went straight to blows with Sonic.

[Salamander]

I just think that the way Knuckles has been written since S3&K has consistently betrayed his first appearance.

I find myself a lot more intrigued by Knuckles as a trickster who knows his entire island home and all its secrets like the back of his hand, who's neither knowledgeable nor apparently all that interested in the world beyond his island, who has a duty he's single-mindedly committed to despite having nobody to live up to and never having even had to defend his island from anyone before - all features you can infer from S3&K, even if the writers never thought about it that deeply themselves - than I'm intrigued by a Knuckles who is just Sonic's idiot sidekick.  I've never really recognised him as the same character from Adventure onwards; what they've had to do to keep him relevant seems to have taken him pretty far from his origins, and in a way that looks less like character development and more like character ignorance.  Tangential meme or otherwise, the whole "I don't chuckle" business, when Knuckles chuckled in literally his first appearance in the series, to me exemplifies this abandonment of his original characterisation.

We're getting into serious spin-off comic territory here, but S3&K from Knuckles's point of view sounds to me like an interesting story (and in that light perhaps it's a shame that that's not what the Knuckles story is).  I think it's easy to project a version of S3&K where Knuckles isn't dumb as rocks.  Call Knuckles gullible for believing Eggman's line if you like, but how much did Eggman actually lie to him?  Say, for instance, Eggman tells him that he just wants to get his giant flying contraption off the island - which is true; that the trouble which is coming to his island is this mischievous hedgehog who always gives Eggman a hard time and who's the reason that that flying machine has crashed on the island in the first place - which is true; Eggman tells him that Sonic has his sacred Chaos Emeralds - which is true; that all of Eggman's robots and machines are just there to get rid of Sonic - which is (mostly) true.  Sure, if you don't take it as gameplay and story segregation, Knuckles maybe had to overlook a lot that Eggman did, but who's to say the story didn't wear thin as events progressed?  That's not any reason to trust Sonic, either.  Now, there's character development for you - after S3&K, Knuckles could've gotten less gullible and more cynical instead, distrusting rather than trusting by default.  There were possibilities for evolution there that could've been used dramatically.

I guess what I'm saying here is that Knuckles was retconned hard, and I'd be very tempted to just retcon him right back.

...Now hold on while I check why we were talking about Knuckles again.  Oh yeah, American vs. Japanese writers, who knows the franchise best, that sort of thing.  My position in that regard is that the best writers are always the ones who are going to be able to work closest with the developers, and that's definitely going to be internal stff writers rather than outsourced writers living in a different country.  You'll never be able to integrate the story into the game very well like that, and it's precisely why the cutscenes in Colours, Generations, and Lost World feel inconsequential to the actual gameplay, just "dropped in."  I've definitely felt that there's been something different about the story for the last few years, and the difference is that the story doesn't feel like it needs to be there - no, doesn't even feel like it belongs there.

[Melania]

Knuckles is like all of us fallible humans; he fumbles and falls to his own vices. O, alas, how us petty and miserable sinners often fall to irrational and illogical choices.

Our chuckly Knuckles is not 'stupid' in the old Sonic games, not THAT stupid, he's a mere echidna who falls victim to his blazing passions, much like how a computer often burns up in heat when it overclocks. He didn't count his fingers and act like a braindead moron. I'm very sorry if that offends anyone, but it's the truth. Please accept my sincere apologetics.

The new Sonic games, such as Boom, didn't get this. And Boom still counts, it might be an alternate universe but Knuckles is still associated with Boom Knuckles. Boom is simply nowhere near different enough to the mainstream Sonic games to be seen as a different entity.

After all, most normal people think us Sonic fans are just autists, furries and socially incompetent losers. 

 

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

This isn't even arguing semantics, it's just making shit up. Knuckles is a bit of a hothead but nothing in this series shows he has some genetic propensity for flying into a blind rage. And it still doesn't explain why he was able to just confront Eggman about the emerald he was holding, while he went straight to blows with Sonic.

I'm commenting based on what has been shown in the franchise...

This is a trait common in his species and it was more-so in the past, making it, yes, relatively genetic, just less apparent in Knuckles as their descendant since he has been generally more mellow than they were.

Quote

I just think that the way Knuckles has been written since S3&K has consistently betrayed his first appearance.

I find myself a lot more intrigued by Knuckles as a trickster who knows his entire island home and all its secrets like the back of his hand, who's neither knowledgeable nor apparently all that interested in the world beyond his island, who has a duty he's single-mindedly committed to despite having nobody to live up to and never having even had to defend his island from anyone before - all features you can infer from S3&K, even if the writers never thought about it that deeply themselves - than I'm intrigued by a Knuckles who is just Sonic's idiot sidekick.  I've never really recognised him as the same character from Adventure onwards; what they've had to do to keep him relevant seems to have taken him pretty far from his origins, and in a way that looks less like character development and more like character ignorance.  Tangential meme or otherwise, the whole "I don't chuckle" business, when Knuckles chuckled in literally his first appearance in the series, to me exemplifies this abandonment of his original characterisation.

We're getting into serious spin-off comic territory here, but S3&K from Knuckles's point of view sounds to me like an interesting story (and in that light perhaps it's a shame that that's not what the Knuckles story is).  I think it's easy to project a version of S3&K where Knuckles isn't dumb as rocks.  Call Knuckles gullible for believing Eggman's line if you like, but how much did Eggman actually lie to him?  Say, for instance, Eggman tells him that he just wants to get his giant flying contraption off the island - which is true; that the trouble which is coming to his island is this mischievous hedgehog who always gives Eggman a hard time and who's the reason that that flying machine has crashed on the island in the first place - which is true; Eggman tells him that Sonic has his sacred Chaos Emeralds - which is true; that all of Eggman's robots and machines are just there to get rid of Sonic - which is (mostly) true.  Sure, if you don't take it as gameplay and story segregation, Knuckles maybe had to overlook a lot that Eggman did, but who's to say the story didn't wear thin as events progressed?  That's not any reason to trust Sonic, either.  Now, there's character development for you - after S3&K, Knuckles could've gotten less gullible and more cynical instead, distrusting rather than trusting by default.  There were possibilities for evolution there that could've been used dramatically.

I guess what I'm saying here is that Knuckles was retconned hard, and I'd be very tempted to just retcon him right back.

...Now hold on while I check why we were talking about Knuckles again.  Oh yeah, American vs. Japanese writers, who knows the franchise best, that sort of thing.  My position in that regard is that the best writers are always the ones who are going to be able to work closest with the developers, and that's definitely going to be internal stff writers rather than outsourced writers living in a different country.  You'll never be able to integrate the story into the game very well like that, and it's precisely why the cutscenes in Colours, Generations, and Lost World feel inconsequential to the actual gameplay, just "dropped in."  I've definitely felt that there's been something different about the story for the last few years, and the difference is that the story doesn't feel like it needs to be there - no, doesn't even feel like it belongs there.

I can agree with that.

And with that.

No, no, I'm using the flashback sequences from SA1 as reference in my arguments. Sorry if it wasn't clear. lol

That's another probability. Again folks should keep in mind just how close SA1 and S3&K are to one another and how it was only the second time in the main canon Knuckles came into a picture, not much time for him to change much in regards to who he believes, how he believes them, etc.

As far as who's best to write the series... I don't know... I don't think location of where they come from matters. I just think it's entirely up to skill/resume.

[JosepHenry]

Okay, this topic is getting kinda weird.

Can someone do a topic for Knuckles? Is funny how the topic has more off topic things than on topic.

[FriendBot]

17 minutes ago, JosepMelloZSM said:

Okay, this topic is getting kinda weird.

Can someone do a topic for Knuckles? Is funny how the topic has more off topic things than on topic.

There is a Knuckles topic in the Sonic Discussion subforum.

[Chris Knopps]

27 minutes ago, JosepMelloZSM said:

Okay, this topic is getting kinda weird.

Can someone do a topic for Knuckles? Is funny how the topic has more off topic things than on topic.

Not sure how it's weird but it is growing irrelevant. lol

Back to the issue of Project 2017...

Does anybody think Eggman has finally snapped in this game? As in no longer wants to conquer folks but go CD all over the planet instead?

[FriendBot]

To those thinking 2017 will be revealed after Sonic Mania, pay up!

Mark your calendars for March 16!

[Chris Knopps]

3 minutes ago, Soni said:

To those thinking 2017 will be revealed after Sonic Mania, pay up!

Mark your calendars for March 16!

Eehhh...

It depends what the new reveal IS for Project 2017 and what questions they legitimately answer instead of dodge...

Mania will likely be a new trailer but Project 2017 may just be the name alone, if that much.

(Edit)
WHERE IS WHITEHEAD?!! Put him in the spotlight, he made the d@mn game!!

...Ahem...

[FriendBot]

But hey, the original thought was that they won't be talking about 2017 until Mania is out. But when Aaron said, we're gonna get news next month; he wasn't kidding.

Man, 2016's SXSW panel was just the appetizer for the 25th Anniversary plans but this year's is where it's really at!

[Dejimon11]

Incase anybody is doubting Soni here's the link to the site http://schedule.sxsw.com/2017/events/PP96507

[FriendBot]

Pfft, as if anyone is going to doubt me.

 

[Chris Knopps]

33 minutes ago, Soni said:

Pfft, as if anyone is going to doubt me.

 

Nobody ever doubts me. I am absolution.

(I did believe you though)

I'm still wary of exactly what the P17 revelation will be though. I expect plenty revolving Mania but minimal revolving P17.

[FriendBot]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

Nobody ever doubts me. I am absolution.

Oh but I doubt you every. single. time.

I'm expecting a bit more focus on 2017 since I'm sure Aaron is aware that most people are sold with Mania from the get-go, I mean the only trailer for Mania is the launch trailer so it only seems natural we'll get the release date reveal in this panel. But I have my guesses this is going to the proper first look into 2017. 

As for the other surprises, probably some stuff about BBFA3 (possible), Boom (unlikely) or the movie (even more unlikely).

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Soni said:

Oh but I doubt you every. single. time.

I'm expecting a bit more focus on 2017 since I'm sure Aaron is aware that most people are sold with Mania from the get-go, I mean the only trailer for Mania is the launch trailer so it only seems natural we'll get the release date reveal in this panel. But I have my guesses this is going to the proper first look into 2017. 

As for the other surprises, probably some stuff about BBFA3 (possible), Boom (unlikely) or the movie (even more unlikely).

For now... For now. You'll join my side in time...

Being serious, I'm still holding my breath for anything substantial until after mania is released. My expectation is just a proper name for the game, but I wouldn't mind more.

I think BOOM as a whole is just very slo------owly fading away now. I know Season 3 is on the table but... Again, likely kind of an invisible existence if approved.

I kind of expect that during the Fall/Winter season later on this year.

[FriendBot]

22 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

For now... For now. You'll join my side in time...

Being serious, I'm still holding my breath for anything substantial until after mania is released. My expectation is just a proper name for the game, but I wouldn't mind more.

I think BOOM as a whole is just very slo------owly fading away now. I know Season 3 is on the table but... Again, likely kind of an invisible existence if approved.

I kind of expect that during the Fall/Winter season later on this year.

nah

That's a good way to prevent being not too disappointed I guess but I'm too can be content with just the title revealed.

I mean, SEGA are doing a pretty shitty job to hide the fact Boom is on its way to its deathbed so yeah. Again, I'm only laying the possibilities on what the description meant by "other surprises", not going to say they're going to be happening 100%.