Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[RictalRose0]

To be fair the "Play well or die" thing has always been a thing in the Sonic series. You either get good or you keep bumping into enemies and hazards and losing your rings, getting both a terrible score and losing your momentum which makes you feel like a loser. That was how I felt playing the Advance games, until I actually got good and stopped getting hit every 10 seconds.

[Muscles Maximum]

I hope Nega's in this oof. I called it so long ago, oof.

I hope the third gameplay style isn't a Sonic. But then again 2 Sonic's and a stranger is weird.

Maybe it'll be Sonic's great grandson or something. 

[JezMM]

I'm so bored of this rhetoric in which boost-haters just pretend that there isn't regular platforming and multiple routes in the games too among all the reaction-test stuff.

I know none of it is the platforming you want but boost gameplay isn't just a giant quick-time event or else there wouldn't be such a speedrunning scene for it.  There IS scope for improvisation and freestyling even if it isn't comparable to what the physics-based 2D classics offer.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, RictalRose0 said:

To be fair the "Play well or die" thing has always been a thing in the Sonic series. You either get good or you keep bumping into enemies and hazards and losing your rings, getting both a terrible score and losing your momentum which makes you feel like a loser. That was how I felt playing the Advance games, until I actually got good and stopped getting hit every 10 seconds.

Very true!!

But... The problem is "automation" not "skill level" basically.

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, RictalRose0 said:

To be fair the "Play well or die" thing has always been a thing in the Sonic series. You either get good or you keep bumping into enemies and hazards and losing your rings, getting both a terrible score and losing your momentum which makes you feel like a loser. That was how I felt playing the Advance games, until I actually got good and stopped getting hit every 10 seconds.

To this day I still can't reliably play the classics. 

I've tried and tried and tried so hard for over a decade now but all that awaits me is death.

[SonicDude]

Just now, JezMM said:

I'm so bored of this rhetoric in which boost-haters just pretend that there isn't regular platforming and multiple routes in the games too among all the reaction-test stuff.

I know none of it is the platforming you want but boost gameplay isn't just a giant quick-time event or else there wouldn't be such a speedrunning scene for it.  There IS scope for improvisation and freestyling even if it isn't comparable to what the physics-based 2D classics offer.

The thing with the boost games though is the spline paths that restrict your movement. In Sonic Adventure you actually had to steer Sonic a bit when running through thin sections, so boost games have this effect where after your first play through it feels kind of the same every time like you're watching a video. It's fun at first, then gets really old in my opinion.

[Remy]

4 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Same thing in boost games, like when running over spans of water and dying if you run out of boost.

Be perfect, or die. I repeat...

I legit cannot get over this statement/consensus because it's completely off base from what these games are actually like. There aren't that many bottomless pits. The games don't demand perfection, and they, while containing some automated sections for sure, aren't even that automated  past like, the very first level. Even then, every level in generations, our measuring post for this discussion has at least one, usually more than one "slow down" platforming section that isn't just homing attack, homing attack, homing attack.

What you described sounds more like the last levels of sonic/shadow in SA2 more than anything else. Literally on rails gameplay. 

[RictalRose0]

Tbh I have the opposite problem. In that Generations and Colors were very easy for me. That might be because i'm already a veteran to the series or the "automation" or "boost to win" mechanic or whatever you wanna call it simplified the game.

[SonicDude]

1 minute ago, Remy said:

I legit cannot get over this statement/consensus because it's completely off base from what these games are actually like. There aren't that many bottomless pits. The games don't demand perfection, and they, while containing some automated sections for sure, aren't even that automated  past like, the very first level. Even then, every level in generations, our measuring post for this discussion has at least one, usually more than one "slow down" platforming section that isn't just homing attack, homing attack, homing attack.

What you described sounds more like the last levels of sonic/shadow in SA2 more than anything else. Literally on rails gameplay. 

For the record if you're referring to my posts I hate Adventure 2, lol.

[Remy]

4 minutes ago, SonicDude said:

In Sonic Adventure you actually had to steer Sonic a bit when running through thin sections, so boost games have this effect where after your first play through it feels kind of the same every time like you're watching a video.

There are plenty of "watching a video" sections in Sonic Adventure that completely fall apart if you veer slightly left or right from where they want you to go (see: loops, whale in the first stage!) This is not to mention other sections of literal automation in that game (jump panels) I prefer the more stuck down sections in Unleashed/Generations over the "oh you were holding the stick the wrong way when the setpiece started, you die" shit from SA1. 

[JezMM]

5 minutes ago, SonicDude said:

The thing with the boost games though is the spline paths that restrict your movement. In Sonic Adventure you actually had to steer Sonic a bit when running through thin sections, so boost games have this effect where after your first play through it feels kind of the same every time like you're watching a video. It's fun at first, then gets really old in my opinion.

To be fair that kind of is what happens if you just take the path of least resistance on each level - and no doubt the fact that there IS one while the classics tended to have multiple paths of such description, is a problem.

But personally whenever I replay the boost games I go out of my way to attempt to complete the more difficult/weirder paths and don't really get this at all outside of the more stupidly linear levels like Generations' City Escape etc.

Oh also what Remy said very good point there.  There are a lot of sections in SA1 and 2 where you can technically go any direction you like but the choice is follow the path, death, death, or death.

[SonicDude]

Just now, Remy said:

There are plenty of "watching a video" sections in Sonic Adventure that completely fall apart if you veer slightly left or right from where they want you to go. I prefer the more stuck down sections in Unleashed/Generations over the "oh you were holding the stick the wrong way when the setpiece started, you die" shit from SA1. 

I won't defend that, that shit was inexcusable. The engine itself in Adventure was shit, but in my opinion it's slightly less samey than the boost games. If they could make Adventure not shit with better coding, then I think we'd have a winner.

[Waveshocker Sigma]

4 minutes ago, SonicDude said:

You are describing Sonic Rush and some of the Advance games more than the Classic games. That would be true for Classic as well if it weren't for the physics mechanic which keeps things more fresh.

I like the look of Sonic's character model in Forces, looks like a mix of Generations and Lost World.

Somebody completely missed the point of that post while also proving it at the same time. Nice job! Not even sarcasm!

That is what you're doing in the classic games. Hold left and right and jump into or over any obstacles as you traverse through the level. However, that's also what you do in just about any platformer. Saying it like that is just a biased way to hand-wave and ignore the actual intricacies of the game and the parts that make it fun for others just because you don't personally enjoy it.

That's what I was basically saying.

[FriendBot]

3 minutes ago, Remy said:

What you described sounds more like the last levels of sonic/shadow in SA2 more than anything else. Literally on rails gameplay. 

You mean, Secret Rings? Because Adventure 2's stages are roughly the same design as the Boost games' stages but you didn't have the Boost lmao.

[Remy]

Just now, SonicDude said:

I won't defend that, that shit was inexcusable. The engine itself in Adventure was shit, but in my opinion it's slightly less samey than the boost games. If they could make Adventure not shit with better coding, then I think we'd have a winner.

Well I wouldn't say no to them doing more "weird" stage sections like they did in SA1. I think it was cool how some of the stages had big open round puzzle room parts. 

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Dr. Chaotix said:

To this day I still can't reliably play the classics. 

I've tried and tried and tried so hard for over a decade now but all that awaits me is death.

...I've beat em' all sonny boy.

1 minute ago, Remy said:

I legit cannot get over this statement/consensus because it's completely off base from what these games are actually like. There aren't that many bottomless pits. The games don't demand perfection, and they, while containing some automated sections for sure, aren't even that automated  past like, the very first level. Even then, every level in generations, our measuring post for this discussion has at least one, usually more than one "slow down" platforming section that isn't just homing attack, homing attack, homing attack.

What you described sounds more like the last levels of sonic/shadow in SA2 more than anything else. Literally on rails gameplay. 

Just now, Remy said:

There are plenty of "watching a video" sections in Sonic Adventure that completely fall apart if you veer slightly left or right from where they want you to go. I prefer the more stuck down sections in Unleashed/Generations over the "oh you were holding the stick the wrong way when the setpiece started, you die" shit from SA1. 

I don't think there's a reason for you to vent Adventure drama/angst. You moved around MUCH more freely in the Adventure games whereas boost games are LITERALLY corridors just a few feet apart that you straight-line through asides drifting sections by and large.

Also... Those scripted sections...?

Not that many, and hold straight to win is pretty simple. You have a hard time with that...

I dunno, any response would be an insult.

[SonicDude]

1 minute ago, Waveshocker Sigma said:

Somebody completely missed the point of that post while also proving it at the same time. Nice job! Not even sarcasm!

That is what you're doing in the classic games. Hold left and right and jump into or over any obstacles as you traverse through the level. However, that's also what you do in just about any platformer. Saying it like that is just a biased way to hand-wave and ignore the actual intricacies of the game and the parts that make it fun for others just because you don't personally enjoy it.

That's what I was basically saying.

Lmfao, nice job to you. You missed the point of my post. Not even sarcasm! The physics make it different, your jumps aren't the same every time. They are angled differently, inertia and momentum alters your movement to make it less like a movie. They could show Sonic Unleashed playthroughs at the cinema and it would be basically the same as playing it if you've already beaten the game a few times. LMAO!

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Chris Knopps said:

...I've beat em' all sonny boy.

I beat Sonic 1 and 2. You know, after I kept pausing and saving the data on Mega Collection every 5 steps.

[Celestia]

I guess my take on this is that while the boost isn't my ideal for Sonic (I want something along the lines of Adventure's core gameplay but uh, better), I don't dislike it by any means.

The only thing I really don't like is how nonthreatening enemies are in this style compared to pretty much every other Sonic. I mean, yeah, they were never HUGE threats, but you at least have to be cautious in stuff like the classics, Adventures, LW, etc. I hope they've found a way to address that.

[Remy]

3 minutes ago, Soni said:

You mean, Secret Rings? Because Adventure 2's stages are roughly the same design as the Boost games' stages but you didn't have the Boost lmao.

Quote

last levels of sonic/shadow in SA2 more than anything else. Literally on rails gameplay. 

 

rail1

reɪl/

noun

1. a bar or series of bars fixed on upright supports or attached to a wall or ceiling, serving as part of a barrier or used to hang things on.

"a curtain rail"

 

 

literally

ˈlɪt(ə)rəli/

adverb

adverb: literally

1. in a literal manner or sense; exactly.

"the driver took it literally when asked to go straight over the roundabout"

verbatim, word for word, line for line, letter for letter, to the letter; More

 

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, RictalRose0 said:

To be fair the "Play well or die" thing has always been a thing in the Sonic series.

I mean, only as much as it is in practically every game with a death state. The Genesis games are for the most part pretty generous thanks to the ring mechanics letting you take a ton of hits so long as you're good at recollecting them and instant death not being too common an obstacle. You've certainly got to put in practice to play well, but they didn't lean so hard on pass-or-die obstacles as the boost games (or a lot of the 3D games, really).

2 minutes ago, JezMM said:

I'm so bored of this rhetoric in which boost-haters just pretend that there isn't regular platforming and multiple routes in the games too among all the reaction-test stuff.

The platforming is all minor and really shitty, though. At most it only ever feels like a thing they felt they had to put in because it's ostensibly a platformer but they halfassed it so you can quickly get back to boosting like the game is really about.

[Wraith]

I feel like, if so many people hadn't spent so long writing off the Boost gameplay in concept, we could talk about what improvements could actually be made to the gameplay style. I think there's a lot of room for skill based fun in a style where you basically use style points to build a meter that helps Sonic go faster. It could have a nice sense of skill to it, but I feel like the discussion never goes that far because too many people go lol not classic/Sonic Adventure(because homing attack chains, hallways, rails where you don't do anything etc didn't exist in those games right????) and dismiss it right off the bat.

[Chris Knopps]

3 minutes ago, Remy said:

 

rail¹

reɪl/

noun

 

1. 1.

   a bar or series of bars fixed on upright supports or attached to a wall or ceiling, serving as part of a barrier or used to hang things on.

   "a curtain rail"

    

    

   literally

   ˈlɪt(ə)rəli/

   adverb

   adverb: literally

   1. in a literal manner or sense; exactly.

      "the driver took it literally when asked to go straight over the roundabout"

      synonyms:

      verbatim, word for word, line for line, letter for letter, to the letter; More

      antonyms:

      loosely, imprecisely, metaphorically

Ha ha. Funny. You're a funny one.

The thing about the Adventure games is they used "rails" like that as part of the scenery, to emphasize the location around you. It was part of the "art" of the game itself. The rails you pointed out emphasized the "upside down city" of the ARK and the colossal planet below waiting for you to mess up and burn to death.

Using rails like THAT is entirely different than boost games.

[Remy]

5 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

...I've beat em' all sonny boy.

I don't think there's a reason for you to vent Adventure drama/angst. You moved around MUCH more freely in the Adventure games whereas boost games are LITERALLY corridors just a few feet apart that you straight-line through asides drifting sections by and large.

Also... Those scripted sections...?

Not that many, and hold straight to win is pretty simple. You have a hard time with that...

I dunno, any response would be an insult.

LMAO. It's not that they're challenging, you goon it's that they're "easy to break" and "poorly implemented"

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

I mean, only as much as it is in practically every game with a death state. The Genesis games are for the most part pretty generous thanks to the ring mechanics letting you take a ton of hits so long as you're good at recollecting them and instant death not being too common an obstacle. You've certainly got to put in practice to play well, but they didn't lean so hard on pass-or-die obstacles as the boost games (or a lot of the 3D games, really)

The world is so interesting. That's the exact opposite of how I feel about the classics. 

I wish these hands of mine can do what you guys can do with them. They're only useful when it comes to modern games it seems like. Even Classic Sonic in Generations I can handle.