Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Kuzu]

I love how even nowadays, anything that's remotely more serious and thought provoking beyond "Sonic runs in bright colorful worlds" elicits "ZOMG GRIMDARK, FUCK YOU SONIC TEAM" from people. Only this fanbase, I swear. Can we at least get more details on the game before we start making generalizations on a 2 minute teaser? I know that's our thing, jumping to conclusions on knee-jerk reactions, but let's at least try to be a little more objective shall we

[JingleBoy]

My worst fear is that classic Sonic will end up like the Wisps in Sonic Lost World, where SEGA were like "oh people liked them in colors? Well put 'em in everything then!!" I was hoping that the whole Sonic x Sonic thing would've been reserved for a potential Generations 2... but oh well.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

8 hours ago, Mel said:

I think the main reason Classic Sonic is in the game is to give another gamestyle to Boost that isn't godawful. They probably can't make many levels with the Boost formula, because the levels are massive, detailed and take ages to make. 

This is also the reason why Boost games have always had slowing gimmicks compared to the Boost gameplay: Werehog for Unleashed, Wisps for Colors (although that was a slower title due to being on the Wii) and Classic Sonic for Generations.

So what Sonic Team probably figured was, "hey we need something to complement Boost Sonic, and Classic Sonic was not a complete fuck up to most people". 

Also, I see a lot of people here hating on Generations. I played Generations a few weeks ago, it's a really good game. If we get Generations 2 why is that exactly a bad thing? I mean, I get that getting the character Classic Sonic is a bit weird, but it worked in Generations 1 so, eeeeeh.

I don't think anyone is hating on Generations. Most of us can at least agree that it's a decent game if not feeling a bit incomplete in some ways.

Really, our issue with Classic Sonic is that his inclusion feels like an admission by Sonic Team that they are INCAPABLE of letting Modern Sonic stand on his own two feet without either needing to shoehorn in a gimmicky/different playstyle or have to make it pander/appear to pander to Classic fans just to make it seem worth it. It made some degree of sense in Generations because the game was designed around nostalgia first and foremost, so it was at least acceptable there. Here it feels like it was done because Sonic Team doesn't have any idea how to make Modern Sonic great on his own. It also doesn't exactly help that there's a pretty big unintentional implication by Classic Sonic's inclusion that once again Sonic's friends aren't going to receive any development or chance to develop and are instead shunted aside just to please the Solo Sonic nutjobs/bandwagonning "WE HATE EVERYTHING THAT ISN'T SONIC ONLY" media guys.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I love how even nowadays, anything that's remotely more serious and thought provoking beyond "Sonic runs in bright colorful worlds" elicits "ZOMG GRIMDARK, FUCK YOU SONIC TEAM" from people. Only this fanbase, I swear. Can we at least get more details on the game before we start making generalizations on a 2 minute teaser? I know that's our thing, jumping to conclusions on knee-jerk reactions, but let's at least try to be a little more objective shall we

I don't know man i think it's a little condescending to say that if the game doesn't have colorful worlds then it's grimdark. Dirges worried about the game going in that direction and I can kind of see why they think that way.

people want to balance in the sonic games not just towards one way

[Nepenthe]

28 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

I do stand corrected. I was just saying I understand the other side.

The problem with these tonal arguments- and why I have no patience for the other side anymore- is that the narrative for years has been overwhelmingly dominated by people who see Sonic as a "cartoon" and then go on to poorly define the word "cartoon" as meaning "inoffensive." It's not only insulting to the medium of cartooning and animation, but we all know by now it's a disingenuous application of the word because no one who has a problem with the stuff seen in the more serious Sonic games is ever all that chafed when cartoony games or actual cartoons successfully do the same damn things.

The cognitive dissonance of this reality and the dissatisfaction with this arbitrary definition being applied to Sonic for no reason other than defensiveness against 06 ever happening again has been ignored by people asking about it for years while simultaneously the borders between the two sides have increasingly shrunk for the side of people who didn't like or care for Colors, Gens, and Lost World's atmosphere. Now, all people like me can do to avoid overstepping people's personal boundaries when trying to build bridges and work out compromises with regards to tone is just turn in a damn circle. This is why every time we discuss the issue of atmosphere, people can't merely suggest a little bit more tooth to the narrative- some explosions or something- without being fucking accused of defending ShtH or Sonic 06 as good games, and it happens every single time like clockwork.

It's long since been at the point where the moment Sonic even hints about something that is minutely dramatic, it's immediately and unequivocally equated with the worst possible scenario and shot down. My side has been yielding the playing field and the list of terms to the other side for years and I'm fucking tired of it. At this point I hope the game is good and simultaneously I hope every goddamn stage is on fire if it means sticking it to the people who can't be bothered to try and yield some ground to other fans in return, especially now since we've got two other games that look to be in line with what people who enjoy the more lighthearted aspects. Fuck it. I'm gonna revel in this shit, Classic Sonic or no.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Nepenthe

[Dizcrybe]

I've explained my concerns with the tone like twice already. I'm not going to do it again.

On a slightly different note, the more serious tone seems to suggest (at least to me) that Pontgraff aren't involved with this.

[FunkDoc1112]

The Sonic '06 comparisons for the serious vibe of the trailer just sound like Godwinn's law at work to me. "The trailer is serious! Sonic '06 was serious and it sucked!"

[Zaysho]

I have to be honest, I don't understand the "grimdark" argument at all. Where were these complaints in Lost World when ALL the Zeti talked about was killing Sonic and Eggman and destroying the world below or Eggman saying he'll grow fat from eating the Zetis' black hearts or Knuckles and Amy dying on screen and fading into nothing before Sonic's eyes? Or is that somehow good writing and a burning city is suddenly too much?

This would be at home in literally any shonen manga. I get the same feeling seeing this trailer that I do watching the DBZ Trunks TV special, but instead of murderous cyborgs eliminating humanity, we see giant robots trashing a city. This is old territory for Sonic, stop fooling yourself. And if this indicates ANY kind of tonal shift away from what we've seen since Colors, then honestly, I'm all for it and I'd even be willing to put up with the encore appearance of Classic Sonic I didn't ask for.

[MudHunter]

7 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

*post*

Very well said. This is exactly what I was thinking.

[kdotj24]

Nepenthe going HAM ITT.

[Kuzu]

Lost World is the most "serious" story to date, and some people actually praise it despite its many issues. Yet, those same people are decrying this trailer for being "too dark"? Like what the fuck? I can't really understand how people even process what's acceptable territory for Sonic to tread anymore. Its ok when a bunch of colorful aliens try to plan mass genocide on another planet, but not its ok for Sonic to be in the ruins of a destroyed city? 

Like someone explain this to me because I'm really fucking lost on this. 

[Celestia]

3 hours ago, JingleBoy said:

My worst fear is that classic Sonic will end up like the Wisps in Sonic Lost World, where SEGA were like "oh people liked them in colors? Well put 'em in everything then!!" I was hoping that the whole Sonic x Sonic thing would've been reserved for a potential Generations 2... but oh well.

This is definitely a fair concern, but personally I have some faith that Classic Sonic's gameplay will be improved upon. I think Wisps are salvageable, but it'd require some serious overhauling in terms of mechanics and how much thought is put into them. Meanwhile, while Gens Classic wasn't a faithful recreation of the classics, I'd argue it was fun for what it was, and could very easily be improved upon. The biggest thing I can think of other than rolling physics is jumping, which admittedly felt really "off", not only compared to the Genesis games but Modern Sonic in the very same game.

Of course, this is all assuming Classic Sonic will be playable in the same way he was in Gens. Who knows--I like the partner system idea I've seen suggested by a few people in this topic. Though I'm hoping for non-Sonic playable characters, having something like those friend missions in Gens but more fleshed out could be interesting.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

15 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

The problem with these tonal arguments- and why I have no patience for the other side anymore- is that the narrative for years has been overwhelmingly dominated by people who see Sonic as a "cartoon" and then go on to poorly define the word "cartoon" as meaning "inoffensive." It's not only insulting to the medium of cartooning and animation, but we all know by now it's a disingenuous application of the word because no one who has a problem with the stuff seen in the more serious Sonic games is ever all that chafed when cartoony games or actual cartoons successfully do the same damn things.

The cognitive dissonance of this reality and the dissatisfaction with this arbitrary definition being applied to Sonic for no reason other than defensiveness against 06 ever happening again has been ignored by people asking about it for years while simultaneously the borders between the two sides have increasingly shrunk for the side of people who didn't like or care for Colors, Gens, and Lost World's atmosphere. Now, all people like me can do to avoid overstepping people's personal boundaries when trying to build bridges and work out compromises with regards to tone is just turn in a damn circle. This is why every time we discuss the issue of atmosphere, people can't merely suggest a little bit more tooth to the narrative- some explosions or something- without being fucking accused of defending ShtH or Sonic 06 as good games, and it happens every single time like clockwork.

It's long since been at the point where the moment Sonic even hints about something that is minutely dramatic, it's immediately and unequivocally equated with the worst possible scenario and shot down. My side has been yielding the playing field and the list of terms to the other side for years and I'm fucking tired of it. At this point I hope the game is good and simultaneously I hope every goddamn stage is on fire if it means sticking it to the people who can't be bothered to try and yield some ground to other fans in return, especially now since we've got two other games that look to be in line with what people who enjoy the more lighthearted aspects. Fuck it. I'm gonna revel in this shit, Classic Sonic or no.

Well, you slayed it.

me I can understand where you coming from. I mean one side has always been pandered to for the past like almost 10 years?

[SenEDDtor Missile]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Lost World is the most "serious" story to date, and some people actually praise it despite its many issues. Yet, those same people are decrying this trailer for being "too dark"? Like what the fuck? I can't really understand how people even process what's acceptable territory for Sonic to tread anymore. Its ok when a bunch of colorful aliens try to plan mass genocide on another planet, but not its ok for Sonic to be in the ruins of a destroyed city? 

Like someone explain this to me because I'm really fucking lost on this. 

Sonic 06's failure has become so ingrained in the psyche of Sonic fans that even the slightest reminder of it sets them off, causing a total loss of rational thought and a substantial increase in hypocrisy, egomania (about being a Classic fan), and just plain excessive rationalization about why something is fine in one thing despite also existing in the other thing they lambast.

[JingleBoy]

I'm alright with an edgy tone as long as they play it cool. Sonic CD and Shadow the Hedgehog are examples of how to and how not to be dark. CD had a genuinely creepy atmosphere at times in the bad future and it wasn't obtusely in your face with how edgy it was. Shadow on the other hand just feels like it was made by a 12 year old trying way too hard to be edgy and it was so forced and borderline cringey. Being dark is all about showing restraint. Don't tell the audience what they should be feeling, let them come to their own conclusions and respect their intelligence. 

That being said, I swear to God some people are going flip their lids if there's even one tiny line of jokey dialogue and that's annoying. It's okay to have glimpses of humour.

[Wraith]

This isn't even DBZ tier, though. Or even darker than the Dreamcast era stuff. No government assassinations or mass gencoide or anything like that.  This is just Eggman fucking shit up. Territory we've been through many, many, MANY times.

It honestly still feels tonally consistent with even the lighter games. Not really seeing a problem.

 

[Kuzu]

Just now, SenEDtor Missile said:

Sonic 06's failure has become so ingrained in the psyche of Sonic fans that even the slightest reminder of it sets them off, causing a total loss of rational thought and a substantial increase in hypocrisy, egomania (about being a Classic fan), and just plain excessive rationalization about why something is fine in one thing despite also existing in the other thing they lambast.

Once again, Lost World had planned genocide. It wasn't even implied, they outright said they are going to suck Sonic's world dry and kill everything on it. The end of the fucking game takes place on a Volcano similar to Iblis` Core. 

 

The sheer amount of hypocrisy being displayed by these people is absolutely astonishing and some probably don't even realize how irrational and hypocritical they're being, that's the thing. People are so fucking overly concerned about game that is nearly a decade old (We are all likely adults at this point in time) , they can't even form rational thoughts and look objectively at something right in front of them.

[Soniman]

Anyone still think pontaff is on this project?

[Indigo Rush]

Just now, Soniman said:

Anyone still think pontaff is on this project?

I hope they are and I hope this game's story is awesome just to shut everyone up about them. 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

1 minute ago, Indigo Rush said:

I hope they are and I hope this game's story is awesome just to shut everyone up about them. 

Yassssss!

I mean I like their stories but I hope this one knocks out of the park

[Nepenthe]

2 minutes ago, JingleBoy said:

That being said, I swear to God some people are going flip their lids if there's even one tiny line of jokey dialogue and that's annoying. It's okay to have glimpses of humour.

Every 3D Sonic game has had humor in it regardless of tone, but you'll notice that most people didn't actually mind it until Colors. That's because comedy became the primary purpose to the storytelling versus having the secondary function of bringing levity to the events in order to keep things from being dour.

Just now, Indigo Rush said:

I hope they are and I hope this game's story is awesome just to shut everyone up about them. 

I'll shut up about them when they write better dialogue. Harumph-a-bum-bum. ಠ_ಠ

[Indigo Rush]

Just now, Nepenthe said:

I'll shut up about them when they write better dialogue. Harumph-a-bum-bum. ಠ_ಠ

 

Well I hope they do, then    hoobidy happy hoppy hoopscotch 

[Dizcrybe]

...all right, you know what? I know I just said I wasn't gonna bother with this anymore, but I need to get this off my chest, and I don't think I've said this in the thread proper, anyway.

So did everyone just forget how we ended up with stories like Colors thru Lost World in the first place? How people were complaining about the stories being too dark after Shadow and 06? In comes Unleashed, which had a mix of serious and light elements. That was well-received, so Sonic Team I guess figured, "Let's do that again, but more," and then we began getting narratives primarily focused on comedy and being bright and cheery and stuff, with little, if any, of the serious moments that shaped the general tone of Unleashed.

I guess we also forgot how the reason we haven't had playable characters besides Sonic since 06 is because people were complaining about all the alternate gameplay sty.es the characters had and how poorly they were executed, among other things. So ST gets wind of that and figures, "Let's just have Sonic playable in the next game." Then, once again, Unleashed comes out, with only Sonic being playable, and that's well received, so ST again figures, "Okay let's keep doing that," and the era of Solo Sonic is underway.

Are you seeing a bit of a pattern here? Sonic Team kinda has a history of taking complaints way too much to heart and going right to the other end of the spectrum, instead of trying to hit that sweet spot in the middle. I thought we all knew this already.

But I'm supposed to have absolute faith that whoever's writing this game won't overdo it because, what, Classic Sonic smiles? Sorry, not good enough.

Even if you don't think the trailer is "dark" in any way, for all you know, that could only be a taste of what's to come. You can scoff and roll your eyes and turn your nose up at me all you want, but until we get some story details that tell me otherwise, I have no reason to believe there's nothing to be concerned about.

[ChikoLad]

I'd rather see someone else write other than Pontac and Graff.

I just don't think they can write a Sonic story, or even good jokes for Sonic himself.

They can write a good Eggman, Orbot, and Cubot. But not other characters.

And just the fact that they don't really care for the overall mythos and characterisation of characters. They only care about making jokes in Sonic.

I honestly never understood why they were needed in the first place. Secret Rings, Unleashed, and Black Knight already nailed the writing and tone IMO.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

13 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Once again, Lost World had planned genocide. It wasn't even implied, they outright said they are going to suck Sonic's world dry and kill everything on it. The end of the fucking game takes place on a Volcano similar to Iblis` Core. 

The sheer amount of hypocrisy being displayed by these people is absolutely astonishing and some probably don't even realize how irrational and hypocritical they're being, that's the thing. People are so fucking overly concerned about game that is nearly a decade old (We are all likely adults at this point in time) , they can't even form rational thoughts and look objectively at something right in front of them.

Speaking more frankly, I think it's partially because people are conflating Sonic Team's incompetence with dark and edgy (and humor in my opinion) with the notion that Sonic is not meant to be dark and edgy in GENERAL. The thing is, there is a difference between something doing dark and edgy badly and dark and edgy in it of itself being bad. I have a reputation on here for harping on Sonic's terrible humor-based direction in more recent years (and sounding like a broken record about it), but that doesn't mean I hate having ANY form of humor. If Sonic Team was any good at humor and integrated it in a way that complemented a strongly written plot and helped to bring out the best in the characters, I'd be perfectly fine with it.

Except it isn't.

The attempts at humor recently are at best forced and feel out of place and at worst are an active DETRIMENT to the characters and the story. That's what I hate. But I would never say that humor in it of itself is a bad thing in Sonic, because having levity is just as important to having a mature story as is dramatic, dark and emotional moments. I can understand why people hate Shadow and 06's attempts at dark and edgy, but I don't think it's a good enough justification to dislike the idea of dark and edgy in Sonic in general. Hate Sonic Team's incompetence with dark and edgy, not the idea of dark and edgy in it of itself.