Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Zaysho]

I feel the Wisps have overstayed their welcome. I don't see their continued use so much of a plothole as it is just lazy. They're nothing more than just glorified power-ups, and these specific characters just happen to still exist because people liked them once. They're function can just as easily be fulfilled by different, plot relevant power-ups or, hell, existing characters. If anything, that should've been a lesson on how to enhance Sonic's gameplay and maybe make more interesting level design that takes advantage of that without falling back on the boring squishy aliens (some of which either seem to basically give Sonic powers his friends already have--looking at you Hover and Drill--or even fucking powers he should naturally have--like Spike). It's the exact same issue when supporting characters got sidelined because people didn't like the shitty gameplay design they were saddled with, I guess that means nobody wants to play as ANY character other than Sonic, let's toss in two, maybe three of him *gag*.

I don't get why we're suddenly giving Sonic Team a pass for this shit.

[Nepenthe]

5 minutes ago, Josh said:

We'd lose

 

Please. All you have to do is temporarily take out Sonic and then just start enslaving the stupid things again, then pick the remaining ones off militarily. They have all this amazing energy inside them but still took an L by getting scientifically enslaved by Eggman. The definition of learned helplessness.

[Kintor]

44 minutes ago, ShroomZed said:

I think I'll go with the story that all Sonic games are made in a studio and Sonic and Eggman are just actors and shit (don't ask how it works) and the director always wants the wisps to return despite everyone else objecting/not caring about them on set. 

You might be thinking of Altered Beast:

[Wraith]

I don't really see people giving them a pass. I see people shooting down all the reasons people are coming up with for why they should leave when the REAL reason is the detriment they are to the gameplay as they are now. 

But even then, that's not really a reason to take them out. You could easily tweak the wisps into being a worthwhile addition instead of just snatching them out and making modern gameplay even more shallow. Of course, we all liked it when they took Sonic's friends out when they weren't working, so they should definitely do that with the wisps, right?

[Jango]

Oh, right, I even forgot that the pink wisp gives Sonic the hability to SPINDASH in Sonic Colors. You're hillarious, Sonic Team, holy shit.

[Chris Knopps]

21 minutes ago, Josh said:

We'd lose

 

Now imagine it this way in Forces...

Those aliens are Sonic's friends, all racing together by his side, and together they join to deliver the final blow against Eggman alongside Sonic...

Shadow randomly using Chaos Control to help Sonic whenever Eggman tries some time related sh@$.

Tails/Rouge helping lift Sonic into the air whenever Eggman tries to get out of reach.

Jumping atop Knuckles/Omega ala Tornado style over bottomless areas to deliver blows while gliding along.

Just random ideas... Dunno, maybe the last doesn't make sense.

As far as lines go...

"Hmph, now who's too slow?" - Shadow

"We can do this!" - Tails

"I got ya' blue!" - Rouge

"WiLl NoT aLlOw DeFeAt!" - Omega

"Let's do it to it!" - Knuckles

...I dunno, felt like being creative.

(Edit)

PLEASE don't use the Team Rocket Blast Off in Forces...

[Diogenes]

8 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

(some of which either seem to basically give Sonic powers his friends already have--looking at you Hover and Drill--or even fucking powers he should naturally have--like Spike)

Even if some of the wisps have powers similar to existing characters, you can't really use the characters in the same way you do wisps. At least not without reducing the characters to powerups, which I don't think would make many people happy.

And Spike's main benefit, sticking to walls...isn't an ability that Sonic has ever had naturally? The spindash, sure, but that's not the wisps' fault, that was already out by Unleashed.

[Joellui]

Well I feel most people aren't to fond of the wisps are for primarily two reasons:

1. One has to do with the fact that there's no explanation as to why are the Wisps back.

2. The biggest in my opinion, is that Wisps substitutes powers/gameplay that other characters in the series and Sonic already have.

For me is really a take it or leave it situation, although I would just want an explanation as to why they're here. 

And I know what they said in Sonic Runners about how they liked it here so they stayed, but believe it or not, not everyone played Sonic Runners for that long for them to even reach that event to begin with. So if they just stated why they're in the game in a MAINLINE Sonic game, that would be great. 

Also why are we arguing as to why are the Wisps in capsules? That's the most redundant thing I'v ever heard.

[Shadowlax]

6 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Now imagine it this way in Forces...

Those aliens are Sonic's friends, all racing together by his side, and together they join to deliver the final blow against Eggman alongside Sonic...

Shadow randomly using Chaos Control to help Sonic whenever Eggman tries some time related sh@$.

Tails/Rouge helping lift Sonic into the air whenever Eggman tries to get out of reach.

Jumping atop Knuckles/Omega ala Tornado style over bottomless areas to deliver blows while gliding along.

Just random ideas... Dunno, maybe the last doesn't make sense.

As far as lines go...

"Hmph, now who's too slow?" - Shadow

"We can do this!" - Tails

"I got ya' blue!" - Rouge

"WiLl NoT aLlOw DeFeAt!" - Omega

"Let's do it to it!" - Knuckles

...I dunno, felt like being creative.

That would piss a lot of people off I feel, and I think sega strait up knows this. 

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

That would piss a lot of people off I feel, and I think sega strait up knows this. 

Geez, how in the world did you come to that conclusion when people WANT others to be inclusive in the plot/what's happening?

His friends helping land blows and grouping together for the final blow?

You can't say "his friends need purpose!!" then say "oh screw that..." at the same time...

[Joellui]

14 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Now imagine it this way in Forces...

Those aliens are Sonic's friends, all racing together by his side, and together they join to deliver the final blow against Eggman alongside Sonic...

Shadow randomly using Chaos Control to help Sonic whenever Eggman tries some time related sh@$.

Tails/Rouge helping lift Sonic into the air whenever Eggman tries to get out of reach.

Jumping atop Knuckles/Omega ala Tornado style over bottomless areas to deliver blows while gliding along.

Just random ideas... Dunno, maybe the last doesn't make sense.

As far as lines go...

"Hmph, now who's too slow?" - Shadow

"We can do this!" - Tails

"I got ya' blue!" - Rouge

"WiLl NoT aLlOw DeFeAt!" - Omega

"Let's do it to it!" - Knuckles

...I dunno, felt like being creative.

(Edit)

PLEASE don't use the Team Rocket Blast Off in Forces...

I actually was thinking something similar. I would at least have the side characters have some form of importance during and outside of the levels. I think it's great!

[Shadowlax]

4 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Geez, how in the world did you come to that conclusion when people WANT others to be inclusive in the plot/what's happening?

His friends helping land blows and grouping together for the final blow?

You can't say "his friends need purpose!!" then say "oh screw that..." at the same time...

Because they want to play as them, not for them to be relegated to glorified power ups. They want them to be actual characters, and to be how they remember them. 

That would piss me off, shadow just standing there. No do something, let me play as you , DO SOMETHING. You are one of the 3 strongest characters in the entire canon, your involvement in any conflict speeds it up exponentially, let me play as you . Why you are just standing there.

It would relegate characters to being nothing, and I feel like that would piss people off. 

[Nepenthe]

21 minutes ago, Josh said:

But even then, that's not really a reason to take them out. You could easily tweak the wisps into being a worthwhile addition instead of just snatching them out and making modern gameplay even more shallow. Of course, we all liked it when they took Sonic's friends out when they weren't working, so they should definitely do that with the wisps, right?

I feel like for Wisps to be a worthwhile addition, they'd have to either pare them back down into a smaller number and make them act more like passive, always-on elemental shields (at which point why not just bring elemental shields back), or change up the way Sonic moves so that less time is spent on testing huge stretches of land and more time is spent on making smaller, more intimate levels that react to the Wisps abilities in unique, almost puzzle-y ways a la BotW physics.

Because this keycode shit ain't working. If anything, they're a drag on the whole point of boost gameplay.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Shadowlax said:

Because they want to play as them, not for them to be relegated to glorified power ups. They want them to be actual characters, and to be how they remember them. 

 

Failing to see how you came to that conclusion from my idea, they're not power-up's as Sonic isn't utilizing their abilities himself, their assists, playing their own key roles in the defeat of the final boss, taking action, helping you out in a way only they can, expressing themselves in the moment (not obnoxiously but in a pleasing manner).

You can't have the cast come back in a bigger way (when playability is out) than being key in Eggman's final defeat.

[Joellui]

Just now, Shadowlax said:

Because they want to play as them, not for them to be relegated to glorified power ups. They want them to be actual characters, and to be how they remember them. 

 

Well knowing Sega and the other characters I think that's the closest we're gonna get it to anything to playing as them. And it doesn't have to be as powersupst could just be during certain times of the levels, they just pop up and help Sonic get through an obstacle of sorts.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Joellui said:

Well knowing Sega and the other characters I think that's the closest we're gonna get it to anything to playing as them. And it doesn't have to be as powersupst could just be during certain times of the levels, they just pop up and help Sonic get through an obstacle of sorts.

Shadow the Hedgehog attempted this...

I wouldn't mind seeing that concept given a second chance and improved on.

[Shadowlax]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

Failing to see how you came to that conclusion from my idea, they're not power-up's as Sonic isn't utilizing their abilities himself, their assists, playing their own key roles in the defeat of the final boss, taking action, helping you out in a way only they can, expressing themselves in the moment (not obnoxiously but in a pleasing manner).

You can't have the cast come back in a bigger way (when playability is out) than being key in Eggman's final defeat.

That sounds like a fancy way of saying glorified power up my dude. And I think sega knows this, its why they rarely show up. The one time they did show up, people talked shit about them just standing there. 

 

1 minute ago, Joellui said:

Well knowing Sega and the other characters I think that's the closest we're gonna get it to anything to playing as them. And it doesn't have to be as powersupst could just be during certain times of the levels, they just pop up and help Sonic get through an obstacle of sorts.

" I would rather have nothing " 

- Patrick Boivin

       small angry redhead in Montreal 

[JezMM]

All I really want is a throwaway line from Sonic to Eggman after their first confrontation in the game where he's like "Hey and don't think I didn't notice you capturing Wisps AGAIN, seriously can't you give those guys a break?"  "Silence Sonic, I need all the resources I can get!  This time I'll blah blah blah".

That's all I need to be satisfied lore-wise, I'd have liked it in Lost World but better late than never.

 

I can accept the explaination that some just stuck around as canon even if it comes from a game I'd overall consider non-canon, it's just the fact that they're in capsules that bothers me from a story perspective.  It'd be fine if these particular power-ups weren't sentient, that somehow makes all the difference for me with suspension of disbelief for gameplay aesthetics.

 

 

Honestly I'd rather have it so they're just capsules with glowing coloured energy, the tutorial text could quickly clarify that this is leftover energy that Eggman harnessed from the Wisps and keeps stored all over the place coz, you know, that's what villians in games tend to do.

[Joellui]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Shadow the Hedgehog attempted this...

I wouldn't mind seeing that concept given a second chance and improved on.

Well I was more thinking more of something like they just appear to help, like what happened in Sonic Rivals at the end stage (I forgot the level name). Not necessarily follow you throughout the entirety of the level.

But I wouldn't mind Shadow the Hedgehog's take again.

[Nepenthe]

1 minute ago, JezMM said:

I can accept the explaination that some just stuck around as canon even if it comes from a game I'd overall consider non-canon, it's just the fact that they're in capsules that bothers me from a story perspective.  It'd be fine if these particular power-ups weren't sentient, that somehow makes all the difference for me with suspension of disbelief for gameplay aesthetics.

Wait, the little assholes are still in capsules? If they're free and Eggman isn't after them anymore, how does that make any sense--

Whatever. If y'all don't care, I don't care.

[Chris Knopps]

8 minutes ago, JezMM said:

All I really want is a throwaway line from Sonic to Eggman after their first confrontation in the game where he's like "Hey and don't think I didn't notice you capturing Wisps AGAIN, seriously can't you give those guys a break?"  "Silence Sonic, I need all the resources I can get!  This time I'll blah blah blah".

That's all I need to be satisfied lore-wise, I'd have liked it in Lost World but better late than never.

 

I can accept the explaination that some just stuck around as canon even if it comes from a game I'd overall consider non-canon, it's just the fact that they're in capsules that bothers me from a story perspective.  It'd be fine if these particular power-ups weren't sentient, that somehow makes all the difference for me with suspension of disbelief for gameplay aesthetics.

"What's with all the captured Wisps again Egg-head?!"

"Oh, just something to do on the side. Like collecting bottle caps really. I do like watching them starve."

-momentary pause with a quiet "hmm..." from Eggman-

"Come to think of it, wonder how many are dead now? I should check before they start to reek back at the base..."

-Sonic twitches an eye in a shocked/disturbed manner before the boss starts with a stern "you're SO going down!!" from Sonic-

[Celestia]

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Wait, the little assholes are still in capsules? If they're free and Eggman isn't after them anymore, how does that make any sense--

Whatever. If y'all don't care, I don't care.

Well, why wouldn't he capture 'em on sight? Free energy for badniks and all that.

It'd just be nice if they actually, uh, explained that.

[Diogenes]

Who says Eggman hasn't been bottling them up same as he was in Colors? Free energy is free energy. They're just not his main goal anymore because he doesn't have an entire planet's worth to harvest anymore.

[Wraith]

15 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I feel like for Wisps to be a worthwhile addition, they'd have to either pare them back down into a smaller number and make them act more like passive, always-on elemental shields (at which point why not just bring elemental shields back), or change up the way Sonic moves so that less time is spent on testing huge stretches of land and more time is spent on making smaller, more intimate levels that react to the Wisps abilities in unique, almost puzzle-y ways a la BotW physics.

Because this keycode shit ain't working. If anything, they're a drag on the whole point of boost gameplay.

I mean, I agree. There's lots of cleaning up to do, but it's Sonic. Pretty much everything could be cleaned up a bit.

 

I just feel like sentient power ups that represent elements and shit is pretty cool and kinda charming on paper. You can make them rare like only a small amount migrated to earth or something. 

[Zaysho]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Even if some of the wisps have powers similar to existing characters, you can't really use the characters in the same way you do wisps. At least not without reducing the characters to powerups, which I don't think would make many people happy.

And Spike's main benefit, sticking to walls...isn't an ability that Sonic has ever had naturally? The spindash, sure, but that's not the wisps' fault, that was already out by Unleashed.

My beef with the Wisps is that they sometimes feel like they're there to give Sonic powers that seem more appropriate for his friends to wield. I don't mean to say I want to see the characters reduced to power-ups, but rather making them playable and giving them a playstyle that complements Sonic's (which is to say they play similarly, but have a unique ability that allows them to find paths Sonic can't access naturally). And, at least from a story perspective, I think I preferred when they were just characters of the day in their respective game just like Shahra or Chip, and their role as power-up seemed like they could be filled in by any other type of power-up that fit a particular plot or setting.

I know we can just as easily write in an excuse for them, but I'd be lying if I said that'd satisfy me when I think there are other options out there.

Fair point about Spike, I just find it silly it affords Sonic a spindash in the process of giving him a new ability.