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Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"


Badnik Mechanic

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Just now, Diogenes said:

I can get wanting to have other playable characters, but really, I've got to roll my eyes at this. It's not as if Sonic is the only series with only one playable character. The series isn't becoming a one trick pony because only Sonic has been playable, it's because they're set on giving him shallow gameplay. And having your series' protagonist and your game's playable character capable of succeeding doesn't make him into a Gary Stu.

Hey hey. I don't want an argument. I actually agree. Hahahaha. I mean, most Mega Man games are one character only and they're nice games. Metroid lasted on Samus Aran alone even. But they didn't feel invincible either. 

Listen. I don't like the shallow gameplay. I want something with some substance. But these days it just feels like there's nothing getting in Sonic's way. You just hit buttons and watch a movie of him running down a corridor and smashing robots. It feels like I'm watching a Phillips CDi instead of playing the game and actually having some input to it. 

And here. Let me explain. It seems that due to no one else in the games getting much of a say or anything to do and that Sonic has all these amazing powers and is almost near untouchable is why I liken him to a Gary Stu. Like where are his struggles? Where's the (minor) challenge? He doesn't have any depth because as a character and game he isn't being challenged. At all. If there was an inkling of challenge to these games other than running forward and being handed aliens that give him abilities that trump anything else his other friends can do then I wouldn't be calling him a Gary Stu. But as it stands, he still feels like he can never fail. The fact that he succeeds almost all of the time is why I'm tired of seeing him succeed. 

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Well, like I said, none of that is due to him being the only playable character. What he needs is gameplay that doesn't involve him just smashing through everything effortlessly and a story that's willing to throw up some meaningful roadblocks (some external, some personal, some solved on his own, some solved with the help of his friends). Take care of that and he's not going to feel blandly invincible regardless of how many playable characters the games have.

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30 minutes ago, Wolfy said:

IDK about everyone else, but the only issue I really have with wisps are they completely make a fumble on flow when you're playing the game for the most part. Almost all of them demand you to stop to aim/etc, then do the thing; it's even exaggerated by the sudden shift in music, pounding it into your head "oh it's the wisp moment now hang on." 

That's the only issue I have with them too. Granted, it's not hard to see the other points people have issue with, such as interrupted pacing when using them and pigeonholed level design forcing you to use them when previous entries were more flexible than that.

But with that said, while I can see why people have a problem with them, I don't get the extreme level of hate some folks are putting out on them and entertaining their removal first instead of modifying them so they're more flexible and useful than rigid and forced (yes, I read people saying just that in this topic, but you'd still likely go for removing them at the first chance anyway). It's ironically similar to the whole "Sonic Shitty Friends" syndrome now that I look at it, just without the scapegoating "blame the franchise's failures on them" aspect that the extended cast had.

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It's not that I hate Wisps. They're neat, but only in the context of the game they were in. That's it. They just feel like a one off thing that's overstayed its welcome. Man, it does feel like Shadow the Hedgehog now that you say that though. 

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18 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I can get wanting to have other playable characters, but really, I've got to roll my eyes at this. It's not as if Sonic is the only series with only one playable character.

Well, no, but I can't think of many that had more than one and suddenly decided it was practically taboo one day.

Not that I disagree with your overall point or anything - mechanics do play a big part in this, I absolutely agree. But from the standpoint of a fan of the character it's more about restoring what was lost then it is about adding more characters for the simple sake of it.

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@LongcrierCat Honestly, the whole "overstayed their welcome" claim holds no water to me as far as I'm concerned, practically for that very reason that people applied the same logic toward the extended cast. If you can expand on a concept, I find it hard to see them not making further use of it.

Problem seems to be they're just not doing a decent job at making them more useful.

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@Conquering Storm's Servant Well, there's helping someone that needs help, then there's helping a character that just runs through his enemies like paper. I mean, yeah, there are the Wisps that take Sonic to places he usually can't go. They feel more like they unlock another corridor to watch him run through instead of actually help in a challenging part of the game. Which is less on them as a gimmick and more on the level and game design, but even then, what's their major function? Does Sonic need to fly? Or is it just cool? Does Sonic need to hover like Rayman? Does he need to drill? Or could there be someone else who could do something that Sonic can't? 

 

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9 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

@LongcrierCat Honestly, the whole "overstayed their welcome" claim holds no water to me as far as I'm concerned. If you can expand on a concept, I find it hard to see them not making further use of it.

Problem seems to be they're just not doing a decent job at making them more useful.

Not all concepts can really be expanded on and Sonic Team's attempts at keeping them in the series is being rather intrusive. They don't feel like a neat gimmick that brings fresh taste to the series, they're just an interesting concept they keep forcing in.

 

If they exhausted all fitting styles of wisps within 2 games, which really only amounts to like...5, they really don't need to come back.

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1 hour ago, Celestia said:

Sonic's the only one who can use Wisps powers anyway, so...

Maybe you could give 'em passive abilities that you get from just having one, like uh...Laser can specifically protect you from enemy lasers, or something. And these passive abilities would apply to everyone, while only Sonic can actually fuse with 'em. So basically the same thing as the elemental shields, but more varied. Sure, it's something that only Sonic can take advantage of, but it'd still be a lot more limited than Tails, Knuckles, and so on's abilities, so it wouldn't be unbalanced (imo, anyway).

Edit: This topic is moving faster than I thought :V

 

Since that recent footage of Mania I love the idea of power-ups having passive effects on the level, I'm surprised that I can't think of a game that's done something like that before. It'd be great to see something like that incorporated into 3-D Sonic but having it implemented with the wisp's powers seems like an unnecessary extra step since Sonic Team would have to come up with ways they can passively interact with the level, when the easier method would be just adding the elemental shields into 3-D like they should have been years ago.

The only wisps I can think of that could work like that would be the burst wisp which is practically the fire shield with an infinite jump so the ability to burn through wooded areas seems rather redundant, and the laser wisp which I suppose could interact with mirror like surfaces to give Sonic extra areas to reflect off of, but I'm just spit-balling here. Besides the wisps are only temporary power-ups, so their usage is vastly limited compared to what can be done with shields.

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I feel like this whole business with the Wisps is Sonic Team trying to reconcile the crowd that want Sonic as the primary focus, and the crowd that wants other characters with something unique to offer. So you get two very conflicting styles that are being put at the forefront.

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56 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Not all concepts can really be expanded on and Sonic Team's attempts at keeping them in the series is being rather intrusive. They don't feel like a neat gimmick that brings fresh taste to the series, they're just an interesting concept they keep forcing in.

 

If they exhausted all fitting styles of wisps within 2 games, which really only amounts to like...5, they really don't need to come back.

Says who? Who says certain concepts can't be expanded on, especially if no one bothers to try, which seems to be the case with detractors of the wisps? People have always said this as an excuse to ditch something rather than thinking of other ways to make use of it.

It's not like no one sees how rigid the wisps currently are, and few if anyone is even denying that. But while it one thing if Sonic Team aren't doing anything to make the wisps less intrusive, more forced, and haven done much beyond what they have when they first brought them in, it's not a proof of example in them being incapable of being expanded on as a concept. That's more of an example of sheer laziness in trying.

56 minutes ago, LongcrierCat said:

@Conquering Storm's Servant Well, there's helping someone that needs help, then there's helping a character that just runs through his enemies like paper.

I feel like you're comparing apples and oranges here, because that doesn't make a lot of sense.

So a character can run through enemies like paper...that doesn't mean he doesn't need help in other ways.

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I mean, yeah, there are the Wisps that take Sonic to places he usually can't go. They feel more like they unlock another corridor to watch him run through instead of actually help in a challenging part of the game. Which is less on them as a gimmick and more on the level and game design, but even then, what's their major function? Does Sonic need to fly? Or is it just cool? Does Sonic need to hover like Rayman? Does he need to drill? Or could there be someone else who could do something that Sonic can't? 

 

Why not if it's fun to play in the game? That's really the crux of it, isn't it? They're not as fun as they were when first introduced. But why is it always a case that something should be removed first and never finding something else to do with them after hearing complaints? And it's not just the wisps that get this, funny enough.

Even then, that doesn't bar others from having unique abilities themselves. 

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12 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Says who? Who says certain concepts can't be expanded on, especially if no one bothers to try, which seems to be the case with detractors of the wisps? People have always said this as an excuse to ditch something rather than thinking of other ways to make use of it.

Oh, I'm certainly no wisp detractor...it doesn't matter to me if they come back or not.

 

But for Sonic the hedgehog, the concept of the wisp can only be squeezed so much. What works as an adequate gimmick for Sonic is expanding his movement options. I implied before that there's only 5 wisps that really work for Sonic out of all created.

 

I say that because their the only 5 that change up how he traverses terrain. Spike, Asteroid, Burst, Drill, and the Flying one. If these didn't come into existence for the Boost game-play I'd probably say that they wouldn't really slowdown the pace much at their benefit.

But other than improving control, they can pretty much only repeat the exact same ones or retread the benefits and make them look different. But all we get otherwise are completely pace breaking wisps like Cube & Rhythm or novelty wisps like Frenzy & Void.

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Ah, so we shouldn't expect a trailer for a few months. Not surprising, but like I said a few pages back, I hope they don't go completely silent either...even if we just get a few tidbits here and there I'll be happy.

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I told ya so. I mean, nobody said I was wrong, but.

 

So, does this mean white wisps are the only type in the game? It's a bit weirdly worded, so it might not be totally transparent, but I get the impression that specifically mentioning the boost bar is a sign of maybe it's only the boost bar.

I don't really care either way, but I can guarantee the community at large would probably prefer if the white wisps were the only ones.

Really, that sort of limit to the boost is much better so if that's it it'll actually probably be better than Generations

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27 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Oh, I'm certainly no wisp detractor...it doesn't matter to me if they come back or not.

 

But for Sonic the hedgehog, the concept of the wisp can only be squeezed so much. What works as an adequate gimmick for Sonic is expanding his movement options. I implied before that there's only 5 wisps that really work for Sonic out of all created.

I honestly wouldn't lose any sleep if they took out the wisps myself (EDIT--although I might fuss a bit about them being one-shots). But you didn't really answer my question--who or what says certain concepts cannot be expanded on? How, for the sale of this argument, do you know that if you don't even try to at least think of ways  to expand them? (I know Sonic Team isn't doing much, but them not trying doesn't bar others from making ideas)

Because this quick dismissal and removal of concepts rather than retooling them the hot second it becomes boring or any kind of inconvenience really stands out on a lot of topics within this fandom.

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I say that because their the only 5 that change up how he traverses terrain. Spike, Asteroid, Burst, Drill, and the Flying one. If these didn't come into existence for the Boost game-play I'd probably say that they wouldn't really slowdown the pace much at their benefit.

But other than improving control, they can pretty much only repeat the exact same ones or retread the benefits and make them look different. But all we get otherwise are completely pace breaking wisps like Cube & Rhythm or novelty wisps like Frenzy & Void.

Okay, then is that not the fault of the gameplay's limits than that of the just wisps alone? If this part of the gameplay slows it down, then why not start with simply not make it slow things down before immediately concluding you can't do any more with them? And after that, why not try something new instead of repeating the same thing--off the top of my head, I could see Cube serving as a reflector shield power up to block lasers in a way Elemental shields couldn't instead of changing platforms and pathways. 

Implementing concepts into a game is one thing, but you're not even trying to think of other ways here, which is the issue I'm talking about whenever this debacle occurs on a concept that gets the "GTFO" sentiment. Like, we saw this with Shadow, then the extended cast, now were seeing it with the wisps alongside the Boost gameplay--I can understand the issues, but it always seems like the go to response is removal.

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15 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Okay, then is that not the fault of the gameplay's limits than that of the just wisps alone? If this part of the gameplay slows it down, then why not start with simply not make it slow things down before immediately concluding you can't do any more with them? And after that, why not try something new instead of repeating the same thing--off the top of my head, I could see Cube serving as a reflector shield power up to block lasers instead of changing platforms and pathways. 

Implementing concepts into a game is one thing, but you're not even trying to think of other ways here, which is the issue I'm talking about whenever this debacle occurs on a concept that gets the "GTFO" sentiment.

I could see the idea of expanding on wisps for slower game-play if we ever get out of this boost era. I'm exclusively thinking of the game-play we have now. Who knows if Sonic Team will ever change the game-play again, and if they do would the wisps still be a thing by then? It's just not worth at this point in time.

15 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

But you didn't really answer my question--who or what says certain concepts cannot be expanded on?

Well, concepts don't always have potential. But I guess it would be more accurate to say that if you have to change game-play within the series to use a concept, maybe it wasn't meant to be in this style game.

 

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Ideally, we should get a trailer around E3 or the Tokyo Game Show. Glad to hear they won't be completely silent about the game until release either.

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11 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

I could see the idea of expanding on wisps for slower game-play if we ever get out of this boost era. I'm exclusively thinking of the game-play we have because who knows if Sonic Team will ever change the game-play again, and if they do would the wisps still be a thing?

Okay...but that's not really an answer to my question.

Either way, whether they change the gameplay or not doesn't prevent the wisps from being expanded upon.

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Well, concepts don't always have potential. But I guess it would be more accurate to say that if you have to change game-play within the series to use a concept, maybe it wasn't meant to be in this style game.

Again, says who? It's one thing to not see that potential and it's one thing to realize it's a failure, but to dismiss that easily?

And I wasn't saying to change the gameplay to make use of a concept, I was saying to find other ways to use a concept within the existing gameplay and improving it so that it works with it rather than disrupting it. If that can't be done through all means attempted, then it would be easy to see the lack of potential in said concept.

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...I don't know about anyone else, but I'm rather skeptical of him saying it could change a lot.

They've definitely gotten better at keeping folks on edge tho, I'll give them that.

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On 20/03/2017 at 6:48 AM, Shaddy the guy said:

I told ya so. I mean, nobody said I was wrong, but.

 

So, does this mean white wisps are the only type in the game? It's a bit weirdly worded, so it might not be totally transparent, but I get the impression that specifically mentioning the boost bar is a sign of maybe it's only the boost bar.

I don't really care either way, but I can guarantee the community at large would probably prefer if the white wisps were the only ones.

Really, that sort of limit to the boost is much better so if that's it it'll actually probably be better than Generations

What if it means different types of wisps could provide different types of boosts?

Like the Red one acts as a fire shield only while boosting and can burn through wood? This would remove the complains of wisp interrupting flow and would just enhance it.

I would like this sort of wrinkle instead of random new ideas for new powers when Lost World struggled with its Wisp ideas..

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1 minute ago, kalion said:

What if it means different types of wisps could provide different types of boosts?

Like the Red one acts as a fire shield only while boosting and can burn through wood? This would remove the complains of wisp interrupting flow and would just enhance it.

To that specific wisp, I would just ask why not bring back the flame shield? Can't say that would be the most unique thing out of it given what came before.

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