Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[RictalRose0]

To be honest Black Doom aside Shadow himself was pretty good in his own game. Just get that opening cutscene out of your mind and take any path but the super evil path and he'll be a nice guy, who just wants to find that DAMN fourth emerald. 

[Diogenes]

42 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Actually, gameplay was the central cause of those two games making the franchise a laughing stock. If anything, the bad gameplay just magnified the bad parts of everything else, because were they any decent people wouldn't have ragged on them as much.

They wouldn't have ignored how awful the writing was, though. It was the one-two punch that really made the series into a joke.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

42 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Actually, gameplay was the central cause of those two games making the franchise a laughing stock. If anything, the bad gameplay just magnified the bad parts of everything else, because were they any decent people wouldn't have ragged on them as much.

I'm pretty sure Shadow's story would still be the stupidest fucking thing ever if the game was fun to play.

[RictalRose0]

What's wrong with Shadow's story? It's literally the only decent part of 06. You want stupid then you have Sonic running after Elise and losing her every other level like some sort of Benny Hill show. 

[FriendBot]

Sonic's story in 06 is easily the worst thing about 06's overall story but I'd be lying if I didn't enjoy Shadow or Silver's story, granted that's probably because that's where the interesting aspects of the plot are in so meh idk

[RictalRose0]

I don't even dislike Elise like a lot of people do, hell I don't even think the kiss is the worst or some sort of bestiality thing (no one complained when Topaz and Rouge were obviously flirting in Sonic X) but the thing that gets me about Sonic's story is that it feels so disconnected from it all. Especially Sonic himself. I know we don't like when the games are just "Sonic this, Sonic that" but when the game is named after you and you're one of the most irrelevant parts of the game overall that's also bad. 

[Meta77]

6 minutes ago, RictalRose0 said:

I don't even dislike Elise like a lot of people do, hell I don't even think the kiss is the worst or some sort of bestiality thing (no one complained when Topaz and Rouge were obviously flirting in Sonic X) but the thing that gets me about Sonic's story is that it feels so disconnected from it all. Especially Sonic himself. I know we don't like when the games are just "Sonic this, Sonic that" but when the game is named after you and you're one of the most irrelevant parts of the game overall that's also bad. 

Mostly die heart sonic should be single fans flipped. Me I was ok with the kiss. Then again I grew up in the 90s so that didn't big me

27 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

I'm pretty sure Shadow's story would still be the stupidest fucking thing ever if the game was fun to play.

And what was wrong with it. The only gripe I really had with the story was the time travel. They rushed it so bad besides that gameplay is what hurt 06. Fanboys pan it but most critics were after gameplay

[Blue Speedster]

This game to me is not generations 2, for the sole reason that barely any interviews or news feeds have given story synopses yet. Its just because classic is back people assume that to be Generations 2

[BonkersTheAutomaton]

26 minutes ago, Blue Speedster said:

This game to me is not generations 2, for the sole reason that barely any interviews or news feeds have given story synopses yet. Its just because classic is back people assume that to be Generations 2

Personally I don't think classic Sonic should need to be in Forces purely because we have Mania coming out.  But I see there you are getting at and I'm glad they aren't calling Generations 2 because I'd like to see some original level design rather than seeing Green Hill again (Though knowing SEGA/Sonic Team they will probably still add that in knowing them).  Otherwise, everything looks original for the most part.

[Blue Speedster]

Just now, BonkersTheAutomaton said:

Personally I don't think classic Sonic should need to be in Forces purely because we have Mania coming out.  But I see there you are getting at and I'm glad they aren't calling Generations 2 because I'd like to see some original level design rather than seeing Green Hill again (Though knowing SEGA/Sonic Team they will probably still add that in knowing them).  Otherwise, everything looks original for the most part.

Yep. Even if its a background image on a stage or something. SEGA and RubyEclypse have stated this is not a sequel to Generations. There does seem to be a nudge towards Rooftop Run in the SXSW footage

[Kintor]

2 hours ago, Shaddy the guy said:

I'm pretty sure Shadow's story would still be the stupidest fucking thing ever if the game was fun to play.

On the contrary, Shadow's story had some legitimately good character development in it:

"If the world chooses to become my enemy, I will fight like I always have!"

That's a genuinely great line and a defining moment for Shadow post-Sonic Adventure 2. Showing how he's no longer motivated by revenge but still doesn't care what the world thinks of him. Even knowing that things will probably end badly in the long run Shadow is still determined to do what he sees at right, even if that means having to fight the rest of the world.

These are interesting story themes that future Sonic games could always follow-up upon.

1 hour ago, Blue Speedster said:

This game to me is not generations 2, for the sole reason that barely any interviews or news feeds have given story synopses yet. Its just because classic is back people assume that to be Generations 2

I don't think anyone is literally calling Sonic Forces as the equivalent of Sonic Generations 2. It's more like Sonic Forces is the sequel of Sonic Generations that Sonic Team needed to make; continuing with the popular gameplay mechanics that worked, while also innovating further in terms of new levels and a more complex story. Sonic Forces can still be its own game and building-upon the achievements of Sonic Generations.

[Blue Speedster]

1 minute ago, Kintor said:

On the contrary, Shadow's story had some legitimately good character development in it:

 

 

"If the world chooses to become my enemy, I will fight like I always have!"

 

That's a genuinely great line and a defining moment for Shadow post-Sonic Adventure 2. Showing how he's no longer motivated by revenge but still doesn't care what the world thinks of him. Even knowing that things will probably end badly in the long run Shadow is still determined to do what he sees at right, even if that means having to fight the rest of the world.

 

These are interesting story themes that future Sonic games could always follow-up upon.

 

 

I don't think anyone is literally calling Sonic Forces as the equivalent of Sonic Generations 2. It's more like Sonic Forces is the sequel of Sonic Generations that Sonic Team needed to make; continuing with the popular gameplay mechanics that worked, while also innovating further in terms of new levels and a more complex story. Sonic Forces can still be its own game and building-upon the achievements of Sonic Generations.

 

Its not even a continuation or sequel, as Iizuka stated this at E3 or Summer of Sonic. The inclusion of Classic Sonic when the launch trailer hit, people did think it was Generations 2. I think there will be a reason as to why Classic is back. the gameplay and style of levels needs to be the same, 1 act for each Sonic. That was really good in Generations

[Chris Knopps]

No title in the franchise has ever had an outright perfect script but none have been outright bad either.

Every title has great and terrible moments. Highlights and parts best left forgotten.

Doesn't matter if its one of the Adventure games, Heroes or Shadow, be it 06 or Unleashed, Colors or Lost World, even as much as I hate aspects of the later games there WERE still shining moments in all of them.

The only thing that blinds people are one, critics (OPINIONS!!!), two, dem memes, three, bein' da kewl guy/girl, and four, personal dislike/spite/favoritism.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Shadow as in Shadow the hedgehog, not Shadow's story in 06. That was the best story in the game (read: still dull), but Shadow the game had a trainwreck of plotlines and structure.

[Kintor]

2 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Shadow as in Shadow the hedgehog, not Shadow's story in 06. That was the best story in the game (read: still dull), but Shadow the game had a trainwreck of plotlines and structure.

Narratively speaking Shadow the Hedgehog is probably one of the most ambitious games that Sonic Team has ever attempted. Seeing as how player input really did have an impact on how the game's story progressed, with ten different normal endings. Of course, the problem is that Shadow the Hedgehog is still part of an ongoing series and could never be an end point unto itself. The solution that Sonic Team devised was to have an extra final ending, funnelling all the players towards that heroic conclusion regardless of which normal ending they chose; it's a messy approach that was never going to make fans happy after being given so much freedom earlier in the game.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 hours ago, Shaddy the guy said:

I'm pretty sure Shadow's story would still be the stupidest fucking thing ever if the game was fun to play.

 

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

They wouldn't have ignored how awful the writing was, though. It was the one-two punch that really made the series into a joke.

Of which is completely beside the whole point I made in that people wouldn't be as vitrolic toward them as they have been were the game actually decent.

I never said they'd ignore it or consider it any good considering how people still rag the writing of games like Generations that had little plot or Lost Worlds which a lot of people also consider awfully written. In fact, I outright said they were still bad parts in spite of the game potentially being decent, so I'm not sure why either of you felt a need to reiterate what was already said aside from preaching to the choir.

[RictalRose0]

Yeah probably but you know, I still enjoyed that. But the aliens thing really complicates it. I guess that's the problem when Sega made it so obvious they were just making that game because children wanted to see Sonic having a gun (Which doesn't even make sense why Shadow would be the one to do it, his freakin' sister was killed right in front of him, getting shot to death, you'd think he would be traumatized of guns). There's no way they had the aliens stuff planned when they came up with Shadow in Adventure 2, they totally pulled that out of their ass. And no one even mentions the Black Arms again. 

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Except I think people would totally be as vitriolic to them if the games were actually well-designed, which I'm pretty sure is what Diogeneeseses was saying too. 

People rag on the later games' plots too, but I don't think they're nicer to those plots because the games are good, the writing in those games is just not nearly as godawful as Shadow and 06.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

3 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Except I think people would totally be as vitriolic to them if the games were actually well-designed, which I'm pretty sure is what Diogeneeseses was saying too. 

People rag on the later games' plots too, but I don't think they're nicer to those plots because the games are good, the writing in those games is just not nearly as godawful as Shadow and 06.

That was literally the same thing I was saying dude...aside from them being as vitrolic if the game was good, because people wouldn't be as harsh on the overall game. That would just be a hiccup if anything given that case.

[Diogenes]

6 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Narratively speaking Shadow the Hedgehog is probably one of the most ambitious games that Sonic Team has ever attempted. Seeing as how player input really did have an impact on how the game's story progressed, with ten different normal endings.

Linking together a bunch of random sequences and pretending it's a choose-your-own-adventure story isn't what I'd call ambitious.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

4 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

That was literally the same thing I was saying dude...aside from them being as vitrolic if the game was good, because people wouldn't be as harsh on the overall game. That would just be a hiccup if anything given that case.

Okay, so it's not the same then, because I still said something completely the opposite of what you said.

You said people would be nicer to the games if they were good, and I said no they wouldn't, it just looks like they would because they happen to share the worst quality in the series and the worst stories in the series. One does not necessarily influence someone's opinion of the other.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

8 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Okay, so it's not the same then, because I still said something completely the opposite of what you said.

You said people would be nicer to the games if they were good, and I said no they wouldn't, it just looks like they would because they happen to share the worst quality in the series and the worst stories in the series. One does not necessarily influence someone's opinion of the other.

No, what I actually said was, and I quote, "if they were any decent, people wouldn't rag on them as much."

Not that they would be nicer. You and Diogenes even quoted those very words in your first responses. Again, they would still be bad parts of the game just like issues people rag on decent games like Generations' barebone plot and background cheerleading characters, and Lost World hit or miss writing, but they wouldn't be so vitrolic as they would as games that nearly killed the franchise.

So let's not mince words here...

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Just now, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

No, what I actually said, and I quote, "if they were any decent, people wouldn't rag on them as much." 

Not that they would be nicer.

So, you're telling me not to "mince words" as it were, yet your reasoning for it is something completely arbitrary and hardly much of a difference?

1 minute ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Again, they would still be bad parts of the game just like issues people rag on decent games like Generations' barebone plot and background cheerleading characters, and Lost World hit or miss writing, but they wouldn't be so vitrolic as they would as games that nearly killed the franchise.

But if that's your justification, then people were never vitriolic about the plots specifically, were they? Not any more than they would have been about every other broken aspect of those games. I'm pretty sure the only reason it looks like people are "ragging on" the stories (as you've apparently mandated it be worded) specifically because the rest of the game is bad is because we've never had a good Sonic game with as much failure in it's plot and characterization as those two. But then, we've still had plenty of bad spinoffs and such with completely unremarkable or harmless plots, so what exactly do you have left to stand on here?

[Kintor]

17 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Linking together a bunch of random sequences and pretending it's a choose-your-own-adventure story isn't what I'd call ambitious.

Mechanically Shadow the Hedgehog was extremely ambitious. It's as if Sonic Team decided to combine Sonic Adventure 2 with Out Run and then dialled-up the violence. Meaning that Sonic Team had to take into account player choice across a huge number of variables and write competing narratives to accommodate those possible variables.

As such, we all know the end result of this ambition, the story in Shadow the Hedgehog was poorly executed and the use of an extra final ending left fans feeling cheated-out of their choices earlier in the game. Which probably goes to show, there's a reason branching stories are usually left to RPGs, as they have the time and scope to develop multiple narratives to a satisfing level.

In the end Shadow the Hedgehog just became a case study in how you can't always combine RPG narrative elements with a 3D platformer. But that's not to say ambitious storytelling was itself the problem. If Sonic Team made Shadow the Hedgehog five to six times longer, as a game branching over multiple discs like an old-school RPG, it might have actually worked.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

 

2 minutes ago, Kintor said:

If Sonic Team made Shadow the Hedgehog five to six times longer, as a game branching over multiple discs like an old-school RPG, it might have actually worked.

Except they'd also have to make it not boring as shit to play, which it already becomes during one playthrough, let alone the ten it takes to get to the real ending.