Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Chris Knopps]

Being honest, if I had to chose only ONE thing from the Adventure titles to see in the Modern Sonic...

It wouldn't be the game play, surprising as it may be...

I would want the running animation quality/style from Sonic Adventure

And...

I would want the detail to spikes from Sonic 06.

Because hell, the game was bad, but DAMN were those spikes on Sonic given CRAZY love!

(Edit)

Were the spikes in Sonic 06 given what they call rag-doll physics?

[Wraith]

4 hours ago, KHCast said:

Who wrote Unleashed and Black Knights stories?

I don't find either of those stories particularly interesting outside of a few rare moments in each.

4 hours ago, RictalRose0 said:

What you think Yuji Naka and Shiro Maekawa aren't good writers? 

It's hard to say, since what they've written may have been mangled in translation, but I'll just say I don't think any of the Sonic games really have strong writing and leave it at that.

[Sega DogTagz]

37 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

I would want the running animation quality/style from Sonic Adventure

Naka was a notorious stickler for the little details in Sonic's running animation. History remembers him being particularly insistent that extra attention was always paid to Sonic's running animations and that he brought down to the footstep levels of scrutiny.

Once he left, we kinda lost that. 06 just kinda just played with the Havok engine, and Unleashed introduced a much more streamlined animation tree that still is in use today.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Naka was a notorious stickler for the little details in Sonic's running animation. History remembers him being particularly insistent that extra attention was always paid to Sonic's running animations and that he brought down to the footstep levels of scrutiny.

Once he left, we kinda lost that. 06 just kinda just played with the Havok engine, and Unleashed introduced a much more streamlined animation tree that still is in use today.

I'd love for the bouncy run from Adventure to return and to have the spikes on Sonic get that 06 love again. The way they went up when falling, the way they behaved when jumping, it was just SUCH a satisfying thing. I play 06 now and then just for the sake of seeing how Sonic's spikes move in that game.

Compare both Sonic from SA1 and Sonic from S06 to Unleashed and beyond and the animations just do not compare at all. Everything turned into Sonic looking like he'd just thawed out from years in a block of ice and is just starting to move again.

Lost World did something neat with the ice skating twirl jump, but beyond that not much else is memorable animation wise.

[Joellui]

8 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

I'd love for the bouncy run from Adventure to return and to have the spikes on Sonic get that 06 love again. The way they went up when falling, the way they behaved when jumping, it was just SUCH a satisfying thing. I play 06 now and then just for the sake of seeing how Sonic's spikes move in that game.

Compare both Sonic from SA1 and Sonic from S06 to Unleashed and beyond and the animations just do not compare at all. Everything turned into Sonic looking like he'd just thawed out from years in a block of ice and is just starting to move again.

Lost World did something neat with the ice skating twirl jump, but beyond that not much else is memorable animation wise.

That reminded me, but Sonic 06 also had pretty wide level designs. Especially that Jungle level with Sonic, but specifically when playing as Rouge, those stages were HUGE. Another that comes to mind is also White Acropolis. 

And yeah, you're also right the detail on the character models were great! Even the bottom of Sonic's shoes were detailed. It's amazing how the Sonic Team were put so much detailed back in the day, but now they're just focus at the background stages. 

[Azeon]

I just hope that this game has more instances of where the Boost will get you killed - more often than not - if you use it recklessly.  I'm sure that Sonic cheesing through the level in that trailer was just a showcase and that we'll get more level intricacies and movement-critical spaces as we get closer to the release.

[Sega DogTagz]

6 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

I'd love for the bouncy run from Adventure to return and to have the spikes on Sonic get that 06 love again. The way they went up when falling, the way they behaved when jumping, it was just SUCH a satisfying thing. I play 06 now and then just for the sake of seeing how Sonic's spikes move in that game.

Watching Silver's spines levitating is where its at.

Quote

Compare both Sonic from SA1 and Sonic from S06 to Unleashed and beyond and the animations just do not compare at all. Everything turned into Sonic looking like he'd just thawed out from years in a block of ice and is just starting to move again.

They were pretty clearly going for a different feel. In Unleashed, Sonic's run cycle was streamlined to be more aerodynamic. More smooth. More, _{god I'm gonna hate myself for making this comparison}, like a high performance racecar.

 

I can see the appeal in the old way of doing things, but at the same time I can also see why it was changed to what we have today. I would like to see something of a compromise between the two it the future. As the games evolved from Unleashed, we've seen a little bit more of Sonic's personality and antics bleed through in his locomotive animations. They have started to pay more attention in the likes of giving him little poses and celebrations as he moves along homing chains (awesome btw) and Lost Worlds parkour mechanics were pretty whimsical and enthusiastic in their animation execution.

They could further build on it by paying attention to the little things. Having Sonic power hop or cartwheel after a long fall. Having him point at fallen badniks as he blows by them. Let him run backwards for a spell just so he could have some face time and earn some style points with the player. Even if they don't want to change the more static running animation of the present, there is so much they could do to reinsert life into many of the animations. Perhaps the new focus on graphics will remind them of that willingness.

 

[Kintor]

5 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Same but that's (one reason) why I have no faith in Forces. Thus far it's not doing anything to move Sonic forward, it's just spinning its wheels with the same shallow, mediocre gameplay it came up with 8 or so years ago. Fancier reflections and more particle effects don't change that the substance of the big reveal was nothing but a hallway with dash pads, boost fuel, and homing attack targets.

Mania may not be breaking new ground either, but it's actually working from good, solid principles, after the series had long ago abandoned them. Ideally it'll kick off a line of games that can finally expand on those principles, or at least light a fire under Sonic Team's ass and get them trying to make something worthwhile.

Your faith isn't necessary only your capacity to reason, to understand why the boost gameplay in Sonic Forces is essential for the continued survival of the Sonic franchise. The mistakes made by Lost World and Sonic Boom have left the Sonic franchise with no future, failed concepts that have wasted years of development time and severely tarnished the reputation of the Sonic franchise as a result. However, the boost gameplay actually works; it's enjoyed by the majority of Sonic fans and the general gaming community as well. Thus, making Sonic Forces another boost game, in the style of Sonic Generations, is the only way to move the franchise forward again. Because without a strong foundation we end up with mistakes like Lost World and Sonic Boom, the boost gameplay provides the strong foundation necessary for further innovation.

You may sneer now at the gameplay mechanic you thought you got rid of six years ago, trying diminish it's enjoyment with off-handed attacks about its mechanics and everything associated with Sonic Generations' celebrated gameplay. However, the truth has at last been borne out and Sega realises that the successful formula of Sonic Generations is the correct path forward. Sonic Team should have listened to all those who praised Sonic Generations in 2011, as one of the best 3D Sonic game experiences ever made. At last Sonic Forces is the correct response to the positive reception of the boost gameplay by both Sonic fans and other gamers, to ensure that the boost remains the foundation of future 3D Sonic games. Because make no mistake, at this point without the continuation of the boost gameplay we won't have a Sonic franchise anymore.

[FriendBot]

We would have a Sonic franchise, we got Mania lmao

[JezMM]

Much as I love it, I wouldn't necessarily say boost gameplay is the "correct" way forward.

"The path of least resistance" perhaps, which is ironic considering Sonic Forces' tagline.

[Diogenes]

13 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Your faith isn't necessary only your capacity to reason, to understand why the boost gameplay in Sonic Forces is essential for the continued survival of the Sonic franchise.

It really just isn't, dude. The boost gameplay isn't "essential", it's just the only thing they've got right now. If they actually had talent, vision, and basic competence, they could make much better games, including ones that don't match my preferred style. But instead we get style-over-substance boost gameplay, and Sonic slowly marches towards a death not of spectacular failure, but of complete and utter apathy.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, JezMM said:

Much as I love it, I wouldn't necessarily say boost gameplay is the "correct" way forward.

"The path of least resistance" perhaps, which is ironic considering Sonic Forces' tagline.

Sonic Forces the East to continue while the West is clearly taking over/superior.

Let them try, let them try, a few games from the Whitehead team and everything will be in the West in regards to the Sonic franchise. BOOM with all its faults is more superior than content from the East in comparison when it comes to making Sonic TV shows when you compare X to the BOOM series.

Heck, despite faults, look at Satam and Adventures of Sonic too.

The East hasn't done anything right in years be it games, cartoons, they suck on all fronts. It's a has-been division so obsessed on former glories that they can't see what's going on here and now and where the future is headed.

Look at the Mania project, the East cried "nostalgia stages!!" and people have loathed them over the decision while Whitehead is STILL making that decision work despite gripes and is turning gripes into grins.

Out with the old, in with the new.

[Kintor]

Just now, Soni said:

We would have a Sonic franchise, we got Mania lmao

Get serious, in this day and age Sonic Mania, a downloadable retro title, will never have the same impact as a AAA 3D Sonic game. We need Sonic Forces to be a success, to redeem high-budget 3D Sonic games in the eyes of gamers and the industry as a whole. Without Sonic Forces and what it represents in the restored boost gamepaly we will be truly lost.

1 minute ago, JezMM said:

Much as I love it, I wouldn't necessarily say boost gameplay is the "correct" way forward.

"The path of least resistance" perhaps, which is ironic considering Sonic Forces' tagline.

I don't about that, with way certain voices within the Sonic franchise seem to hate the boost gameplay with a burning passion I think it's pretty obvious that defending Soinc Forces is the path of most resistence. But I'm used to that by now; back in 2008 I was a huge advocate of Sonic Unleashed because I clearly saw the potential of the boost gameplay as the culimnation of Sonic's 3D platforming. Nearly a decade later I still maintain that the boost gameplay represents the future of the Sonic franchise as a whole, as is evident through the success of Sonic Generations compared to the failures of Lost World and Sonic Boom.

 

[FriendBot]

Just now, Kintor said:

Get serious, in this day and age Sonic Mania, a downloadable retro title, will never have the same impact as a AAA 3D Sonic game. We need Sonic Forces to be a success, to redeem high-budget 3D Sonic games in the eyes of gamers and the industry as a whole. Without Sonic Forces and what it represents in the restored boost gamepaly we will be truly lost.

If we have to rely on a shallow gameplay style for future Modern Sonic games, this franchise is already dead.

[Kintor]

4 minutes ago, Soni said:

If we have to rely on a shallow gameplay style for future Modern Sonic games, this franchise is already dead.

On the contrary, the Sonic franchise nearly died when Sega discared the boost gameplay and instead turned to ill-conceived experimeents like Lost World and Sonic Boom. It's something of a miracle we still have a Sonic franchise at all, six years after Sonic Generations, the last successful Sonic game. Brinding the boost back now in Sonic Forces is essential to giving new life to the Sonic franchise.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Kintor said:

Get serious, in this day and age Sonic Mania, a downloadable retro title, will never have the same impact as a AAA 3D Sonic game. We need Sonic Forces to be a success, to redeem high-budget 3D Sonic games in the eyes of gamers and the industry as a whole. Without Sonic Forces and what it represents in the restored boost gamepaly we will be truly lost.

I don't about that, with way certain voices within the Sonic franchise seem to hate the boost gameplay with a burning passion I think it's pretty obvious that defending Soinc Forces is the path of most resistence. But I'm used to that by now; back in 2008 I was a huge advocate of Sonic Unleashed because I clearly saw the potential of the boost gameplay as the culimnation of Sonic's 3D platforming. Nearly a decade later I still maintain that the boost gameplay represents the future of the Sonic franchise as a whole, as is evident through the success of Sonic Generations compared to the failures of Lost World and Sonic Boom.

 

Ha haaaaa... No.

For one, I personally expect Mania to outperform Forces in both numbers sold and overall profit, and this is going to be a title likely twice as cheap as Forces, assuming it's $19.99 USD that is, $29.99 likely too, so if the total profit from it manages to beat a $59.99 title...

I'll poop myself, so help me I will poop myself. lol

My guess is we're going to start seeing more high budget 2D leading to 2.5D titles in the future with more and more meat while the 3D series either takes a hiatus or suddenly finally sucks it up and goes back in an Adventure/Utopia direction, otherwise I don't see the need/reason to keep wasting time and money on 3D games that will under-perform in sales numbers and profits in a day and age when costs are SKYROCKETING out of control.

[JezMM]

8 minutes ago, Kintor said:

I don't about that, with way certain voices within the Sonic franchise seem to hate the boost gameplay with a burning passion I think it's pretty obvious that defending Soinc Forces is the path of most resistence. But I'm used to that by now; back in 2008 I was a huge advocate of Sonic Unleashed because I clearly saw the potential of the boost gameplay as the culimnation of Sonic's 3D platforming. Nearly a decade later I still maintain that the boost gameplay represents the future of the Sonic franchise as a whole, as is evident through the success of Sonic Generations compared to the failures of Lost World and Sonic Boom.

 

Sonic Unleashed is my favourite Sonic game and I too believed the gameplay has potential, I still believe it does... but believing doesn't do shit unless Sonic Team can actually figure out how to unlock that potential, which thus far they haven't.  Nothing in the Forces footage suggests they HAVEN'T since we cannot judge a whole game on 40 seconds from what is likely a tutorial phase, but nothing says it has either considering said tutorial phase is identical to the initial challenges Windmill Isle, Tropical Resort and Green Hill threw at us.

Like I so desperately want this to be the one that changes everything but so far the pessimism is justified.

 

The Sonic franchise suffered not because they discarded the boost but because of WHAT they replaced it with.  Advocates against the boost are saying they gave up too soon on trying to replace it.  An entirely subjective but entirely reasonable viewpoint.

[Kintor]

6 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Ha haaaaa... No.

For one, I personally expect Mania to outperform Forces in both numbers sold and overall profit, and this is going to be a title likely twice as cheap as Forces, assuming it's $19.99 USD that is, $29.99 likely too, so if the total profit from it manages to beat a $59.99 title...

Don't turn this into a petty contest between Sonic Forces and Sonic Mania, at a time when the health of the Sonic franchise is so dire. Your expectations are misguided, the millions that Sega can make from AAA 3D Sonic game will always eclipse that of a more modest downloadable time, even with the vastly greater budgets inevitably devoted to Sonic Team's effforts. Furthermore, the success of Sonic Forces will pave the way for more 3D Sonic games in the future, providing renewed opportunities for greater storytelling and more playable characters, all based around the boost gameplay. Yet the failure of Sonic Forces will deny the Sonic franchise it's future, crushing all innovation and preventing more 3D Sonic games from being made.

[Diogenes]

I'd be more inclined to take this boost cultery seriously if you could actually defend the gameplay on its own merits and not just point to the failure of other games.

e: really how can you claim that Forces' success will enable innovation and its failure will prevent innovation when all we've seen so far is it doing the same damn thing again. Sonic Team is going to ride this lazy gameplay for as long as people allow it.

[Kintor]

Just now, Diogenes said:

I'd be more inclined to take this boost cultery seriously if you could actually defend the gameplay on its own merits and not just point to the failure of other games.

What I'm saying is that your single-minded campaign to condemn the returin of the boost gameplay is both reckless and self-destructive. We've already seen what can be achieved with the high-quality boost gameplay, thanks to the success of Sonic Generations. We've all seen what happens when the boost gameplay is missing, when disasters like Lost World and Sonic Boom decimated the future of the Sonic franchise. To attack Sonic Force's gameplay now is to drag the Sonic Franchise back towards the termoil of the last six years, which will only see the Sonic franchise destroyed.

[Chris Knopps]

6 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Don't turn this into a petty contest between Sonic Forces and Sonic Mania, at a time when the health of the Sonic franchise is so dire. Your expectations are misguided, the millions that Sega can make from AAA 3D Sonic game will always ecipse that of a more modest downloadable time, even with the vastly greater budgets inevitably devoted to Sonic Team's effforts. Furthermore, the success of Sonic Forces will pave the way for more 3D Sonic games in the future, providing renowed opportunities for greater storytelling and more playable characters, all based around the boost gameplay. Yet the failure of Sonic Forces will deny the Sonic franchise it's future, crushing all innovation and preventing more 3D Sonic games from being made.

I really see it as a no-contest situation...

No...HIGH expectations for Whitehead Team, FEW expectations for Sonic Team, keeps me safe, sane and satisfied.

I don't see any sane company, even SEGA despite their history, continuously pushing out more and more money, approving hire and hire budgets, for a division repeatedly failing to deliver time and time again whether they stick to "tried and true" styles via Forces or "go all new" via Lost World.

Oh, are we talking about Whitehead Team now? Totally agree there!

No... I'd say it's certain more 3D games in the Sonic franchise will come, just not with the same staff and same people in charge we have now. You don't have to worry about the 3D portion of the franchise, just those behind them going out the door.

[Kintor]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

No... I'd say it's certain more 3D games in the Sonic franchise will come, not with the same staff and same people in charge we have now. You don't have to worry about the 3D portion of the franchise, just those behind them going out the door.

Sonic Forces fails we won't get any more 3D Sonic games, we might not get anymore Sonic games period. Sonic forces represents the future of the franchise as a whole, with all the sweeping changes and potentials for tie-in merchandise along the way. The failure of Sonic Forces will cause Sega to lose confidence in the Sonic franchise, after six years of losing money on one failed experiment after another. Sonic Forces is the last chance to get things right, everything is riding on this game whether you realise yet or not.

[Diogenes]

Just now, Kintor said:

What I'm saying is that your single-minded campaign to condemn the returin of the boost gameplay is both reckless and self-destructive. We've already seen what can be achieved with the high-quality boost gameplay,

Games I hate, yeah. Not seeing the benefit for me in defending it.

Just now, Kintor said:

We've all seen what happens when the boost gameplay is missing, when disasters like Lost World and Sonic Boom decimated the future of the Sonic franchise.

You can't seriously be so simple minded as to think that literally nothing but the boost can work, can you?

Just now, Kintor said:

To attack Sonic Force's gameplay now is to drag the Sonic Franchise back towards the termoil of the last six years, which will only see the Sonic franchise destroyed.

And if it sticks with the boost gameplay it's going to be destroyed anyway. I'd rather it actually try to be good instead of give up and pump out shallow trash.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Kintor said:

Sonic Forces fails we won't get any more 3D Sonic games, we might not get anymore Sonic games period. Sonic forces represents the future of the franchise as a whole, with all the sweeping changes and potentials for tie-in merchandise along the way. The failure of Sonic Forces will cause Sega to lose confidence in the Sonic franchise, after six years of losing money on one failed experiment after another. Sonic Forces is the last chance to get things right, everything is riding on this game whether you realise yet or not.

If you say so man.

(I just think it means goodbye Sonic Team of Japan, be it just employees replaced or the division gone as a whole)

In the meantime, just gonna sip some tea and wait for whatever to happen. Either way, we've got Mania and Whitehead Team and I'm happy.

[Wraith]

5 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Sonic Forces fails we won't get any more 3D Sonic games, we might not get anymore Sonic games period. Sonic forces represents the future of the franchise as a whole, with all the sweeping changes and potentials for tie-in merchandise along the way. The failure of Sonic Forces will cause Sega to lose confidence in the Sonic franchise, after six years of losing money on one failed experiment after another. Sonic Forces is the last chance to get things right, everything is riding on this game whether you realise yet or not.

What would be the point of 3D Sonic continuing to exist if people aren't satisfied with it? People have the right to voice their concerns.