Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Meta77]

Reading the last few post what it sounds like are that people don't like bosses from well any game.  all bosses require you to learn some pattern and they are much of course they require more than one hit. I miss the 8 hit days of the 90s.

[FriendBot]

While I'm probably one of the few people who would love to see Boom Sonic in Forces, I don't think just two pieces of art is good enough proof that SEGA still cares about the subseries.

I mean, yeah they delayed Fire & Ice but it was released with very little promotion. Some stuff here and there but nowhere near as much as Mania (and eventually Forces down the line). 

Heck, the main pillar of Boom itself is pretty much tossed aside by SEGA themselves as well. Barely bother to make mention of new episodes through the Tumblr page and that's it. I mean, heck it would be neat to see some SEGA employees to join in on that live Twitter Q&A session for Boom (which trended btw) but nope, nothing from their end. Boom has been nominated in a couple of film/show festivals in the past few weeks (and won in one of those festivals) so it might just be me and my silly Boom bias but I'm sure if you got a show that's an award winner; would be nice to promote that kind of stuff and help boost the reputation of the brand but nope. Heck, while it's getting screwed over here in the US (although the ratings for Boom are pretty damn good on Boomerang, which just has a miserable active audience to begin with), it's been doing very well in foreign countries being shown in like over 90 countries. It was selling so well, it was also nominated for best selling international show or something like that.

Granted, they could surprise and still go with it anyway/ But while I would love to see it happen but the fact of SEGA barely even acknowledging that Boom exists, makes the possibility just made the impossible even more impossible.

but yeah, sniff sniff get over it. It's probably going to be the new character even though it's gonna be weird to have a new character be playable along with the 2 Sonics. It's all weird man.

[Meta77]

I want a new female hedgehog villain. Pure villain and long term addition.  No romance or rival angle. But just someone evil who wants to work with eggman or naga or whoever took the world over

[JezMM]

57 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Reading the last few post what it sounds like are that people don't like bosses from well any game.  all bosses require you to learn some pattern and they are much of course they require more than one hit. I miss the 8 hit days of the 90s.

Not really... at all though?  We specifically gave examples of what we consider to be good fun bosses, and there are plenty of games that pull it off.

I just hate when a boss is literally just "dodge a series of attacks" and then the boss just lowers it's weakpoint down to you on a silver platter for a few seconds.  But worse is when it does take skill to get to the bosses' weakpoint and failure results in not getting another chance until you sit through the entire attack pattern again.  I prefer bosses where their attacks have the side effect of exposing their weakpoint in a way that requires you to make a choice: to either simply dodge attacks, or dodge AND attempt to hit the boss.

 

Boost-wise, Egg Devil Ray, Rooftop Run's boss from Sonic Unleashed is a good example.  His weakpoint is ALWAYS on offer, but sometimes it is harder to reach than other times.  It is the player's choice whether they simply dodge attacks and wait for one which is easier to reach him for them, or they go full hog and try to weave their way through the hazards and hit him at every single opportunity (and then it rewards you for holding onto your boost energy by allowing you to get an extra hit in by boosting after him each time).  Of course on several of these attacks, he comes right up to you afterwards, meaning a less confident player will still be awarded opportunities to hit them, while a speedrunner can blast through it with skill, which is just as fun and rewarding considering they likely played it the "slow way" the first time they took the boss on.

Meanwhile, one of the worst examples is... also Egg Devil Ray, Rooftop Run's boss from Sonic Unleashed.  The twist is this time I'm talking about the Wii/PS2 version of the boss, which DOESN'T let you hit him until his attack is done each time.  There's no strategy to it, you just wait and survive then homing attack him when he comes over and gormlessly stares at you for a moment.  Which is suitably reflected in the fact that this is the only daytime boss in the game that gives you a whopping 4 minute time limit for an S Rank - which will be automatically awarded to you as long as you don't literally refuse to homing attack him when the opportunity arises.  There's no way to beat him faster than that.

[Meta77]

42 minutes ago, JezMM said:

Not really... at all though?  We specifically gave examples of what we consider to be good fun bosses, and there are plenty of games that pull it off.

I just hate when a boss is literally just "dodge a series of attacks" and then the boss just lowers it's weakpoint down to you on a silver platter for a few seconds.  But worse is when it does take skill to get to the bosses' weakpoint and failure results in not getting another chance until you sit through the entire attack pattern again.  I prefer bosses where their attacks have the side effect of exposing their weakpoint in a way that requires you to make a choice: to either simply dodge attacks, or dodge AND attempt to hit the boss.

 

Boost-wise, Egg Devil Ray, Rooftop Run's boss from Sonic Unleashed is a good example.  His weakpoint is ALWAYS on offer, but sometimes it is harder to reach than other times.  It is the player's choice whether they simply dodge attacks and wait for one which is easier to reach him for them, or they go full hog and try to weave their way through the hazards and hit him at every single opportunity (and then it rewards you for holding onto your boost energy by allowing you to get an extra hit in by boosting after him each time).  Of course on several of these attacks, he comes right up to you afterwards, meaning a less confident player will still be awarded opportunities to hit them, while a speedrunner can blast through it with skill, which is just as fun and rewarding considering they likely played it the "slow way" the first time they took the boss on.

Meanwhile, one of the worst examples is... also Egg Devil Ray, Rooftop Run's boss from Sonic Unleashed.  The twist is this time I'm talking about the Wii/PS2 version of the boss, which DOESN'T let you hit him until his attack is done each time.  There's no strategy to it, you just wait and survive then homing attack him when he comes over and gormlessly stares at you for a moment.  Which is suitably reflected in the fact that this is the only daytime boss in the game that gives you a whopping 4 minute time limit for an S Rank - which will be automatically awarded to you as long as you don't literally refuse to homing attack him when the opportunity arises.  There's no way to beat him faster than that.

Sonic unleashed bosses were all relatively easy. I miss things like sonic and knuckles final boss was the best. You could not sit still as he was always attacking. And his weak point window was super tight to get into in time

[Lady Soniko]

I feel like the satisfaction you get from Boost gameplay is learning to memorize the quickest and efficient path without slowing down, Rooftop Run Act 1 Day in Unleashed is my absolute favorite 3D Sonic level in the boost games EVER. It's a huge rollercoaster and if you play it right and time everything right, there's not one second you even have to stop or slow down, THAT is what makes it so satisfying to play. This is why I absolutely HATE Gens modern take on Rooftop Run, it's very much stop and go, wait for the timing and the footing in the level is all over the place so there's very little to run on without losing your speed and having to do some very messy platforming on floating platforms, where as Rooftop Run in Unleashed transitions really well between each part of the level. There's a section where you boost off a ramp, do a trick/swirl in the air and JUST before your boost effect runs out (which tends to happen when you boost jump in the air after a few seconds) you land on a rail, do a double corkscrew and maintain your boost and man it feels so... GOOD to just pull that off and not have to slow down or re-initiate the boost and waste a chunk of your ring energy.

I'd be kidding myself that after the initial playthrough of the game it doesn't lose its replay value, it does. After 100%ing Generations whenever I go back to replay it, it's an hour session of just running through each modern level quickly, which I think will be the same case with Forces, but I see both sides of the argument on Boost games, because they are fun and satisfying once you force muscle memory of the stages but I can see the corridor automation that turn people off, and the lack of replay value.

[Scar]

The thing I'd say Gens Rooftop Run has going for it over then Unleashed counterpart is the length. The ending of Rooftop Run Day is needlessly long. Its a good minute or more of boosting in a straight line and doing nothing even remotely challenging.

E:

I would also say that Dragon Road Day and Jungle Joyride Day are better designed stages. The former is probably my most replayed stage and the latter would have been great were it not for the fucking ridiculous framedrops.

[Wraith]

I think the key to fixing the boost is to make it more skill based like it was in unleashed. There should be many, MANY alternate routes and it should be harder to maintain a boost for a whole level. I also want a more robust trick system. Just take more elements from Unleashed and Sonic Rush and less from Sonic Generations and Colors.

[Neo_Fire_Sonic]

Or they could just make it about platforming like the sonic series is supposed to be.

[Lady Soniko]

It bugs me that rings don't give you boost energy in Forces, if this is the only reason they brought Wisps back to limit your boost energy to certain areas and small bursts, I'm going to be pissed.

[Sega DogTagz]

37 minutes ago, Neo_Fire_Sonic said:

Or they could just make it about platforming like the sonic series is supposed to be.

Where have you been the last ten years? Gotta go fast son

 

Seriously though, the boost gameplay is at its best when it allows you to incorporate all of Sonic's mechanics into a flow of platforming challenges. Using the boost in tandem with jumping, sliding, stomping and quicksteping to uncover new routes and blow past obstacles with a stylish flare. 

When you say stuff like that, it sounds like boost gamegplay has to be divorced from the idea of platforming. While it has been mostly segmented away from platforming, Sonic Team has shown the ability to design levels in which the boost is a valuable tool in spanning platforms. Any good speedrun video will testify to that end.

Speed and platforming. It is possible to have both.

[Cakito]

4 hours ago, Meta77 said:

I want a new female hedgehog villain. Pure villain and long term addition.  No romance or rival angle. But just someone evil who wants to work with eggman or naga or whoever took the world over

Yeah, There is a lack of female characters in (mais) Sonic Series

We have, what? 4? Amy, Blaze, Cream, and  Rouge... oh and Elise

 

[Shadowlax]

5 hours ago, Meta77 said:

I want a new female hedgehog villain. Pure villain and long term addition.  No romance or rival angle. But just someone evil who wants to work with eggman or naga or whoever took the world over

This is sega

She will be in love with shadow and try to convince him to be evil. She will see him once in a short cameo and be instantly infatuated. Cool female characters getting to be cool by themselves, nah. Sega don't know what that is.  Sticks is a ticking timebomb untill some crap like that happens. 

Untill I get proven otherwise, I don't trust sega as far as I can throw them in regards to that sort of stuff.

[StaticMania]

34 minutes ago, Cakito said:

Yeah, There is a lack of female characters in (mais) Sonic Series

We have, what? 4? Amy, Blaze, Cream, and  Rouge... oh and Elise

 

Maria, Vanilla, Marine, Tikal, the President's secretary...

[Cakito]

5 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Maria, Vanilla, Marine, Tikal, the President's secretary...

almost All of them are dead

And Vanilla and Marine appeared only in the Spin off series

[Meta77]

17 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

This is sega

She will be in love with shadow and try to convince him to be evil. She will see him once in a short cameo and be instantly infatuated. Cool female characters getting to be cool by themselves, nah. Sega don't know what that is.  Sticks is a ticking timebomb untill some crap like that happens. 

Untill I get proven otherwise, I don't trust sega as far as I can throw them in regards to that sort of stuff.

I say give them a chance. The reason it fails is cause they always try to make them become a friend at the end. Leave her evil. No romance to keep her evil.

 

Also off topic qip.  I miss ghost girl

[Kellan]

3 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

I say give them a chance. The reason it fails is cause they always try to make them become a friend at the end. Leave her evil. No romance to keep her evil.

 

Also off topic qip.  I miss ghost girl

Lost World had a female villain, and she failed without a cliche redemption arc.

Edit: That being said, we do need more female characters, and a villain does sound interesting.

[Shadowlax]

9 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

I say give them a chance. The reason it fails is cause they always try to make them become a friend at the end. Leave her evil. No romance to keep her evil.

 

I'm not sega falls into the same traps time and again, hell I don't even trust them on this game. Hell I still don't think this game coming out this year. I'm still on that. 

I also wouldn't trust them with this, because that dynamic is sellable. " Oh here's the new cool character, that likes the other super popular character, who wants him to be evil" they have been more than ever on the marketing tip than ever before.  

Point is, sega still does the redemption and girlfriend or romantic interest for no reason thing to this day. Until they do it for a reasonable amount of time, There is no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt.  That's the sort of thing like a lot of things in sonic, that would require an ideology change more than anything, 

[Blue Blood]

4 hours ago, Lady Soniko said:

It bugs me that rings don't give you boost energy in Forces, if this is the only reason they brought Wisps back to limit your boost energy to certain areas and small bursts, I'm going to be pissed.

 

Enemies do too, just as in Colours. Iizuka mentioned this in fact, so it may not be as limited as you think. Colours only put White Wisps in some enemies, but we don't know how it'll work yet in Forces. 

You bringing this up though has just made me hopeful that the boost its more limited, especially cause Ring Energy is out. Literally got opposite opinions on this one. Lol 

[D.K.]

1 hour ago, Kellan said:

Lost World had a female villain, and she failed without a cliche redemption arc.

That's because (in my honest opinion) Lost World's story and writing had no absolutely thought or love put into any of its dialogue, humour or setting. Sonic can pull off a female villain just as it can a male one, but as I said a few pages back it's all about execution.

[JosepHenry]

(I liked Merlina from SatBK)

[Shadowlax]

4 minutes ago, Depression Kong said:

That's because (in my honest opinion) Lost World's story and writing had no absolutely thought or love put into any of its dialogue, humour or setting. Sonic can pull off a female villain just as it can a male one, but as I said a few pages back it's all about execution.

I think sonic can have a female villain fine. But its more than execution, its more about whoever writing being able to do that, its about them wanting to do it. The comic has had a few, some poorly executed and apart of one of the worst things in the sonic franchise, some of them much better than that,  It came from people wanting to do that for better or for worse, and it doesn't seem like sega wants to commit to that idea. The new bonus, nerf that all new character may get that may impact this, is that they might be just horribly designed. The D6 were, terrible, and even if they did make a competent character, if they are flowing the design logic of anything close to that, she might not catch on. Hell well designed characters don't catch on sometimes, blaze being an example. So there are a lot of variables. But it all starts from a desire from sega, it just doesn't seem like they have. 

[D.K.]

16 minutes ago, JosepMelloZSM said:

(I liked Merlina from SatBK)

Merlina was fantastic. Not just as a well-written villain, but also as an example of how Sonic can interact with a girl without any romantic undertones.

[JezMM]

How to write a good female villian:

1. Write a good villian

2. Have them be female

 

It's not that complicated an issue lol.

[BubbleButt TV]

Y'all need to watch this video essay from start to end. It's very well made and brings up some very true points.

You know what? For as much flak people will give Colours these days, you can't that its biggest strength was that it was straight up a Modern formula game from start to end. There were no half-measures. It was a game that focused purely on its mechanics and at least had faith that the Modern gameplay could work as a full game without the crutch of a forced alternate playstyle.