Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[RictalRose0]

I don't get it, you guys have been complaining about the inclusion of Classic Sonic non-stop ever since the trailer. That person that made that video is no different that us. I don't think they even hate Classic Sonic or anything, they just made that video to showcase they would have prefered if we actually got around to see Sonic's friends. In this case, Shadow. Because they like Shadow. Would you be saying the same if it had been Knuckles or Tails? Probably yes because gotta love contrarianism.

[Shadowlax]

Just now, Diogenes said:

Who said anything about drawing fanart? I'm talking about the implied spite in covering up a character you don't like with one that you do.

That's what that video is, its just fan art of a version of something that person would have liked better. Improving on something, its fairly normal and a basis for a lot of creative pursuits, to do a better version of something , at least to you than thing presented or at least different. 

Just now, Diogenes said:

If I say, "Shadow is a joke", that's my opinion. But if I think Shadow is a joke, is a fact that I think that Shadow is a joke.

Thats the definition of an opinion... 

Just now, Diogenes said:

 

It is a fact that I have a particular opinion. "Diogenes thinks Shadow is a joke" is a true statement, not an opinion.

It true that you think that,but its still an opinion 

[Wraith]

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I see people shit on akuma all the time.

With the exact same cadence and anti-edge sentiments, evil ryu aswell. And Cody, but all those popular characters in the franchise. Everytime akuma gets brought up on sites I see several people shitting on him, wishing he wasn't in the game for being edgy and being a clone of ryu. Oh that's familiar. These complaints intensified with akumas.... interesting design choice in SFV.

I've seen people shit on his design and the fact that he's a shoto and shit, sure, but in mainstream gaming circles he's not mocked to the same degree Shadow is and he's also one of the most played characters in SFV even now. We can't even agree here, on a SONIC FAN FORUM, whether Shadow's okay to put in a game or not, that says to me he's divisive. The conversation about him is also the same in other Sonic communities from what I've seen. 

I'm not really arguing against Shadow's inclusion either, but I'm tired lately of people trying to argue that the complaints against the series in the mid 2000s were either overblown or didn't happen.

[RictalRose0]

4 minutes ago, Josh said:

whether Shadow's okay to put in a game or not

I'm pretty sure most of us would be okay with at least one of Sonic's friends being playable again in some way though. If said character was Shadow, that would be okay because we miss them.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

That's what that video is, its just fan art of a version of something that person would have liked better. Improving on something, its fairly normal and a basis for a lot of creative pursuits, to do a better version of something , at least to you than thing presented or at least different. 

I'm not calling out all fan art, but calling something fan art doesn't give it a free pass, and I get a bad vibe from this "replace classic Sonic" fanart.

1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

It true that you think that,but its still an opinion 

That's literally the point I'm trying to make, and literally the sense I used in the first place. I'm not saying that Shadow is factually a joke, I am saying that, factually, his game caused people to have the opinion that he is a joke.

[RictalRose0]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

and I get a bad vibe from this "replace classic Sonic" fanart

Didn't you complain about the inclusion of Classic Sonic previously? 

[Shadowlax]

Just now, Josh said:

I've seen people shit on his design and the fact that he's a shoto and shit, sure, but in mainstream gaming circles he's not mocked to the same degree Shadow is and he's also one of the most played characters in SFV even now. We can't even agree here, on a SONIC FAN FORUM, whether he's okay to put in a game or not, that says to me he's divisive. The conversation about him is also the same in other Sonic communities from what I've seen. 

People disagree on everything on enthusiast forums, you will never come to full agreement if you do either something supremely shitty , or very very good or no one cares enough to decent, or the moderators are lording over opinions. But this happens in every forum.

To use SF an an example again. 

People during SFV's early development were arguing whether ken of all characters should be in V , KEN. Folks disagree about characters games and things all the time, hell the argument about whether SF3 was actually good is still going on to this day. And as someone who plays sf you know there are contingent of folks who think that's the best SF. And there are people , maybe because those people exist, who think the exact opposite. 

People disagreeing with what zelda should be

People in RE forums railing against what RE7 is its changes to the franchise.. .and characters that appear in that game that look different. People disagreeing on enthusiast forums is the nature of enthusiast forums. 

Just now, Josh said:

I'm not really arguing against Shadow's inclusion either, but I'm tired lately of people trying to argue that the complaints against the series in the mid 2000s were either overblown or didn't happen.

Eh, I think they were overblown in some regards. But over all we agree on this, I made a post in another thread directly saying that a lot of the disdain the series does receive is in many ways justified but and that its sega's fault and i'm tired of blaming anyone but  sega. 

 

6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'm not calling out all fan art, but calling something fan art doesn't give it a free pass, and I get a bad vibe from this "replace classic Sonic" fanart.

Why? Why does that make you upset? People want to see other characters than classic sonic, disagree move on, That's up setting, but the boxer hockey dude has a fan comic where shadow gets his faced punched in by super sonic and that's magically ok? No both of those things are ok, its a fun thing, I didn't get my underwear in a knot because he did that, it was fun and creative and he did well. 

Its ok. 

6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That's literally the point I'm trying to make, and literally the sense I used in the first place. I'm not saying that Shadow is factually a joke, I am saying that, factually, his game caused people to have the opinion that he is a joke.

Alright then

[Diogenes]

5 minutes ago, RictalRose0 said:

Didn't you complain about the inclusion of Classic Sonic previously? 

Yes, but I didn't spend my time making a video where I stick my favorite character in his place and pretend like I "fixed" it.

[RictalRose0]

No instead you spend like one week on a forum saying how Forces was gonna be a terrible game based on 30 seconds of Gameplay. Let's not pretend like we're all superior now. So okay maybe that's a little rude but no one's forcing any of you to watch that video are they? Nor did they start a petition or made any sort of rant blog about it to my knowledge. It's just one little video dude.

[Wraith]

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yes, but I didn't spend my time making a video where I stick my favorite character in his place and pretend like I "fixed" it.

With how much time we spend debating the same points here can we really talk though lol

[Shadowlax]

Just now, Diogenes said:

Yes, but I didn't spend my time making a video where I stick my favorite character in his place and pretend like I "fixed" it.

People pretend fix things all the time?

That's how a lot of comic writers got their start , writing better versions of the things they have read. That's how a lot of amazing series critical of the genre they exist in start, they want to talk about and criticize the things presented, and in some cases advocate for their removal. 

That's ok, its an opinion just expressed in art form, that's fine. 

[Tracker_TD]

Just now, RictalRose0 said:

No instead you spend like one week on a forum saying how Forces was gonna be a terrible game based on 30 seconds of Gameplay. So okay maybe that's a little rude but no one's forcing any of you to watch that video are they? Nor did they start a petition or made any sort of rant blog about it to my knowledge. It's just one little video dude.

Yeah, and anyone can critique it or praise it as they see fit, innit. Nobody's obliged to like something just because "someone made this!!", nor should they be told to hush because they didn't like it. 

Also this "only 30 seconds of gameplay" excuse is bloody nonsense. Else it's time to laugh at anyone praising it based on 30 seconds, too. 

[RictalRose0]

But i'm not telling them to like it. I'm just saying it's not that big of a deal.

[Wraith]

10 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

People disagree on everything on enthusiast forums, you will never come to full agreement if you do either something supremely shitty , or very very good or no one cares enough to decent, or the moderators are lording over opinions. But this happens in every forum.

To use SF an an example again. 

People during SFV's early development were arguing whether ken of all characters should be in V , KEN. Folks disagree about characters games and things all the time, hell the argument about whether SF3 was actually good is still going on to this day. And as someone who plays sf you know there are contingent of folks who think that's the best SF. And there are people , maybe because those people exist, who think the exact opposite. 

People disagreeing with what zelda should be

People in RE forums railing against what RE7 is its changes to the franchise.. .and characters that appear in that game that look different. People disagreeing on enthusiast forums is the nature of enthusiast forums.

You make a good point here, but Akuma and Ken are still adored in mainstream circles and that's why they were added regardless. Akuma isn't THAT controversial if they let him in Tekken 7, right? People wouldn't reference Raging Demon all the time if they didn't at least have some fondness for him, right?

With Shadow, it seems like he's only brought up by casual fans or non fans when people want to make a joke, y'know?

[RictalRose0]

If we're going by that the series in general is talked about as a joke by non-fans isn't it? Sonic, the most popular character, often gets the worst of it. Compared to other characters and seeing as how he's on a very notorious spot he doesn't have it as bad as he could have.

Besides there's two camps of casual fans. The children demographic which is the main one and the teen to early adult one that grew up with Sonic but aren't hardcore fans of it by any means. And while the second one feels mixed about a lot of things, including Shadow. The children demographic seems to be pretty okay with him.

[Shadowlax]

10 minutes ago, Josh said:

With Shadow, it seems like he's only brought up by casual fans or non fans when people want to make a joke, y'know?

I see people go " he should be in smash " quite often, people who are no where near the sonic inner fandom, who just have fond memories of times past like sa2 as well.People makes jokes about akuma, people make jokes about edgy characters all the time.  But they are still popular, there are a contingent of people who hate sasuke from naruto and mean despise, but he's popular. Heck a big youtuber mother's basement suggest his inclusion ruined naruto, but that doesn't stop that character from being popular. He knows that, he rails against the actual literally terrible SAO, and despite my inner most desires for that anime to die in a dumpster fire, it still exists is popular and gets games. Transformers movies, ect ect ect. 

Jokes ain't nothing but that my dude, jokes. But what matters is, what happens when you want to put money where you mouth is, and its been proven time and time again for sega it pays to keep shadow around for eventual re-use because when it comes to him, people talk that mad shit, but they'l show up for him. And transformers movies unfortunately enough. 

14 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Yeah, and anyone can critique it or praise it as they see fit, innit. Nobody's obliged to like something just because "someone made this!!", nor should they be told to hush because they didn't like it. 

Also this "only 30 seconds of gameplay" excuse is bloody nonsense. Else it's time to laugh at anyone praising it based on 30 seconds, too. 

You are correct. No one is obliged to like fan art, game play ect. However when those critical , kind of act like extremely immature at the idea of a video who's premise is extremely innocuous , it doesn't make them look good at all 

I'm just saying that guy went out and did something creative that made people happy, instead of kind of being a jerk on an internet forum about fan art with a hedgehog in it.  And people accuse him, her, them of being.. " but hurt" not even knowing the state of mind of that individual in the first place. 

[Wraith]

3 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I see people go " he should be in smash " quite often, people who are no where near the sonic inner fandom, who just have fond memories of times past like sa2 as well.People makes jokes about akuma, people make jokes about edgy characters all the time.  But they are still popular, there are a contingent of people who hate sasuke from naruto and mean despise, but he's popular. Heck a big youtuber mother's basement suggest his inclusion ruined naruto, but that doesn't stop that character from being popular. He knows that, he rails against the actual literally terrible SAO, and despite my inner most desires for that anime to die in a dumpster fire, it still exists is popular and gets games. Transformers movies, ect ect ect. 

 

You're not wrong. It might just be the websites I visit and the people I talk to.

This debate isn't going anywhere without any hard numbers anyway and we're not getting a headcount of how much of the fanbase likes Shadow any time soon. 

[Tracker_TD]

4 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

You are correct. No one is obliged to like fan art, game play ect. However when those critical , kind of act like extremely immature at the idea of a video who's premise is extremely innocuous , it doesn't make them look good at all 

I'm just saying that guy went out and did something creative that made people happy, instead of kind of being a jerk on an internet forum about fan art with a hedgehog in it.  And people accuse him, her, them of being.. " but hurt" not even knowing the state of mind of that individual in the first place. 

I'd argue thicker skin is needed. 

Innocuous video or not, I think it was dumb. Hilariously petty, innit. All of my Sonic fanart's innocuous, but damn right I'd tear my old stuff to shreds nowadays on account of it being utter wank.  

Tough, innit.

[RictalRose0]

Yeah, like. Isn't Ryuko from Kill la Kill often memed on about being edgy and beign compared to Shadow? But that's just memes. And although some people do believe she's kinda edgy she's still a beloved character of that fandom.

 

1 minute ago, Tracker_TD said:

I'd argue thicker skin is needed. 

 

To be fair, you guys are the ones that are getting all defensive over it. I'd yet to see the person that made that video do anything that shows they are offended or something. 

2 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Innocuous video or not, I think it was dumb. Hilariously petty, innit. All of my Sonic fanart's innocuous, but damn right I'd tear my old stuff to shreds nowadays on account of it being utter wank.  

 

Well then maybe one day this person will look back on that and say "Maybe that wasn't the best way to put fort my opinion" just like you have come to realize you old stuff wasn't good enough to your standards now.

[Zippo]

54 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Boy, when I start something I REALLY start it...

There's no reason to turn this into a self destructive thread hellbent on arguing with one another over how bad or good a character is despite both ends of the argument point blank admitting he's the second most popular in the franchise, be it a begrudging truth or not.

Okay, that's great for the sites you've visited but that in no way, shape or form points to anything being near a majority opinion when you consider many art sites still thrive on content revolving both Sonic and Shadow.

He is not a perfect character, but at the end of the day is is second only to Sonic no matter what, as I said, small niche circles feel at locations you've been.

 

Not to be rude or overly critical, but as seen in posts a couple of pages back, you have made controversial statements that many strongly disagree with. That is on you and you alone. Anyway, this whole post is moot because I never implied, or stated that the number of people who hated Shadow was even close to a majority. I even indicated that i was going by what I've seen on popular websites, such as NeoGaf. What isn't undeniable here is that he is the butt of many jokes in the community, and many here can back that up with the birth of his notoriety in Shadow the Hedgehog. 

[Tracker_TD]

9 minutes ago, RictalRose0 said:

Yeah, like. Isn't Ryuko from Kill la Kill often memed on about being edgy and beign compared to Shadow? But that's just memes. And although some people do believe she's kinda edgy she's still a beloved character of that fandom.

 

To be fair, you guys are the ones that are getting all defensive over it. I'd yet to see the person that made that video do anything that shows they are offended or something. 

Well then maybe one day this person will look back on that and say "Maybe that wasn't the best way to put fort my opinion" just like you have come to realize you old stuff wasn't good enough to your standards now.

What's defensive? I'm just refuting what others are saying.

And yeah, maybe they will. They ain't, so tough innit. 

[Shadowlax]

22 minutes ago, Josh said:

You're not wrong. It might just be the websites I visit and the people I talk to.

This debate isn't going anywhere without any hard numbers anyway and we're not getting a headcount of how much of the fanbase likes Shadow any time soon. 

That's the thing, and anecdotal. to get back to the sonic franchise as whole, yeah reviewers sites go say " oh sonic is a joke" but when it comes down to people buy games, and watch the show, and buy action figures of characters and request them. We wont ever have a head count, but sonic still makes a lot of money and sega makes alot using shadow from time to time. And when he's back in a game playable, they'll probably still make money

21 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

I'd argue thicker skin is needed. 

Innocuous video or not, I think it was dumb. Hilariously petty, innit. All of my Sonic fanart's innocuous, but damn right I'd tear my old stuff to shreds nowadays on account of it being utter wank.  

Tough, innit.

I don't think anyone is upset?

And your willingness to self deprecate, does not make you a master of everyone's works, nor does it validate your criticism in this case. It just makes you not confident in your  pursuits. 

21 minutes ago, RictalRose0 said:

Yeah, like. Isn't Ryuko from Kill la Kill often memed on about being edgy and beign compared to Shadow? But that's just memes. And although some people do believe she's kinda edgy she's still a beloved character of that fandom.

Ryoko from kill l kill is kind of nothing, she gets memed on for her having black and read hair, thats the meme. Thats how little an edge meme can start with, maybe we shouldn't hold those in the highest of regards ya know? I find that people like the other characters in kill la kill more than her outside of her design, she suffers from MC boring syndrome alot of the time. 

Also a lot of people who don't like that show at all, that would play into that. That show didn't really have the biggest impact and was very divided amongst the anime fan-base. We are veering of topic though, point is edge memes can be based on very little and mean very little. 

( also for many people the story seemed super similar to sonic adventure 2 and shadows game, also then she literally says the this is who I am line ) 

There there's this 

Spoiler

Weird natural merging of memery.

All memes shall just become sonic 

 

[Zippo]

Back on topic: I truly hope this third playable gameplay style isn't just another Sonic, or Boom Sonic for that matter. That would feel incredibly redundant to me. 

[blazefan519]

So... Sonic Forces, that's a game.

[Wraith]

1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

That's the thing, and anecdotal. to get back to the sonic franchise as whole, yeah reviewers sites go say " oh sonic is a joke" but when it comes down to people buy games, and watch the show, and buy action figures of characters and request them. We wont ever have a head count, but sonic still makes a lot of money and sega makes alot using shadow from time to time. And when he's back in a game playable, they'll probably still make money

 

 

Oh yeah I definitely think it wouldn't harm the sales of the game that much or anything, and that's the most important thing.