Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

2 minutes ago, Radiant Hero Ike said:

Isn't Sonic Colors a Modern Sonic only game? Like without a secondary gameplay style like Werehog and Classic? Or do the Wisps count as a secondary gameplay style?

It's the only one to pull that off. But yes, it actually did manage to sustain itself, albeit, that also had to do with levels not having to be nearly as long thanks to the boost getting limited more properly compared to Unleashed and Generations.

[Kintor]

12 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Yes, it's the new buzz word. Dio and I chose it last night after much deliberation. It's most certainly not just a way of accurately describing the developmental flaws in design.  

The only thing flawed here is your reasoning - when it comes to digital technology nothing is ever unsustainable. The technology that has made every Sonic game possible is also one of endless and exponential renewal:

The fear that Sonic’s speed could ever outstrip Sonic Team's technological grasp is simply absurd when every two years the sheer computing power at Sega's fingertips doubles. It's now easier than ever to create the levels that accommodate Sonic's boost gameplay and it will continue to get easier as times goes on, all thanks to the constantly increasing power of technology that is rightfully the Sonic franchise's to seize.

[Captain Fun]

4 minutes ago, Kintor said:

all thanks to the constantly increasing power of technology that is rightfully the Sonic franchise's to seize.

It is their destiny It is their birthright. Sonic Team will lay claim to this power and rule over their dominion.

Spoiler

post was kinda dramatic

 

[Kintor]

6 minutes ago, Captain Fun said:

It is their destiny It is their birthright. Sonic Team will lay claim to this power and rule over their dominion.

  Reveal hidden contents

post was kinda dramatic

 

Eh, fair enough. I tend to get quite passionate about technology and what it can mean for the future. I guess my enthusiasm has been running at fever pitch lately thanks to the new Ghost in the Shell movie. All that cyberpunk imagery being broadcast on TV and plastered on billboards...

Others look on in terror, I say full speed ahead to the cyberpunk dystopia!

 

[Radiant Hero Ike]

Ah, right.

I do agree that yeah, it's pretty unsustainable. I remember people saying how long the levels would have to be for a decent time spent in each stage. I still love em, but... It must take a lot of resources to make.

[PickleBrows]

22 minutes ago, Kintor said:

The only thing flawed here is your reasoning - when it comes to digital technology nothing is ever unsustainable. The technology that has made every Sonic game possible is also one of endless and exponential renewal:

The fear that Sonic’s speed could ever outstrip Sonic Team's technological grasp is simply absurd when every two years the sheer computing power at Sega's fingertips doubles. It's now easier than ever to create the levels that accommodate Sonic's boost gameplay and it will continue to get easier as times goes on, all thanks to the constantly increasing power of technology that is rightful the Sonic franchise's to seize.

 

 

Just want to throw it out there before I begin that I love the boost gameplay, Unleashed is my favourite game.

While you can definitely argue that it only gets more technologically feasible, human beings don't improve at the same rate which is what you'll find comprises most development teams.

It doesn't matter how powerful the tech is, they still have to put the hours into asset creation before finally beginning to construct a level environment. Yes as technology progresses there's more possibility for automation but to get those detailed environments we see in the likes of the Forces gameplay still requires a large amount of manual work. This is where the "unsustainability" argument comes in.

They're spending so much time crafting these environments yet we never get to interact with very much of them and worse, we'll blaze through so much of it in seconds. So much of that effort becomes wasted and we end up with very short experiences that require some sort of additional gameplay element in order to pad the runtime. SEGA wouldn't have been able to sell Unleashed or Generations without their respective additions at anywhere near full price. Unleashed even had the medal collecting requirement in the hopes of squeezing just a little more juice out of the levels they had.

To try and put it simply, the ratio of development time to actual playtime in any single boost gameplay level, or even one section of one level, is completely out of whack simply because of the nature of that playstyle.

[Kintor]

6 minutes ago, Joy said:

It doesn't matter how powerful the tech is, they still have to put the hours into asset creation before finally beginning to construct a level environment. Yes as technology progresses there's more possibility for automation but to get those detailed environments we see in the likes of the Forces gameplay still requires a large amount of manual work. This is where the "unsustainability" argument comes in.

The point of all technology is make human lives easier; this is especially true of computers. There are constantly new tools and programmers being invented to assist with video game development. The establishment of new game engines like the Hedgehog Engine are the most obvious example of this, allowing Sonic Team to create new games without having to develop the fundamental systems from scratch each time. But at every level there exists opportunities for Sonic Team to use new technology and the greater computing power available to them to more quickly and efficiently create the vast landscapes that all Sonic games thrive on. Which in turn also give Sonic Team more time to experiment with extra alternate gameplay styles, as they have been doing anyway since Sonic Adventure.

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, Kintor said:

That's still pretty shaky reasoning on your part. You're using an off-handed comment from nearly a decade ago to make sweeping accusations against the boost gameplay.

Because nothing's changed.

1 hour ago, Kintor said:

While neglecting to note that the existence of multiple alternate gameplay styles have been a fact of 3D Sonic games since 1998. Sonic Team includes extra gameplay alongside the boost because they want to do so not because they have, in part of how Sonic operates.

That other games in the series have had their own padding and experiments doesn't change that the boost games are and need to be padded to all hell.

55 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Never mind that Sonic the Hedgehog is one of the biggest video game franchises on the planet, with ample resources to design sprawling levels to accommodate the latest iterations of Sonic's high speed gameplay.

I thought the boost was saving Sonic from guaranteed destruction because they desperately need these games to sell?

25 minutes ago, Kintor said:

The only thing flawed here is your reasoning - when it comes to digital technology nothing is ever unsustainable. The technology that has made every Sonic game possible is also one of endless and exponential renewal:

Like Joy said, it's not about the technology, it's about the manpower. Better hardware can process more content, but it's not doing the work of creating it.

[Kintor]

Just now, Diogenes said:

Like Joy said, it's not about the technology, it's about the manpower. Better hardware can process more content, but it's not doing the work of creating it.

You still don't get it - 'manpower' can be amplified by exponential technology as happens in every industry, every day, including video games. The Hedgehog Engine itself is a great way of amplifying manpower as it takes the hard work out of designing the fundamentals, since the boost gameplay is all ready to go. Now Sonic Team has the brand new Hedgehog Engine 2, which doubtless has further streamlined the design process thanks to the greater computing power that Sega now has access to. In turn, each new Sonic game, each new boost game, will get easier to create thanks to the myriad of new tools and innovations that will be brought about by the exponential rate of technological innovation.

 

 

[PickleBrows]

5 minutes ago, Kintor said:

You still don't get it - 'manpower' can be amplified by exponential technology as happens in every industry, every day, including video games. The Hedgehog Engine itself is a great way of amplifying manpower as it takes the hard work out of designing the fundamentals, since the boost gameplay is all ready to go. Now Sonic Team has the brand new Hedgehog Engine 2, which doubtless has further streamlined the design process thanks to the greater computing power that Sega now has access to. In turn, each new Sonic game, each new boost game, will get easier to create thanks to the myriad of new tools and innovations that will be brought about by the exponential rate of technological innovation.

Again, you're absolutely right that as time goes on there's more opportunities for technology to aid or ease game development but the issue will always remain.

No matter how impressive the technology becomes, it still needs to be backed up by the man-hours and those are where the issue lies. True, those man-hours can be reduced through technological advancements but not to the point where 12-mile long courses are suddenly a non-issue. You can't automate, modelling, texturing, animating, object placement, scripted sequences, lighting programming (even if the engine can do the calculating), and then all the playtesting that goes on.

Technology helps, but there's the old saying that the tools are only as good as the one who uses them. 

You absolutely cannot "streamline the design process" to such the extent you're implying. Even areas where you can potentially automate parts of level creation still require people to actually instruct the computer on the whens, wheres and hows of what they want. In fact, as technology and games in general advance, there are only more parameters and boundaries that need to be accounted for when trying to automate.

I get where you're coming from, I genuinely do, but you're overestimating how much work can be taken off of the individual's shoulders.

[Kintor]

6 minutes ago, Joy said:

Technology helps, but there's the old saying that the tools are only as good as the one who uses them. 

You absolutely cannot "streamline the design process" to such the extent you're implying.

I get where you're coming from, I genuinely do, but you're overestimating how much work can be taken off of the individual's shoulders.

I think you're greatly underestimating the significance of Sonic the Hedgehog as an AAA franchise. You've spent too long witnessing mediocre Sonic Booms spinoffs and have no idea what Sonic Team is truly capable of now they have access to new cutting-edge hardware. After all, Sega is one of the largest and most powerful corporations in Japan, while Sonic Team remains one of their start development teams thanks in no small part to the ongoing success of Phantasy Star Online 2 and the enduring legacy of Sonic Generations as the last great Sonic. Let lesser teams and the Indy scene worry about finding people worthy of the tools available, Sonic Team already has all it needs and the backing of Sega's vast resources to make boost games like Sonic Forces possible with relative ease.

[Indigo Rush]

Cutting edge technology is great and all, but power doesn't necessarily mean better games, nor does it mean the users of those tools are more competent for it. Sonic Generations isn't really all that cutting edge, it's just competent in comparison to the rest of the crap it's associated with.

7 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Sega is one of the largest and most powerful corporations in Japan

[Wraith]

Some of my favorite games are made on what was considered lesser hardware at the time that I played them. A true excellent dev should be able to master the tools they have available. They shouldn't always be overshooting or waiting for something more powerful. Sonic Unleashed and to a lesser extent Generations falls into overshooting for me and I can't compliment them on it.

[Chris Knopps]

44 minutes ago, Joy said:

 

Just want to throw it out there before I begin that I love the boost gameplay, Unleashed is my favourite game.

While you can definitely argue that it only gets more technologically feasible, human beings don't improve at the same rate which is what you'll find comprises most development teams.

It doesn't matter how powerful the tech is, they still have to put the hours into asset creation before finally beginning to construct a level environment. Yes as technology progresses there's more possibility for automation but to get those detailed environments we see in the likes of the Forces gameplay still requires a large amount of manual work. This is where the "unsustainability" argument comes in.

They're spending so much time crafting these environments yet we never get to interact with very much of them and worse, we'll blaze through so much of it in seconds. So much of that effort becomes wasted and we end up with very short experiences that require some sort of additional gameplay element in order to pad the runtime. SEGA wouldn't have been able to sell Unleashed or Generations without their respective additions at anywhere near full price. Unleashed even had the medal collecting requirement in the hopes of squeezing just a little more juice out of the levels they had.

To try and put it simply, the ratio of development time to actual playtime in any single boost gameplay level, or even one section of one level, is completely out of whack simply because of the nature of that playstyle.

That's why you replace old employees who can't keep up with advancing/modern tech with those who can and have more talent/skill with what's at disposal.

The problem is SEGA of Japan being too terrified to send their tired senior has-beens out the door no matter how detrimental to their franchise it may be.

Look at SEGA of America and Christian Whitehead along with Webber and the teams around them. You tell me which division is doing the most good for the franchise now. Has-Been East or Next-Gen West.

Dare I say Whitehead is proving to be even better than Mr. Naka was back in the day. And we all know what Webber has done over the past year or two. It's like the East is a bunch of hermits huddled in a corner vanishing from sight while the West does everything for them.

 

11 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Cutting edge technology is great and all, but power doesn't necessarily mean better games, nor does it mean the users of those tools are more competent for it. Sonic Generations isn't really all that cutting edge, it's just competent in comparison to the rest of the crap it's associated with.

The point of my above argument as well.

 

[Kintor]

4 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Cutting edge technology is great and all, but power doesn't necessarily mean better games, nor does it mean the users of those tools are more competent for it. Sonic Generations isn't really all that cutting edge, it's just competent in comparison to the rest of the crap it's associated with.

It's absolutely right when I say that Sega is one of the largest and most powerful corporations in Japan. Things you don't immediately associate with Sega like Atlus and TMS entertainment are 100% owned by Sega. Not to mention all the real estate and telecommunications infrastructure that Sega also owns on the side, the games being published directly on consoles and PCs really only begins to scratch the surface of Sega's true resources. So, making games on the scale of Sonic Generations and even bigger, with the boost at its core, is not trouble for Sonic Team since they are one of Sega's star development teams with access to all the resources that entails.

[RictalRose0]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Whitehead is proving to be even better than Mr. Naka

Dude

2 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

And we all know what Webber has done over the past year or two.

He's done a lot of memes yeah. That doesn't really help the franchise that much. But PR is PR I guess.

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

That's why you replace old employees who can't keep up with advancing/modern tech with those who can and have more talent/skill with what's at disposal.

That's not the point at all, man. It's not about technological literacy, it's about the fundamental limits of modern human beings.

[Indigo Rush]

Just now, Kintor said:

It's absolutely right when I say that Sega is one of the largest and most powerful corporations in Japan. Things you don't immediately associate with Sega like Atlus and TMS entertainment are 100% owned by Sega. Not to mention all the real estate and telecommunications infrastructure that Sega also owns on the side, the games being published directly on consoles and PCs really only begins to scratch the surface of Sega's true resources.

http://www.economywatch.com/companies/forbes-list/japan.html

No.

Quote

So, making games on the scale of Sonic Generations and even bigger, with the boost at its core, is not trouble for Sonic Team since they are one of Sega's star development teams with access to all the resources that entails.

Generations was paltry, what are you talking about. 

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That's not the point at all, man. It's not about technological literacy, it's about the fundamental limits of modern human beings.

The limits of one are not the limits of another.

[Kintor]

2 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

http://www.economywatch.com/companies/forbes-list/japan.html

No.

Generations was paltry, what are you talking about. 

All is not what it seems, especially when large mega corporations are concerned. Sega Holdings is one of the largest corporations in Japan, even as many of its subsidiary business operate and record their profits in slightly different ledgers. Nevertheless, the key point still remains that Sega and in turn Sonic Team have ample resources to produce the boost gameplay, with the potential to easily go beyond what was achieved in Sonic Generations thanks to exponential technological advancement.

[Dannymax440]

2 hours ago, Kintor said:

I think that your reasoning here is pretty flawed, just because Sonic games usually included alternate gameplay styles is no reason to assume that the boost is solely to blame for their inclusion. If you honestly look back at the history of 3D Sonic games since the Dreamcast era you'll find that alternate gameplay styles have always features fairly prominently. I still think that Sonic Adventure is by far the biggest example of this, including no less than six different gameplay styles in the game; everything since then has been more restrained, with maybe only a couple of new experimental gameplay styles in each Sonic game. The drive for innovative gameplay ideas is a constant with the Sonic franchise, even as the boost is now once again forming the foundation of Sonic's 3D gameplay.

Exactly. I don't understand why fans let non-boost games slide with padding while the boost games are treated as guilty of that trend. 

Spoiler

And no, the "because they were fun" reason doesn't count.

 

[RictalRose0]

Seriously I get Sega of Japan has made mistakes but you're assuming Whitehead is gonna bust in into some corporate headquarters and become CEO or senior advisor or producer/executive, something like that. And then he's gonna be like, a god of game developing even though all you know of him is that he worked on Freedom Planet and has done ports of Sonic games and ROM hacks. I don't doubt he's skilled but dude, you should calm down a little about Sega of Japan. There's skilled people working there as well, if you don't like the chain of command then I doubt the executives will just give their position and put all their trust on Whitehead anyway.

[PickleBrows]

12 minutes ago, Kintor said:

I think you're greatly underestimating the significance of Sonic the Hedgehog as an AAA franchise. You've spent too long witnessing mediocre Sonic Booms spinoffs and no idea what Sonic Team is truly capable of now they have access to new cutting-edge hardware. After all, Sega is one of the largest and most powerful corporations in Japan, while Sonic Team remains one of their start development teams thanks in no small part to the ongoing success of Phantasy Star Online 2 and the enduring legacy of Sonic Generations as the last great Sonic. Let lesser teams and the Indy scene worry about finding people worthy of the tools available, Sonic Team already has all it needs and the backing of Sega's vast resources to make boost games like Sonic Forces possible with relative ease.

I'm not underestimating anyone here, and I'm not overly sure how the Sonic Boom stuff factors into this but fair enough.

I can only stress this point again. No amount of cutting-edge technology, status, money or whatever else can possibly negate the human labour required to make content.

If the boost gameplay was "unsustainable" in 2008, by your own logic we should have already seen vast improvements by now. It's nine years later and instead of seeing the benefits of this "cutting-edge technology" we're seeing the same issue of the modern Sonic gameplay needing additional support. Not only have they got Classic Sonic in here again, they've gone and added a third gameplay style on top.

We're not seeing technology aid the development of this style, if anything the issue's pretty much gone in a straight line since the beginning.

2 minutes ago, Kintor said:

t still remains that Sega and in turn Sonic Team have ample resources to produce the boost gameplay, with the potential to easily go beyond what was achieved in Sonic Generations thanks to exponential technological advancement.

Unless you're an insider on all of this, I'm curious about this knowledge you seem to have about the technology behind SEGA's door. Do you have any specific examples of "exponential technological advancement" that prove a purely modern Sonic boost game is suddenly much more viable than it was during Generations? Why wasn't a similar leap possible between Unleashed and Generations?

There's the "Hedgehog Engine 2" which improves their global illumination and whatnot but that doesn't cover core game design. What specific technology are we missing out on that's going to make man-hours a non issue for Sonic Forces?

[Kintor]

1 minute ago, Joy said:

I'm not underestimating anyone here, and I'm not overly sure how the Sonic Boom stuff factors into this but fair enough.

I can only stress this point again. No amount of cutting-edge technology, status, money or whatever else can possibly negate the human labour required to make content.

Honestly, I don't accept your limitations on what is actually possible both now and in the near future. The story of the coming decades will be how technology increasingly replaces human labour in even the most surprisingly high ladders of society. It will redefine what it means to be a contributing citizen in a modern nation and it might even kick start a civil war or two. But that's a topic for another thread...

Anyway, the salient point here is technology makes game development easier, even in terms of creative level design. There are countless ways that Sonic Team can make the process more efficient from the adoption of more middleware tools to the subtle use of procedurally generated landscapes for the backgrounds, as just a couple of examples off the top of my head. More importantly though are the tools that don't exist yet but will still be in Sonic Team's hands in just a few short years, all thanks the countless possibilities accelerating technological development will bring. To support new boost levels seems a trivial task, it was possible in 2008 and it's only going to get even better from here on out in 2017.

[RictalRose0]

This is why we need more info, or else it gets like this. Jeez.