Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[RLS Legacy]

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

We knew it was a Sonic game and Sonic Team was making it and that's pretty solid reason to be pessimistic about it considering their track records. Everything that's since been revealed has just reinforced that justified distrust.

And it's not like it's just blind hatedom going on. When people see a game that looks genuinely good and that matches their interests it gets plenty of respect, just look at Mania. But nothing about Forces looks good to me at all, and a lot of it is exactly the mistakes I was expecting them to make based on their past history.

Again, this argument seems to be predicated around the idea that Generations was bad, and is therefore a poor formula to replicate.

It wasn't.

[Adamis]

I'm interested in the game, I love the boost gameplay, Green Hill doesn't bother me that much, I'm curious about the new character, but this is it : I'm optimistic about Sonic Forces. Certainly one of the rare people here having that mindset but I don't care.

[Zippo]

5 minutes ago, Josh said:

Expecting improvement and getting what largely seems to be the same thing or worse is not a good look for a sequel in general. That's not just a "Crazy sonic fan" thing. 

But isn't Mania essentially doing that exact same thing? There's even old levels in the game itself. There's nothing innovative about it at all. It's just happens to be a retro throwback that looks incredible. No one seems to care when it comes to that. 

[Shiny Gems]

Just now, Adamis said:

I'm interested in the game, I love the boost gameplay, Green Hill doesn't bother me that much, I'm curious about the new character, but this is it : I'm optimistic about Sonic Forces. Certainly one of the rare people here having that mindset but I don't care.

I feel the same way, actually. I am excited for Forces, and I also don't care about Green Hill reappearing, and I will surely love the modern levels..I am interested in the new character as well. That said, I think some people are jumping the gun here, since we have seen a limited amount of footage only and we have not seen much of the levels aside from what we did see. Who knows? Maybe the later levels will be even better.

[Pawn]

1 minute ago, Zippo said:

It's just how a good sectoon of this fanbase "works'. We get something new and experimental, many people complain endlessly about how they need to stick to a fornula. We get something more traditional and refined, many people complain endlessly about how they need to stop rehashing and start trying something new. There's virtually nothing Sega can do at this point but try their best to make the best game they can.   Because let's be honest, this fanbase is notorious for a reason.

Even if we pretend for a moment that the fanbase for any franchise works like a hive mind, it's no wonder that this one is so fractured and easily riled up when Sega has consistently found a way to disappoint it for the majority of two decades.

[RLS Legacy]

I think the key and central problem with the Sonic fanbase is this:

For so many years, SEGA has tried such a wide variety of playstyles, genres and control schemes for the series, and so many fans have hopped onto the franchise at different points in time, that everyone has their own personal favourite, and therefore their own personal view of what the series 'should be'. 

When in truth it hasn't really had a solid identity since the Adventure series. The recent string of boost games is the closest it's come to consistency, but Lost World broke that.

[Wraith]

5 minutes ago, Zippo said:

But isn't Mania essentially doing that exact same thing? There's nothing innovative about it at all. It's just happens to be a retro throwback that looks incredible. 

Sonic Mania is a huge step up visually and introducing new zones, gimmicks, mechanics and features that compliment what was already there. Sonic Forces can't even 100% clear the "At least look better than Generations" hurdle. Classic looks like it has the same issues. Modern looks like it has the same issues. Instead of fixing any issues they're adding a style focused around a new character instead. It's not hard to understand why people are upset if people turn off whatever part of their brain is causing them to assume people who disagree with them are automatically unreasonable. Shutting down criticism is a good way for Sonic to go nowhere in the future, and that's fine for those of you who are just happy with him...existing, I guess.

3 minutes ago, Pawn said:

Even if we pretend for a moment that the fanbase for any franchise works like a hive mind, it's no wonder that this one is so fractured and easily riled up when Sega has consistently found a way to disappoint it for the majority of two decades.

Whatever Sega is doing is no excuse for people to get too invested into a video game, imo.

[Nepenthe]

3 minutes ago, Zippo said:

But isn't Mania essentially doing that exact same thing? There's even old levels in the game itself. There's nothing innovative about it at all. It's just happens to be a retro throwback that looks incredible. No one seems to care when it comes to that. 

I mean, I care about the lack of innovation and just how boring it kinda looks in the year of Horizon, BotW, Nier, and hell, even fucking Overcooked, and I've said for years that all classic games are basically the same shit. But I also realize that I'm that rare person on SSMB who's become completely intolerable to that gameplay style and the overeager fandom surrounding it and thus has nothing to add to the discussion about games like Mania, so I keep my mouth shut about it, aside from now, of course.

[Kachopper9]

The Sonic fandom: We don't know what we want and complain about almost anything. 

Okay joking aside, This is mostly a result of the amount of gameplay styles and changes in past games. Everyone has what they want.  People are also upset due to how little we have, and what we have looks... eh?

And then there's the "new Character" Which we have no idea about. If the character and the gameplay style are both unlikable, then we get made. I still don't trust that silhouette to actually be truthful.  The interviews said "Unexpected" as well, not "new", which I want to point out.

[pppp]

1 minute ago, Zippo said:

But isn't Mania essentially doing that exact same thing? There's nothing innovative about it at all. It's just happens to be a retro throwback that looks incredible. 

Sonic Mania, while it is indeed a retro throwback, it still has cool fresh idea like the gun from Mirage Saloon and even the reused stages were given so much effort and love to breathe new life into them.

Forces Green Hill looks flat visually and the level design already shows bad traits.

[Jango]

People have been complaining about the inaccuracies and subsequent underwhelming nature of Generations' Classic Sonic and accompanying level design since we saw gameplay footage, and probably moreso when Sega released those limited run kiosks of the GHZ demo. Even if games get retroactive backlash or praise, the one thing that remains constant is that basically any attempt at a Classic-playing experience that isn't a direct retread of the actual physics in the original titles is inevitably a pale imitation that will simply never be as fun.

 

I remember when the first gameplay released by SEGA had Classic Sonic, God forbid, UNCURLING after being launched in the air by a slope. People went nuts and they fixed it. In any case, Classic Sonic gameplay in Gens was never even close to the Mega Drive games... but back then most people excused Sonic Team because it was better than Sonic 4 and at least a good try. But now that Mania has pixel perfect physics, oh boy, it's gonna be shameful

[Zippo]

4 minutes ago, Pawn said:

Even if we pretend for a moment that the fanbase for any franchise works like a hive mind, it's no wonder that this one is so fractured and easily riled up when Sega has consistently found a way to disappoint it for the majority of two decades.

Yeah, I agree there. Sonic Team have just proven themselves incapable of pleasing a very good number of Sonic fans at this point, and it's all their faults. Sonic has a major identity crisis and it looks like they have no clue how to fix it. 

[Pawn]

Just now, Josh said:

Whatever Sega is doing is no excuse for people to get too invested into a video game, imo.

No, but I don't see anything wrong with complaints about "nostalgia pandering", "playing it safe" or any potentially bad but fresh ideas. I'm not advocating tying your self-worth to the series or getting personal.

[Voyant]

Someone just give the series to Taxman already...

[Nepenthe]

Just now, Voyant said:

Someone just give the series to Taxman already...

I like somewhat moving in 3D though.

[Dee Dude]

I know some of you are getting a little sick of the "don't get mad over 10/20/30 seconds" argument but it's kinda unfair to compare Forces to Mania considering we've seen so much of Mania and so little of Forces.

I'm kinda stating the obvious here but still.

[Diogenes]

23 minutes ago, Zippo said:

It's just how a good sectoon of this fanbase "works'. We get something new and experimental, many people complain endlessly about how they need to stick to a fornula. We get something more traditional and refined, many people complain endlessly about how they need to stop rehashing and start trying something new. There's virtually nothing Sega can do at this point but try their best to make the best game they can.   Because let's be honest, this fanbase is notorious for a reason.

I'm honestly getting tired of this attitude, because it's missing the point entirely. The problem isn't that the ideas are new or old in themselves, the problem is that the ideas are bad and/or implemented badly. Their new ideas tend to be so far off from the series' core identity (if that's even a thing we can pretend still exists) that they may as well belong to an entirely different series. Their old ideas are just shallow, surface-level details without the skillful design that made them work in the first place. And whether new or old, many of their ideas have just been designed and programmed poorly. Making one anniversary game where "Classic Sonic" and his gameplay comes back? Acceptable. Halfassing that gameplay so it seems like a cheap imitation of the games it's trying to evoke instead of a celebration of them? Bad, regardless of whether it's new or old. Trying to use the exact same nostalgia pulls with only one main series game between them? Bad, regardless of new or old. Showing absolutely no improvements to the already weak game design of the last time they did this? Bad, regardless of new or old.

21 minutes ago, RLS Legacy said:

Again, this argument seems to be predicated around the idea that Generations was bad, and is therefore a poor formula to replicate.

It wasn't.

I disagree. I think Generations was little more than cheap thrills and cheap nostalgia, neither of which are solid enough to base another game on.

19 minutes ago, Zippo said:

But isn't Mania essentially doing that exact same thing? There's even old levels in the game itself. There's nothing innovative about it at all. It's just happens to be a retro throwback that looks incredible. No one seems to care when it comes to that. 

First off, basically no one is happy about the returning levels, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who wouldn't gladly trade them for brand new levels. Second, Mania may not be the most innovative game in the series, but there's a massive difference between reviving and adding to the style of game that made Sonic an icon in the first place after over two decades of neglect, and shamelessly copying a recent modest success with no apparent improvements.

3 minutes ago, Dee Dude said:

I know some of you are getting a little sick of the "don't get mad over 10/20/30 seconds" argument but it's kinda unfair to compare Forces to Mania considering we've seen so much of Mania and so little of Forces.

Even comparing the first 10 seconds we saw of Mania to what we've seen of Forces, Mania comes out way ahead.

e: also I think it says a lot that Mania had the confidence to lead with its gameplay while all we got out of Forces at first was a teaser cutscene, and even now we've probably seen less gameplay footage of it than we did of Mania in its first trailer alone.

[Voyant]

7 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I like somewhat moving in 3D though.

I do too, but the point is I rather give the series to an inspired team of people than one that is clearly is uninspired.

I've seen FAN games in 3D more inspired than what being shown so far.

Also gotta love how Takashi Iizuka is now in the same camp as Tod Howard at this point.

[Dee Dude]

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Even comparing the first 10 seconds we saw of Mania to what we've seen of Forces, Mania comes out way ahead.

Any particular reason why? 

[pppp]

6 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I like somewhat moving in 3D though.

The guy who made Sonic Utopia then?

[Zippo]

9 minutes ago, Josh said:

Sonic Mania is a huge step up visually and introducing new zones, gimmicks, mechanics and features that compliment what was already there. Sonic Forces can't even 100% clear the "At least look better than Generations" hurdle. Classic looks like it has the same issues. Modern looks like it has the same issues. Instead of fixing any issues they're adding a style focused around a new character instead. It's not hard to understand why people are upset if people turn off whatever part of their brain is causing them to assume people who disagree with them are automatically unreasonable. Shutting down criticism is a good way for Sonic to go nowhere in the future, and that's fine for those of you who are just happy with him...existing, I guess.

How do we know for sure that all of this can't be said for Forces? This has all been gleamed from what? A minute of footage? We haven't even seen a full playthrough of a stage yet. The game isn't due until the holidays, yes? I'm not saying Forces will be a great, or even a good game, or even that all of this criticism won't be valid in the coming months, but a lot of this just seems like assumptions and leaps in logic. 

[Nepenthe]

3 minutes ago, Voyant said:

I do too, but the point is I rather give the series to an inspired team of people than one that is clearly is uninspired.

I'd rather give it to a team of people who know what they're doing and have the same ideals that I do.

Because, you know, DICE are an inspired and quality team too but I don't know if anyone here actually wants a Sonic shooter or a first person parkour game.

[Shiny Gems]

1 minute ago, Zippo said:

How do we know for sure that all of this can't be said for Forces? This has all been gleamed from what? A minute of footage? We haven't even seen a full playthrough of a stage yet. The game isn't due until the holidays, yes? I'm not saying Forces will be a great, or even a good game, or even that all of this criticism won't be valid in the coming months, but a lot of this just seems like assumptions and leaps in logic. 

Agreed. Some of us are just being overly hasty, quick to judge and perhaps impatient and of course assumptive about things when we have not seen much of. For all we know, the game's levels could be even better than what little we have seen. A few seconds and such won't be enough to properly judge the game well. It is still being developed and won't be released until the holidays as you said, after all. If things remain unchanged by the time we see more and proper footage to judge the game off of, we'll have more legit reasons to complain. But for now, we just need to wait patiently. A few and such seconds of gameplay is not the whole game, you all know.

[Dee Dude]

13 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

e: also I think it says a lot that Mania had the confidence to lead with its gameplay while all we got out of Forces at first was a teaser cutscene, and even now we've probably seen less gameplay footage of it than we did of Mania in its first trailer alone.

"Confidence" huh? Gee, I wonder if it had anything to do with the fact that Forces is a much bigger game let alone being a new mainline game in years. Mania was clearly just a treat, a fantastic treat sure. But Forces could really suprised as much as we don't expect it.

After all, there's no proper trailer Forces now is there?

Not very fair from what I see...

[Wraith]

5 minutes ago, Zippo said:

How do we know for sure that all of this can't be said for Forces? This has all been gleamed from what? A minute of footage? We haven't even seen a full playthrough of a stage yet. The game isn't due until the holidays, yes? I'm not saying Forces will be a great, or even a good game, or even that all of this criticism won't be valid in the coming months, but a lot of this just seems like assumptions and leaps in logic. 

I'm judging the game based off of what I'm seeing and what we know from past games. I'm open to having my mind changed.  I just don't expect it.