Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Diogenes]

Just now, Dee Dude said:

Any particular reason why? 

Looking at the literal first 10 seconds we saw of Mania we could already see great pixel art, stylish aesthetics, more solid looking movement than most Sonic games, and some fun/creative level gimmicks. And going beyond that literal 10 seconds, we know we're dealing with the work of a talented team who are well experienced with exactly this kind of game, we see that we're getting 3 playable characters that people actually want to play as, and a cool new move. What have we seen of Forces? A grimdark teaser trailer, shameless reuse of Classic Sonic, seemingly unchanged boost gameplay, seemingly unchanged Gens Classic gameplay, wild aesthetic swings, and a worryingly generic looking new character.

6 minutes ago, Zippo said:

How do we know for sure that all of this can't be said for Forces? This has all been gleamed from what? A minute of footage? We haven't even seen a full playthrough of a stage yet. The game isn't due until the holidays, yes? I'm not saying Forces will be a great, or even a good game, or even that all of this criticism won't be valid in the coming months, but a lot of this just seems like assumptions and leaps in logic. 

This same thing gets said for every Sonic game anymore. Has it ever actually worked out?

"Confidence" huh? Gee, I wonder if it had anything to do with the fact that Forces is a much bigger game let alone being a new mainline game in years.

I don't see how that's relevant. Nothing prevented them from showing gameplay unless they literally didn't have it in a presentable state at the time, in which case they probably shouldn't have been in such a rush to reveal it.

[Voyant]

7 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I'd rather give it to a team of people who know what they're doing and have the same ideals that I do.

Because, you know, DICE are an inspired and quality team too but I don't know if anyone here actually wants a Sonic shooter or a first person parkour game.

That's taking what I said out of context and you know it.

Like Taxman would make the series into a shooter...come on now. 

But for the sake of adressing ya...I'd say Taxman's team falls in the same ideals as most of the fanbase in that we someone to make something of legitamate quality and with some love put into it. 

I haven't felt the "love" from Sonic Team in a long while...not since Unleashed. 

[Nepenthe]

1 minute ago, Dee Dude said:

"Confidence" huh? Gee, I wonder if it had anything to do with the fact that Forces is a much bigger game let alone being a new mainline game in years.

Mania was clearly just a treat, a fantastic treat sure. But Forces could really suprised as much as we don't expect it.

After all, there's no proper trailer Forces now is there?

Not very fair from what I see...

The first footage we got from Breath of the Wild- one of the biggest games in recent memory- was stuff being rendered in-engine, showcasing more or less what we'd get from the final game.

No excuses. D8<

[SSF1991]

45 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

People have been complaining about the inaccuracies and subsequent underwhelming nature of Generations' Classic Sonic and accompanying level design since we saw gameplay footage, and probably moreso when Sega released those limited run kiosks of the GHZ demo.

Huh? I didn't really see many complaints about Generations gameplay when the game came out. I mean, people were frustrated at the lack of DLC and the writing felt like a missed opportunity, but it was a very small minority that had issues with the gameplay itself. Even in 2013, when Sonic Forces began production, I didn't really see much of the way of negativity. I mean, to be fair there was the feeling that SEGA needed to move on from the boost after Generations, but that was exactly what we ended up getting. It's not like we haven't had anything but Boost games for the past 5 years.

31 minutes ago, Pawn said:

Even if we pretend for a moment that the fanbase for any franchise works like a hive mind, it's no wonder that this one is so fractured and easily riled up when Sega has consistently found a way to disappoint it for the majority of two decades.

Like...I get Sonic Mania may have upped the bar in terms of accuracy of Classic Sonic physics (which makes sense), but that's just not something I expect IMO. As long as the controls feel good, as in Sonic's not sliding around, the buttons work, he doesn't feel awkward in some way, then that's fine with me.

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We knew it was a Sonic game and Sonic Team was making it and that's pretty solid reason to be pessimistic about it considering their track records. Everything that's since been revealed has just reinforced that justified distrust.

What? Just...what? Sonic Team has made good games before, not just bad ones...

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And it's not like it's just blind hatedom going on.

I never said it was blind. Questionable, but not blind.

38 minutes ago, Josh said:

Expecting improvement and getting what largely seems to be the same thing or worse is not a good look for a sequel in general. That's not just a "Crazy sonic fan" thing. 

No, but when people keep changing their minds on what those improvements should be every 2 years, that's saying much on its own. Just 2 years ago, Generations was considered an amazing game, along with the Adventure titles and Colors. Pontac and Graff were considered great writers pre-Lost World. Unleashed was considered a meh game. People wanted Sonic games to be more consistent.

Like...people can't make up their minds. And this isn't even counting how people have the mentality of "if this game isn't exactly like this down to the most miniscule thing, or it doesn't appeal to what I specifically want, then it's automatically bad and more than just not being my thing". Or that people have been blatantly ignoring things that we were told about Forces (like Classic Sonic levels having a "twist" for starters, or that Iizuka re-confirmed in Famitsu that Forces is a part of Sonic's anniversary). Or that people are speculating about things that weren't even confirmed (i.e. charcter creation) as a possibility, let alone a thing in the game. Or that people are calling a character bland on the basis alone of just a shadow. Or that somehow a booster before a shuttle loop is the worst thing ever for Classic gameplay and makes the game horrible. Or that people are acting like their disappointment in Forces is a new thing when they weren't thrilled about it for over a year and were judgemental about the game before there was anything to judge. Simply put: I don't even know what people want anymore.

23 minutes ago, Pawn said:

No, but I don't see anything wrong with complaints about "nostalgia pandering", "playing it safe" or any potentially bad but fresh ideas.

Because it's not the complaints that people like me are baffled by. it's the argument for them.

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I'm honestly getting tired of this attitude, because it's missing the point entirely. The problem isn't that the ideas are new or old in themselves, the problem is that the ideas are bad and/or implemented badly.

Because this changes every 2 years. You can't call an idea bad or implented badly, then suddenly shift on this 2 years later when a new Sonic game is announced. Sonic games take 3-4 years to make. "Opinions changing over time" isn't really a valid argument when this is not something SEGA can rely on if they want to make a Sonic game. They can't just simply flip a switch every time people suddenly decide a game is bad and suddenly have this particular problem halfway into a game's development. If you want things like "nostalgia pandering" and "playing it safe" to be a thing of the past, stick to this so that way SEGA knows "okay, this is what they want and don't want".

[Gemster312]

Imagine if Sonic Mania ONLY showed 10 seconds of running through Green Hill Zone. The like exact same Green Hill (not the new sections) that everyone recognizes from the first game. Everyone would blow up furious, people still do knowing Green Hill is even in that game.

10 seconds is not enough to show anything valuable. Just look at how pissed off so many people are at the Flying Battery reveal, even though it shows NOTHING of the new, since it shows the old, people flame and moan and complain.

We got 10 seconds of classic gameplay from Sonic Forces. Also very early early beta footage. You can't compare "Sonic Mania" is way ahead, because when they showed Sonic Mania, they showed LOTS of more footage, and they focused the footage on what's new and unique, NOT of what is known.

The Sonic Forces footage shows us Classic Sonic just run right in a Green Hill (Sandy variation) zone. Nothing literally happens. The rest of the game might be super innovative, they just aren't ready to show it.

Calm down everyone, it's like being able to judge the whole Harry Potter series based off a single random line in the middle of the third book. Pointless, and mis-directed.

[Chris Knopps]

Hmm... So have we reached the point where folks could sue SEGA for false advertising since they said this wasn't Generations 2 yet we have Green Hill and Classic again and the plot seems a bit the same of space/time travel gong on since Classic is back in the present day with Modern again...?

...I'll take a check for $5000 Tom.

That bit of hyucking aside, I still stick with my claim that the issue is not replacing old staff with new staff. They might be changing faces in charge of the games but they are returning faces, not entirely new.

This is where Sonic Mania is doing things right. Entirely new staff, entirely new talent, much younger teams with plenty of energy and enthusiasm.

This is where Sonic Forces is doing it wrong. Doing a blast from the past direction with both content in the game and the people behind the project. Wipe out Mr. Iizuka and the entirety of Sonic Team that have surpassed a certain time frame of being there and we'll be getting Mania titles from Sonic Team too.

Until then, I'm sticking with the fresh, young, inspired SEGA of America team. All the aging has-been East can do is continue screwing up due to obsessing over their golden years in both career and life and being terrified of abandoning said years.

[Nepenthe]

1 minute ago, Voyant said:

That's taking what I said out of context and you know it.

Like Taxman would make the series into a shooter...come on now. 

But for the sake of adressing ya...I'd say Taxman's team falls in the same ideals as most of the fanbase in that we someone to make something of legitamate quality and with some love put into it. 

I'm not taking what you said out of context. I'm using a metaphor to explain why I don't want to hand the series over to any team of individuals whose niche' is in recreating 16-bit gameplay styles I stopped being hyped for a decade ago.

Also, I want a 3D game like Adventure again. I don't care how much love and quality is put into something that's not that. Like, Mania's gonna be great. Alright. Fuck that do for me doe?

[Dee Dude]

Again, it has been a while since we've gotten a new Sonic game.

Suprises exist for a reason you know...

[Voyant]

7 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I'm not taking what you said out of context. I'm using a metaphor to explain why I don't want to hand the series over to any team of individuals whose niche' is in recreating 16-bit gameplay styles I stopped being hyped for a decade ago.

Also, I want a 3D game like Adventure again. I don't care how much love and quality is put into something that's not that. Like, Mania's gonna be great. Alright. Fuck that do for me doe?

There has been plenty of cases in the past in gaming where a new team of inspired people came in a did some magic on a series, but keeping to the core ideals of what people like from the franchise.

You can make an argument that Breath of The Wild is a good example of that or 343 coming in to take over the Halo franchise. Sometimes those teams didn't have much experaince previously and did just fine doing research and caring about basic game design.

Hell Nintendo did this with Zelda already previously with Oracle of Ages and Seasons, that was made by a side team from capcom.

[Osmium]

2 minutes ago, Dee Dude said:

Again, it has been a while since we've gotten a new Sonic game.

Suprises exist for a reason you know...

Wouldn't the issue of it being a while make them want to show off gameplay first then? You know, start off on the best foot? Show that the long wait was worth it? 

[Nepenthe]

10 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

Huh? I didn't really see many complaints about Generations gameplay when the game came out. I mean, people were frustrated at the lack of DLC and the writing felt like a missed opportunity, but it was a very small minority that had issues with the gameplay itself. Even in 2013, when Sonic Forces began production, I didn't really see much of the way of negativity. I mean, to be fair there was the feeling that SEGA needed to move on from the boost after Generations, but that was exactly what we ended up getting. It's not like we haven't had anything but Boost games for the past 5 years.

On SSMB people were serious about pointing out the same issues with automation and a lack of robust physical prowess compared to the old classic Sonic games. This may have been different elsewhere because- given how much Sonic 4 wasn't all that hated- people don't give a damn about actual technical accuracy so much as they do whether or not a game gives them good feelings like they had in the old days. But the criticism was definitely there, and it doesn't do one favors to act like it sprung out of nowhere.

6 minutes ago, Voyant said:

There have been plenty of cases in the past in gaming where a new team of inspired people came in a did some magic on a series, but keeping to the core ideals of what people like from 3D sonics.

You can make an argument that Breath of The Wild is a good example of that.

Breath of the Wild is a complete shuttering of OoT's gameplay style by adopting a modern open world scheme coupled with some unique, common sense physics systems and an extreme yet refreshing non-linearity to the proceedings.

Sonic Mania is a complete embrace of the same ol' same ol' classic Sonic gameplay we've seen a bunch of times across the originals, ports, and fan games with some new gimmicks and art assets thrown in there.

They're not the same in terms of scope or intent. And indeed, as a result I'd rather give Sonic to the BotW team well before I considered Taxman.

[Wraith]

12 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

 

No, but when people keep changing their minds on what those improvements should be every 2 years, that's saying much on its own. Just 2 years ago, Generations was considered an amazing game, along with the Adventure titles and Colors. Pontac and Graff were considered great writers pre-Lost World. Unleashed was considered a meh game. People wanted Sonic games to be more consistent.

It's not as clear cut as people randomly deciding they want something else every 2 years. Nepenthe has been giving this "Make another montherfucking god damn SONIC ADVENTURE GAME" thing for about as long as I've known her. Same with Diogenes and the classics and how Gens doesn't represent them accurately. A lot of people haven't changed their minds about what they want at all.  Some people settled for Sonic Generations but didn't want something like it again. Some people liked Sonic Generations back then but don't want more of it now. Some people liked Sonic Generations, but liked Lost World more and wanted some more of that. Opinions change. This is all normal. The Zelda fanbase didn't like Majora's Mask back when it came out but it's considered the golden child now with the opposite happening to games like Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. 

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And this isn't even counting how people have the mentality of "if this game isn't exactly like this down to the most miniscule thing, or it doesn't appeal to what I specifically want, then it's automatically bad and more than just not being my thing". Or that people have been blatantly ignoring things that we were told about Forces (like Classic Sonic levels having a "twist" for starters, or that Iizuka re-confirmed in Famitsu that Forces is a part of Sonic's anniversary). Or that people are speculating about things that weren't even confirmed (i.e. charcter creation) as a possibility, let alone a thing in the game. Or that people are calling a character bland on the basis alone of just a shadow. Or that somehow a booster before a shuttle loop is the worst thing ever for Classic gameplay and makes the game horrible. Or that people are acting like their disappointment in Forces is a new thing when they weren't thrilled about it for over a year and were judgemental about the game before there was anything to judge. Simply put: I don't even know what people want anymore.

A lot of the things you're citing are legit problems and concerns people have with the game. What people want is for the problems to be fixed or to have their worries eased. 

[Voyant]

5 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

 And indeed, as a result I'd rather give Sonic to the BotW team well before I considered Taxman.

If only.

I don't care who it is honestly, I just don't want it to be Sonic Team.

[Diogenes]

5 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

What? Just...what? Sonic Team has made good games before, not just bad ones...

They used to make good games. It's been an awful long time, though, and things have changed since then. I can't give them credit for 3&K as if today's Sonic Team is responsible for that game.

5 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

No, but when people keep changing their minds on what those improvements should be every 2 years, that's saying much on its own.

Ok you realize that this is, more often than not, different groups of people making different, conflicting complaints?

5 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

Pontac and Graff were considered great writers pre-Lost World.

That sentiment really only lasted partway through Colors.

5 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

Or that people have been blatantly ignoring things that we were told about Forces (like Classic Sonic levels having a "twist" for starters

Talk is cheap, and Sonic Team lost my trust a long time ago. If they have a twist worth a damn, they should put it out there to be seen and to be judged. 

5 minutes ago, Gemster312 said:

Imagine if Sonic Mania ONLY showed 10 seconds of running through Green Hill Zone.

You notice they didn't, though? No one is forcing Sonic Team to only show small snippets of Forces. They don't deserve trust by default, they need to show that they have a game worth buying, and so far, they're failing.

[Gemster312]

Okay is everyone just ignorant to the fact that just because Classic Sonic is here doesn't mean it's a Generations 2?

Sonic Generations: Celebrating 20 years of Sonic. Revisit old stages across the years and re-experience the stages using modern and classic sonic.

Sonic Forces: Could be LITERALLY ANYTHING, it just happens to use Modern Sonic, Classic Sonic, and Green Hill zone makes an appearance.

People really really loved Sonic Generations. Not Sonic Lost Worlds. So wouldn't it make sense to use the formula that everyone loved? It doesn't have to be a sequel. It doesn't have to follow the same rules of going back to old levels but some can be included (i.e. Green Hill just because its iconic and its what Sonic is associated with).

Who says they are bringing back Classic Sonic again for NOSTALGIA? That's honestly been bothering the hell outta me. I personally don't believe that because Classic Sonic can co-exist WITHOUT BEING A NOSTALGIA FACTOR. If his gameplay works in these titles, it's just another method of playing the game. It's like saying Sonic Mania shouldn't exist because we already had Sonic 4 (a callback to the "classics") and Sonic Generations.

No, Sonic Mania exists because the classic formula works and it's being used BECAUSE IT WORKS not because its nostalgic. Yes the rehashed zones is nostalgic, but Studiopolis isn't nostalgic. It's not ALL about nostalgia.

If classic sonic used to work, then modern sonic evolved but it split the fanbase, bringing classic sonic BACK TO LIFE ISN'T NOSTALGIA, ITS BRINGING A SYSTEM THAT WORKED BACK INTO ACTION.

Classic Sonic was nostalgia for Sonic Generations (that's the whole premise of the game).

Classic Sonic is not a nostalgic factor for these titles though. He's here because he's a gameplay aspect that people love to play and have fun with.

It's like when the Twinky business went away and everyone lost their shit. If it just came back for a brief time, that's nostalgia. And they could advertise it as "its back!"

But if they suddenly are re-igniting the flame and its back for good, not just like a month, then suddenly it's no longer NOSTALGIA, it's bringing back something that works. It's bringing back something people love.

I plead, stop saying Classic Sonic = Nostalgia. He's not nostalgia anymore. He's a character that was left behind and has now been revived in the modern games. Treat him as the sonic we used to love, not as a "tool for nostalgia". God im starting to hate that word. Nostalgia. Psh...

[Zippo]

19 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'm honestly getting tired of this attitude, because it's missing the point entirely. The problem isn't that the ideas are new or old in themselves, the problem is that the ideas are bad and/or implemented badly. Their new ideas tend to be so far off from the series' core identity (if that's even a thing we can pretend still exists) that they may as well belong to an entirely different series. Their old ideas are just shallow, surface-level details without the skillful design that made them work in the first place. And whether new or old, many of their ideas have just been designed and programmed poorly. Making one anniversary game where "Classic Sonic" and his gameplay comes back? Acceptable. Halfassing that gameplay so it seems like a cheap imitation of the games it's trying to evoke instead of a celebration of them? Bad, regardless of whether it's new or old. Trying to use the exact same nostalgia pulls with only one main series game between them? Bad, regardless of new or old. Showing absolutely no improvements to the already weak game design of the last time they did this? Bad, regardless of new or old.

No, it isn't "missing the point". I'm talking about the revisionist heel turn many people have taken on the boost fornula. 7 years ago, it was seen by many as the way to get Sonic right in 3D after the monstrosity that was Sonic 2006. Many people, myself included, complained about them throwing it all tbe window with Lost World and many, at least from what I've seen, celebrated it's apparent return this past July. I just find it very odd how many people (not talking about this forum, there are many logical, well meaning folks here.) now want it gone, is just very odd to me. I've been a very vocal critic of 3D Sonic since the very beginning. I'm of the opinion that the Adventure games suck outright, and always have. They're ambitious games that aged terribly, and were archaic and dated before they were even released.  Many of the ideas implemented sucked. I do agree that SEGA desperately needs to stop playing this nostalgia card. It is tiring and i am sick of it. 

[Kellan]

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

They used to make good games. It's been an awful long time, though, and things have changed since then. I can't give them credit for 3&K as if today's Sonic Team is responsible for that game.

Wait, are you saying that Sonic 3 & Knuckles was the last Sonic Team game that was even good?

[Zippo]

20 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

 

This same thing gets said for every Sonic game anymore. Has it ever actually worked out?

 

Many people would seem to think it has. Colors and Generations are well received games by fans and critics, regardless of their issues. I've used the exact same defense for Mania, since I'm still seeing "THIS IS JUST A REHASH WHERE'S THE REAL SONIC GAME!" , "LMAO SEGAS SELLING A LITERAL ROMHACK!" in places. 

[Adamis]

3 minutes ago, Kellan said:

Wait, are you saying that Sonic 3 & Knuckles was the last Sonic Team game that was even good?

Thanksfully what Diogenes said is not a fact but only his opinion ^^

There have been good Sonic games after S3K.

[Nepenthe]

7 minutes ago, Zippo said:

No, it isn't "missing the point". I'm talking about the revisionist heel turn many people have taken on the boost fornula. 7 years ago, it was seen by many as the way to get Sonic right in 3D after the monstrosity that was Sonic 2006. Many people, myself included, complained about them throwing it all tbe window with Lost World and many, at least from what I've seen, celebrated it's apparent return this past July. I just find it very odd how many people (not talking about this forum, there are many logical, well meaning folks here.) now want it gone, is just very odd to me. I've been a very vocal critic of 3D Sonic since the very beginning. I'm of the opinion that the Adventure games suck outright, and always have. They're ambitious games that aged terribly, and were archaic and dated before they were even released.  Many of the ideas implemented sucked. I do agree that SEGA desperately needs to stop playing this nostalgia card. It is tiring and i am sick of it. 

Technology and technological art are fleeting.

Times change, and in an age of unprecedented access to international content and entertainment options at an even more unprecedented speed, they change faster than anyone will be able to expect.

With the odd exception of that one work every blue moon that is perfect and universal in almost every way, what was cool and shiny 10, 5, and even 1 year ago isn't cool and shiny anymore. Boost gameplay doesn't fit the exception as people on SSMB have been tearing apart its flaws for almost a decade now.

This isn't revisionism. It's people getting bored and wanting something more robust.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Zippo said:

No, it isn't "missing the point". I'm talking about the revisionist heel turn many people have taken on the boost fornula. 7 years ago, it was seen by many as the way to get Sonic right in 3D after the monstrosity that was Sonic 2006. Many people, myself included, complained about them throwing it all tbe window with Lost World and many, at least from what I've seen, celebrated it's apparent return this past July. I just find it very odd how many people (not talking about this forum, there are many logical, well meaning folks here.) now want it gone, is just very odd to me. I've been a very vocal critic of 3D Sonic since the very beginning. I'm of the opinion that the Adventure games suck outright, and always have. They're ambitious games that aged terribly, and were archaic and dated before they were even released.  Many of the ideas implemented sucked. I do agree that SEGA desperately needs to stop playing this nostalgia card. It is tiring and i am sick of it. 

The people who want the boost gone probably either didn't like it in the first place and mostly just kept their heads down or got tired of it along the way and are now looking for something new. Neither is a "revisionist heel turn", unless you think people aren't allowed to change their minds.

Just now, Kellan said:

Wait, are you saying that Sonic 3 & Knuckles was the last Sonic Team game that was even good?

It's the last one I can call good without massive qualifications. SA is "good" if you only play as Sonic and maybe Tails and ignore how buggy it is. Unleashed is "good" if you can stomach the werehog long enough to get through it and don't think too hard about how little you're doing in the daytime stages. Colors is "good" if you can overlook that it's really a 2D game with brief 3D sections and how blocky its platforming is and how gimmicky the wisps are.

3&K is just good. Great, even. No qualifications needed.

[Kellan]

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

The people who want the boost gone probably either didn't like it in the first place and mostly just kept their heads down or got tired of it along the way and are now looking for something new. Neither is a "revisionist heel turn", unless you think people aren't allowed to change their minds.

It's the last one I can call good without massive qualifications. SA is "good" if you only play as Sonic and maybe Tails and ignore how buggy it is. Unleashed is "good" if you can stomach the werehog long enough to get through it and don't think too hard about how little you're doing in the daytime stages. Colors is "good" if you can overlook that it's really a 2D game with brief 3D sections and how blocky its platforming is and how gimmicky the wisps are.

3&K is just good. Great, even. No qualifications needed.

Well, fair enough, I guess. I mean, I disagree, but still, fair enough.

[Zippo]

Just now, Diogenes said:

The people who want the boost gone probably either didn't like it in the first place and mostly just kept their heads down or got tired of it along the way and are now looking for something new. Neither is a "revisionist heel turn", unless you think people aren't allowed to change their minds.

I guess that has to be the case. I don't really see why or how people who didn't like the boost in the first place would want it but oh well, I'm not gonna judge. Everyone's entitled to their preferences and no one has any right to say otherwise. 

[Dejimon11]

18 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

They're not the same in terms of scope or intent. And indeed, as a result I'd rather give Sonic to the BotW team well before I considered Taxman.

You really think that the breath of the wild team can do Sonic justice? 

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Dejimon11 said:

You really think that the breath of the wild team can do Sonic justice? 

I'd expect far better from them than Sonic Team, so long as they were properly motivated.