Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Zippo]

3 minutes ago, BubbleButt TV said:

Videos like this leaked and if I recall correctly, this prompted SEGA to issue a statement saying that they're fixing Sonic's physics as a result of feedback (obviously we saw what happened there...)

Honestly, I just find it really funny that someone would imply that people weren't ever on SEGA's case for the wonky physics. It's like I've stepped into a weird alternate universe.

Right? Like, the Sonic 4 marketing campaign disaster has to be the biggest shitstorm this franchise has ever endured. 

[Wraith]

I didn't mean to bring Nepenthe's rep into the argument but I kind of did when I said people found her "agreeable" so I apologize for that. 

[Nepenthe]

1 minute ago, Josh said:

I didn't mean to bring Nepenthe's rep into the argument but I kind of did when I said people found her "agreeable" so I apologize for that. 

There's a difference in context between alluding to any member's ideas as being agreeable or having some sway and outright implying "That person gets more rep than you and thus their ideas are more valid."

Former. Fine. Latter:

[Tornado]

Nepenthe? Agreeable?

 

 

IRL? huge bitch.

yoooge.

 

 

 

[azoo]

7 minutes ago, JosepMelloZSM said:

I disagree with that.

If done right it could be the selling point of the game.

The selling point for the wrong audience.

And by "wrong audience" I mean a very specific section of the Sonic fanbase (young young kids, a few brooding teenagers, a few eccentric adults). Rather than, you know, a general audience. An audience that's gonna cringe at the thought and go for the lowest blows, combining that with the other problems laden with this game's presentation to show us yet again that Sonic Team is trying so hard to cater to very specific areas that they're losing grasp of reality.

And you know what? They're right.

And that's Sonic Forces' problem. It's a game made a very specific response to multiple ultra specific sects of the fanbase at once, rather than trying to make something that's actually appealing to a grand majority. This game doesn't  have a focus, it's in fact all over the place just by basic presentation.

Why is pandering to each of these areas the decided right answer for this franchise to take? What do they even think this series is anymore? Because I seriously don't know, myself, to be honest.

[Zippo]

7 minutes ago, Azoo said:

The selling point for the wrong audience.

And by "wrong audience" I mean a very specific section of the Sonic fanbase (young young kids, a few brooding teenagers, a few eccentric adults). Rather than, you know, a general audience.

And that's Sonic Forces' problem. It's a game made a very specific response to multiple ultra specific sects of the fanbase at once, rather than trying to make something that's actually appealing to a grand majority. This game doesn't  have a focus, it's in fact all over the place just by basic presentation. Why is pandering to each of these areas the decided right answer for this franchise to take? What do they even think this series is anymore?

Because I seriously don't know, myself, to be honest.

And this is my hugest issue with Sonic in general. It has a serious identity crisis. Sonic means so many different things to so many different people. Heck, some people don't believe Sonic should have ever gone to 3D.  Fuck asking the question "What makes for a good Sonic Game?".  How about asking "What makes a Sonic game, you know, a Sonic game?"

I would love to see how many answers pop up from that. 

[Tornado]

31 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

Because I haven't seen your posts in particular? Or the posts of like 2-3 people? Even if I didn't see them, I should/would have by now. Because people would have been saying this stuff for years.

 

And, again, that's not what I saw. I don't know how much more clear I can be about that. I simply did not see that.

People were acting as nasty to each other about what constitutes a genuine classic Sonic experience when Generations was in development as they have been in this thread over Forces.

 

 

Some of the same people, in fact.

[Badnik Mechanic]

50 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

Because one, it doesn't ruin the game and isn't that big of a deal. Worth letting SEGA know? Yes. Going on about the game being bad and poor physics and stuff? No. Two, it's a booster. A blink and you'll miss it thing. It's also a thing you can jump over, if you wish. It's not automated, it's not like you have to use it

Now come on, you know this isn't true. 

If you are travelling at speed at that section for the first time, you will never avoid that booster, you will always hit it because you don't know the level layout.

It's also clearly a hand holding device as opposed to good game design, instead of allowing the player to learn about the game and figure out how to handle obstacles, they can cheaply just touch that power up and blast past the hazard.

That's not good game or level design, it's cheap and devalues the stage. It also results in the age old problem of automation and 'Am I actually playing this' if there are boosters there for what should be a relatively simple hazard to navigate.

Furthermore, even if I do master that stage, and i know it's coming, given it's position should I try to jump it, my speed will suffer upon leaving the ground or landing due to the difference in level geometry, meaning I'm penalised for actually being good at the game due to a hand holding device.

[SSF1991]

1 minute ago, Mayor D said:

Now come on, you know this isn't true. 

If you are travelling at speed at that section for the first time, you will never avoid that booster, you will always hit it because you don't know the level layout.

It depends on how you play, I suppose.

[Dejimon11]

23 minutes ago, Azoo said:

Hey, so if we can stop turning this into a discussion on e-peen status (or anti-peen or whatever the flippidyuck this is) in the Sonic community, that'd be very nice. Thanks! And by the way I don't care who started it.

(on another note it also doesn't quite matter if you saw it or not in a certain section of the community, because regardless it was very present within the center of it. both here and retro were on the case about this kind of stuff forever now; it's not like we magically started complaining without any precedent or good reasoning beforehand. other communities and groups within them were probably apathetic, and the general gaming public will literally eat anything given to them if it's wrapped in a nostalgic coating, so that should explain that tbh.)

---

Anyways, Sonic Forces looks pretty not-good!

Boost gameplay might be fine, but everything else is spelling out to be the return of everyone's favorite other gameplay style that starts with a B.. as in, you know. Bad. Bad gameplay. Yeah. I do shows wednesdays and fridays and i also do parties.

Visuals look like a downgrade from a game that came out last gen in Yet Another Green Hill Zone, but better than before in the destroyed city, so now the visuals feel extremely middling. I get taking LW's and Unleashed/Gens' style and fusing them together, but I don't think that taking the vivid detail in things like dirt and level geometry was really what people had in mind for that.

Oh yeah, and about that one thing.

The new character just vibes me that it's an awful idea, and if it's actually a create-your-character situation like it's very likely it's gonna be then I've just gotta say that this is probably their worst idea yet! As in, within the entire decade+ or more that they've been making piss poor decisions, enabling a rebirth of the deviantART era of Sonic OCs in your own hit new video game is probably the worst thing you could've possibly ever done, Sonic Team!

Maybe I sound harsh saying that, but it's true. Young kids and teenagers are okay for making fan characters (and even some adults if they have fun with it way over there), but enabling that side of the fanbase's culture to become reawakened into the face of the internet and overall video game community is opening a can of worms that absolutely should've never have been opened, enabling a whole new era of grand ridicule and embarrassment for all! Isn't life great?

I'm just saying. If it's true (and it will be, mark my words) we've hit a new low. A new low some of you may enjoy playing, sure, but one that shouldn't have happened. Much like many other things this series has done. And you know? There's just so much of stuff that shouldn't have happened that one can take. If this is anyone's last straw, then I can't blame them because it's probably mine lmao.

So yeah. Be prepared, kiddos. Here comes a storm.

(PS - If it wasn't already proven by now that boost gameplay (a fun style, make note) requires so much effort/money/time to make content for what would otherwise leave a very small, linear and short game IF NOT for padding it out with ludicrous ideas, then let this be the confirmation signal for you all.)

Yeah this is pretty much how I feel right now. Especially the with the potential 3rd character, something about it I don't know what it is just rubs me the wrong way.

[Badnik Mechanic]

5 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

It depends on how you play, I suppose.

Erm... it's a Sonic game? Isn't the idea to try and go fast?

Unless you're slowly walking through the stage... on your first go?

In fact, here is that section of the stage.

Prior to the loop you are running along a straight path along the X Axis, there is no sign at all of any additional X Axis paths on another Y plane to explore that you can reach from this default section at that moment, so... why would you be moving slowly at this point?

There are signs of a much higher path which seems to begin much much earlier in the stage, but even if you did fall from it, the path you land on is completely straight and void of any other hazards...

So the booster is there... why?

[azoo]

8 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

It depends on how you play, I suppose.

Not really much to say how you play in relation to boosters in front of any gravity-based obstacle the game throws at you, considering it's more about how much you don't play as soon as you hit one.

Boosters are a problem with Sonic. A big, bad one that started as a miniscule and harmless thing (the classics) and eventually a crutch for early 3D (in SA/SA2), only to become a way of life for some of the level / game designers with Heroes and onward. One that's been there for years and noone in the game design chair has bothered fixing.

Look at it this way: if the purpose of things like loops and other crazy upside-down / vertical stretches were meant to be an obstacle for having enough speed to pass through, what value does it have after a booster is placed immediately in front of it? Especially when the engine doesn't simply multiply the speed you're moving (ala the classics) and instead glues you to the surface at a set speed? What is that, other than game design laziness incarnate, if not just straight up automation for no reason? 

(If anyone answers "spectacle", by the way, then you have to do better than that.)

[Scar]

9 minutes ago, Azoo said:

The selling point for the wrong audience.

And by "wrong audience" I mean a very specific section of the Sonic fanbase (young young kids, a few brooding teenagers, a few eccentric adults). Rather than, you know, a general audience. An audience that's gonna cringe at the thought and go for the lowest blows, combining that with the other problems laden with this game's presentation to show us yet again that Sonic Team is trying so hard to cater to very specific areas that they're losing grasp of reality.

And you know what? They're right.

And that's Sonic Forces' problem. It's a game made a very specific response to multiple ultra specific sects of the fanbase at once, rather than trying to make something that's actually appealing to a grand majority. This game doesn't  have a focus, it's in fact all over the place just by basic presentation.

Why is pandering to each of these areas the decided right answer for this franchise to take? What do they even think this series is anymore? Because I seriously don't know, myself, to be honest.

Classic example of a management disaster tbh. I cannot imagine anyone at Sonic Team wanting to make such a confused mess of a game. For all the criticism he gets I seriously doubt even Iizuka wants to be producing such a confused game.

So then why? Why does this game exist in this form? Who thought this was a good idea? The game has no fucking identity. Feels like someone pitched it, started making it, and then was either forced to, or randomly decided of their own volition to throw in a whole bunch of other bullshit.

How? Why?

[SSF1991]

Just now, Mayor D said:

Erm... it's a Sonic game? Isn't the idea to try and go fast? Unless you're slowly walking through the stage... on your first go?

I wouldn't say slowly walking, but more like exploring to see what else the levels have to offer. Such as alternate paths. Or backtracking if you noticed something and wanted to see what it does. Or jumping over something (like boosters) to see what happens. I did that with games like Colors and Sonic 2.

I'm probably in a minority in that sense, but still. That's what I mean. =P

[JosepHenry]

 

19 minutes ago, Azoo said:

The selling point for the wrong audience.

And by "wrong audience" I mean a very specific section of the Sonic fanbase (young young kids, a few brooding teenagers, a few eccentric adults). Rather than, you know, a general audience. An audience that's gonna cringe at the thought and go for the lowest blows, combining that with the other problems laden with this game's presentation to show us yet again that Sonic Team is trying so hard to cater to very specific areas that they're losing grasp of reality.

And you know what? They're right.

And that's Sonic Forces' problem. It's a game made a very specific response to multiple ultra specific sects of the fanbase at once, rather than trying to make something that's actually appealing to a grand majority. This game doesn't  have a focus, it's in fact all over the place just by basic presentation.

Why is pandering to each of these areas the decided right answer for this franchise to take? What do they even think this series is anymore? Because I seriously don't know, myself, to be honest.

AGAIN. If done RIGHT, it could be good. 

And who should care about if is the wrong audience at this point. You guys gave up on this game already. They need new people to replace.

A lot of people LOVE CaC. Make your own Sonic character with in a official Sonic game is a really fun idea for a lot of people, and you're understmating people who like creating characters. Like, a lot. 

But still, only the most close minded people will cringe at this. And I know I will get a lot of flack for saying this, but I couldn't care less. 

[Badnik Mechanic]

Just now, SSF1991 said:

I wouldn't say slowly walking, but more like exploring to see what else the levels have to offer. Such as alternate paths. Or backtracking if you noticed something and wanted to see what it does. Or jumping over something (like boosters) to see what happens. I did that with games like Colors and Sonic 2.

But you still don't seem to get the point.

Even if you explore that area and go slow.

Why should there be an 'instant win' booster in front of what is supposed to be a gravity/momentum based object? Especially when there is nothing prior to it which prevents the player from building up the momentum to pass it?

[SSF1991]

Just now, Mayor D said:

Why should there be an 'instant win' booster in front of what is supposed to be a gravity/momentum based object? Especially when there is nothing prior to it which prevents the player from building up the momentum to pass it?

I guess because SEGA wants to let people enjoy speed there. *shrug*

Only explanation I can think of.

[Sonikko]

The booster makes even less sense since we have the Spin Dash readily available.

Besides, the objet placement says a lot about the design philosophy and how the game is going to play.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Just now, SSF1991 said:

I guess because SEGA wants to let people enjoy speed there. *shrug*

Only explanation I can think of.

In other words, automated segments.

[Tornado]

16 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

It depends on how you play, I suppose.

Sonic CD used boosters like that somewhat frequently, but that had weird level design that deliberately tried to stop you from using them effectively and momentum was kind of fucked in the game in general.

Sonic Advance 2 used boosters like that all the time, but the levels in that game were deliberately built to be sprawling alternate path speed runs and some of the boosters were meant to be dodged.

Sonic Rush Adventure used boosters like that, but that game had no momentum at all and the boosters were seemingly to compliment the trick system more than anything.

 

 

 

Those would be the only three that I can say just speed booster spam (which, fair enough, is only implied by the trailer) could really be worked around as being beneficial to the gameplay/level design.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Just now, Sonikko said:

The booster makes even less sense since we have the Spin Dash readily available.

This too.

Utterly no reason for it other than hand holding and spectacle.

[StaticMania]

2 minutes ago, Azoo said:

(If anyone answers "spectacle", by the way, then you have to do better than that.)

It used to be spectacle, as that's just how the Classics used them...any moments of spectacle in recent games have nothing to do with just speeding through a section really fast, but it's now how Sonic is flung around the level be it by ground or in the air.

 

Dash pads have no purpose other than to direct Sonic's movement...and speed Sonic up on straightaways that have next to nothing in them. 

[azoo]

6 minutes ago, JosepMelloZSM said:

AGAIN. If done RIGHT, it could be good. 

Doubt it. Very much so!

Quote

And who should care about if is the wrong audience at this point. You guys gave up on this game already. They need new people to replace.

If your view on a long running franchise is to simply replace your old fans with new ones, then I'm probably not going to take your opinion very seriously.

Make note that no other franchise does this. Mario doesn't do this. Zelda doesn't do this. Halo doesn't, AssCreed doesn't, not a single other franchise does this. Sonic is the only franchise that makes such ridiculous decisions that absolutely break it's base at every turn, and doesn't care to tactfully keep it together. This is not how it works elsewhere. Sonic is an outlier.

3 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

I guess because SEGA wants to let people enjoy speed there. *shrug*

Only explanation I can think of.

And you definitely could without it being there, if only you did it yourself rather than letting the game do it for you.

There's no really good justifcation for boostpad spam in Sonic games, other than them having not designed a game well enough to feel natural within those moments where they decide you need one. Either way, not a good thing!

[Spooky Mulder]

1 minute ago, SSF1991 said:

I guess because SEGA wants to let people enjoy speed there. *shrug*

Only explanation I can think of.

Yeah remember Sonics 1-3&K when the only time anyone got to enjoy speed in a Sonic game was in Chemical Plant?

[The Deleter]

Boosters being good is only a legitimate argument if "but what about grandma?" situations are taken into consideration

And since the largest extreme of that is the game literally playing itself, when the whole point of playing a game is to play the game, anything that automates for the sake of automation is detrimental.

 

Why is this even an argument, though? I thought boosters being bad for Sonic was a near absolute fact by about now...