Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Captain Fun]

29 minutes ago, Kintor said:

I'm completely serious about how big the social media crowd is and how Sonic Forces can benefit from that. I mean, there are people who make careers just out of playing Minecraft on YouTube and Twitch, some of them are even millionaires because of that. If the character creation system catches the attention of that crowd then we will see a significant amount of extra sales for Sonic Forces. If the internet goes crazy for the character creator then it will be quite easy for Sonic Forces to become one of the bestselling Sonic games ever.

Even ignoring how many ifs are in this scenario (and there are a lot) is there any actual evidence that the Minecraft fanbase would care about some create-a-furry feature in a Sonic platformer?  

Minecraft is a phenomenon. Sonic... really isn't. 

[Shiny Gems]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Again, it's not because you'd want to stop. Like Sonikko said, you're supposed to make it around a loop by your own efforts; there needs to be a possibility of failure, even if it's low and with little punishment.

I see. Well, I can see that, but for a loop like that, I don't see how bad it is putting a booster there if there is no punishment to be had and no failure of any kind to happen in such a loop. Maybe if this were some other kind of loop with some danger...

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In 2D, that is still automation.

Even if you were to have more control over the character, like slowing down or jumping?

 

 

[StaticMania]

5 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

This has been proven wrong. The level design would need to be tailored for it, but the no automation route is totally possible. What this mod does is remove every automation bit in the game, even the invisible ramps and every single booster. The game works beautifully without them and the physics make even more sense. It's not that it isn't possible, it's that they won't do it because it's easier to design a level around automation than keeping the physics system in mind.

The physics still need to be tweaked...the fact that Classic Sonic couldn't roll through that first loop based on momentum alone is just sad and he loses speed too fast on inclines.

[blazefan519]

4 minutes ago, Metal Sonic NEGA said:

Just to add to the whole "Create a character" thing: if the new guy did turn out to be one in the end, how much customisation would we actually be getting? 'Cause I'd be surprised if we got anything more than being able to change their physical appearance. Like, what about their personality? What if there's no option to change it?

Say that, hypothetically speaking, I'm the kind of guy who would want to create a "cool, edgy loner" type of character, but then there's no option to change the personality of that character. So instead, I'm basically stuck with "heroic, friendly guy who idolises Sonic and friends" or something like that, even though that's the opposite type of character that I wanted to play as.

At that point, why should I care about having my very own playable character in the game, when there's a decent chance that they'd only have one type of personality and/or gameplay style? They'd basically just be "my character in name/appearance only", so what's the point?

(This is all hypothetical, of course. Personally, I don't want to see custom characters in this game at all. Leave that to the modding communities, please.)

Basically my problem with it too. There's too much that will have to be taken into account just to make the character actually seem like you, which is why I'm that the character is actually it's own being and not customizable.

[JezMM]

Just now, Kintor said:

I've seen it happen before once YouTube and Twitch gets hold of a game they like, or at least a game they can readily use as content for more videos. This is the sources of that Friday Night at Freddy's phenomenon, a wholly unremarkable Indy went on to sell millions of copies and spawn several sequels thanks to social media. The same ideas can certainly work in Sonic Forces favour, a character creation system is ideal for sharing content online and getting people talking about the game. Once that kind of hype starts rolling a good many gamers will buy Sonic Forces out of sheer impulse.

FNAF was an unknown indie game with no established public opinion.  Sonic is a household name already and for most has a stigma of either "oh how are the Sonic games these days?" or "Sonic isn't what it used to be".

You know what would get people talking about the game much, much better and appeal to both those opinions?  It just being a really good game.

I mean FNAF didn't have any social media compatible features, it just was what it was and people streamed it.  If Sonic Forces is a really good game too, the same will happen.  The character creator won't add anything to that.

[Kintor]

Just now, Captain Fun said:

Even ignoring how many ifs are in this scenario (and there are a lot) is there any actual evidence that the Minecraft fanbase would care about some create-a-furry feature in a Sonic platformer?  

Minecraft is a phenomenon. Sonic... really isn't. 

You can't decide whether something is a phenomenon or not before that phenomenon is created. Besides, we're talking about something bigger then the Minecraft fanbase, that huge group of gamers that gets their gaming news primarily from YouTube and Twitch. If Sega can use a character creation system to win over that crowd then we'll definitely see Sonic Forces become a unique phenomenon for the Sonic franchise.

[Sonikko]

Just now, StaticMania said:

The physics still need to be tweaked...the fact that Classic Sonic couldn't roll through that first loop based on momentum alone is just sad and he loses speed too fast on inclines.

Sure, they're not perfect, but I understand that a 1:1 recreation on a different engine not exactly created for that is impossible. But they should work with what they currently have and make the best out of it, not just slapping automated slopes, ramps and loops all over the place and call it a day. It might be easier designing and testing the game with that philosophy in mind, but it's not fun to play.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, CrystalStorm51 said:

I see. Well, I can see that, but for a loop like that, I don't see how bad it is putting a booster there if there is no punishment to be had and no failure of any kind to happen in such a loop. Maybe if this were some other kind of loop with some danger...

The punishment is falling off the loop and having to back up so you have space to build speed or stop and charge a spindash. It's low-level punishment for failing a low-level challenge, but it still matters; putting a boost pad in front of a loop is like having Goombas that stomp themselves.

1 minute ago, CrystalStorm51 said:

Even if you were to have more control over the character, like slowing down or jumping?

Since, in the case of a boost pad right before a loop, it essentially invalidates however much speed you had built up on your own and simply gives you enough speed to get through the loop, yeah, it's still automation.

I mean, keep in mind that I'm not saying every last boost pad is bad. A little kick in the right direction, a quick burst of speed, is not always a bad thing. But Sonic games have gone way too far with them, to the point that it sucks out the fun of actually playing the game by reducing it to little more than watching the game fling Sonic around on its own.

[Milo]

44 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

Now come on, you know this isn't true. 

If you are travelling at speed at that section for the first time, you will never avoid that booster, you will always hit it because you don't know the level layout.

It's also clearly a hand holding device as opposed to good game design, instead of allowing the player to learn about the game and figure out how to handle obstacles, they can cheaply just touch that power up and blast past the hazard.

That's not good game or level design, it's cheap and devalues the stage. It also results in the age old problem of automation and 'Am I actually playing this' if there are boosters there for what should be a relatively simple hazard to navigate.

Furthermore, even if I do master that stage, and i know it's coming, given it's position should I try to jump it, my speed will suffer upon leaving the ground or landing due to the difference in level geometry, meaning I'm penalised for actually being good at the game due to a hand holding device.

Actually Hoggy, everyone likes different level design features. Sonic Forces needs to have elements of platforming exploration; so you have to strike a balance to allow people do do that - plus let them play fast if they want to.

If you don't like a dash pad - you can always jump over it and treat it like an obstacle. 

[Sonikko]

8 minutes ago, BubbleButt TV said:

Whoa, why have I not heard of this mod until now? Tell me there's one that brings back the badnik bounce and I'm sold.

Not that I know, the level design doesn't accomodate for it either, so you wouldn't get much use out of it, unfortunately. There's a Fixing Sonic Generations mod tho that gives Classic a slightly better rolling.

 

 

This is a video showcasing the same no automation mod just in the modern stage, it clearly shows that the boost alone is enough to get through the level, no boosters needed. I understand the scripted ramps in the modern levels, because the boost is so fast that every single ramp would take you flying, they're not needed in the classic stages though.

Also, the boost pads in the Adventure games worked differently, they made you go significantly faster than you already were, they were used to face you in the right direction, and they didn't take control out of the player for a long time! There were still automated loops and scripted sequences anyway, so.

[Kintor]

8 minutes ago, JezMM said:

I mean FNAF didn't have any social media compatible features, it just was what it was and people streamed it.  If Sonic Forces is a really good game too, the same will happen.  The character creator won't add anything to that.

The character creator would add a whole new dynamic into what kind of information can be shared across social media. A normal Sonic game is mainly limited to some form of 'let's play' video and the always impressive speed run videos. However, a robust and intuitive character creation system is an almost limitless source of new information; it's exactly the kind of thing that makesr of YouTube and Twitch video latch onto because they are constantly searching for new content. Anyone would be able to create their own Sonic character and share they results of their creatively across the internet, when you have a combination of big names in social media and other people doing the same thing then you start to see a phenomenon developing. Get this right then the idea of Sonic Forces as a desirable game will spread across the internet like wildfire.

[Captain Fun]

4 minutes ago, Kintor said:

You can't decide whether something is a phenomenon or not before that phenomenon is created. Besides, we're talking about something bigger then the Minecraft fanbase, that huge group of gamers that gets their gaming news primarily from YouTube and Twitch. If Sega can use a character creation system to win over that crowd then we'll definitely see Sonic Forces become a unique phenomenon for the Sonic franchise.

I'm saying Sonic's not a phenomenon right now. Minecraft is, which is why it gets the Youtube and Twitch viewership. 

But again, there are a lot of ifs in your scenario. IF there's a character creator, and IF it's good and IF it captures the Youtube/Twitch crowds then it will result in a bunch of sales. Do think all of that is really plausible? Lots of games have character creators but that doesn't make them instant Youtuber bait. 

[Sonikko]

15 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

The physics still need to be tweaked...the fact that Classic Sonic couldn't roll through that first loop based on momentum alone is just sad and he loses speed too fast on inclines.

Sorry for the double quote!

I think the physics are not perfect, but the level design is built around automation. If they just made that loop a little smaller, Sonic could've got through just fine imho.

Giant loops are a result of them being automated and purely for spectacle, the trend started in Sonic Adventure, we never had those in 2D games (I think they wouldn't have worked very well there either), before Sonic Advance 2, which, not suprisingly, had a boost pad before almost each loop.

[Shiny Gems]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

The punishment is falling off the loop and having to back up so you have space to build speed or stop and charge a spindash. It's low-level punishment for failing a low-level challenge, but it still matters; putting a boost pad in front of a loop is like having Goombas that stomp themselves.

I personally wouldn't say it is like Goombas stomping themselves, personally. To me, it is still a little thing that doesn't affect at least me either way, especially if there is not much else to do in that loop. Maybe if it was much bigger, or something else, that'd be, well, a different story.

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Since, in the case of a boost pad right before a loop, it essentially invalidates however much speed you had built up on your own and simply gives you enough speed to get through the loop, yeah, it's still automation.

I mean, keep in mind that I'm not saying every last boost pad is bad. A little kick in the right direction, a quick burst of speed, is not always a bad thing. But Sonic games have gone way too far with them, to the point that it sucks out the fun of actually playing the game by reducing it to little more than watching the game fling Sonic around on its own.

To me, boost pads don't have to be made to do that if they were to be made differently. I mean, still having control even when going through the boost pad should make some difference, should it not? Either way, I am personally fine with boost pads in some ways, but I'd be even better if there were some input in them and they were not so automated in terms of making the player go through at a fixed speed.

I understand how it may affect you and some others, but to me, as long as the game is still good and there is plenty of input in lots of other areas, there should not be a problem, right? That is to say that we shouldn't NOT complain about them, since we can still get our voices heard about why we don't like them being overused (even though they have still kept using them the same way in every game, but hey, it doesn't hurt to keep trying, right?).

[JezMM]

11 minutes ago, Kintor said:

The character creator would add a whole new dynamic into what kind of information can be shared across social media. A normal Sonic game is mainly limited to some form of 'let's play' video and the always impressive speed run videos. However, a robust and intuitive character creation system is an almost limitless source of new information; it's exactly the kind of thing that makes of YouTube and Twitch video makes latch onto because they are constantly searching for new content. Anyone would be able to create their own Sonic character and share they results of their creatively across the internet, when you have a combination of big names in social media and other people doing the same thing then you start to see a phenomenon developing. Get this right then the idea of Sonic Forces as a desirable game will spread across the internet like wildfire.

There are hundreds of games out there with excellent character creation systems, so why haven't we seen this phenomenon already with another game?

Also, since Sonic Forces is a single player game, here's three videos of the same single player PSO2 quest:

 

How exactly does the aesthetic appearance of each uploader's player character in any way make these three videos uniquely enjoyable from each other?

Character customisation in Sonic Forces will be the exact same scenario - except Forces very very likely won't even have unique classes/gear loadouts to vary up the gameplay footage.

 

 

_{(P.S. To any casual observers I'm not actually suggesting anyone watch these videos since this is a very early quest made very early on in the game's life, it's not very indictive of PSO2's gameplay nor production values as of these days. Basically, don't judge the game from them if you're interested in it lol).}

[Voyant]

19 minutes ago, Kintor said:

The character creator would add a whole new dynamic into what kind of information can be shared across social media. A normal Sonic game is mainly limited to some form of 'let's play' video and the always impressive speed run videos. However, a robust and intuitive character creation system is an almost limitless source of new information; it's exactly the kind of thing that makesr of YouTube and Twitch video latch onto because they are constantly searching for new content. Anyone would be able to create their own Sonic character and share they results of their creatively across the internet, when you have a combination of big names in social media and other people doing the same thing then you start to see a phenomenon developing. Get this right then the idea of Sonic Forces as a desirable game will spread across the internet like wildfire.

I understand where you're TRYING to come from, but that not how "Meme" games work.

I have a degree in marketing and while I do agree that there are patterns that lead to a chance of something going viral, this isn't the way to do it. If anything this will lead to the kind of viral marketing you DON'T want.

You want audiences genuinely enjoying the game, instead of just making fun of it because you can make "Edge The Hedgehog". Also youtubers don't generate as much sales as you think. People like Total Biscuit would generate more sales than let's say PewDiePie for example. 

People go to TB for a opnion to buy a product where people watch PewDiePie because he is PewDiePie. 

[Kintor]

3 minutes ago, JezMM said:

There are hundreds of games out there with excellent character creation systems, so why haven't we seen this phenomenon already with another game?

You do see things phenomenon quite regularly, especial when a game has broader audience appeal like a Minecraft. Even the latest Dragon Ball games have always seen benefit because of their character system. Sonic Forces, as a game that is both cartoony and with darker elements has that broad appeal. The barrier of entry isn't as high compared to a MMORPG or even a RPG, when Sonic games pride themselves on being able to 'pick up and play'. A short amount of time anyone would be able to access the character creator system and then jump immediately into a new platforming stage, thus video makers can use Sonic Forces to quickly generate new content for their audiences. Sonic Forces helps those video makers create new content and in turn more people watch those videos and then decide to by Sonic Forces, it's a reciprocal relationship.

[Jango]

i hope i can at least give MY ORIGINAL CHARACTER DO NOT STEAL a name, which will obviously be 'assfart' because it's funny you know kids do that in zelda all the time right? et cetera

[Captain Fun]

3 minutes ago, Jango said:

i hope i can at least give MY ORIGINAL CHARACTER DO NOT STEAL a name, which will obviously be 'assfart' because it's funny you know kids do that in zelda all the time right? et cetera

IIRC the rumor said the character's name was Buddy or something. Obviously the guy misheard "Bubsy."

[The Deleter]

The only exceptions I can think of for the automation argument are ramps. Ramps should probably remain for the boost games, since getting your trajectory just right when running that fast is near impossible, and you'd fly off into the sunset without them. But they're still pretty bad, and can be done better.

Right now they don't actually mean anything. They send Sonic flying visually, sure, but only on a set path and scripted process, which means it might as well have been a straight line gameplay-wise. You're not doing anything, and it doesn't mean anything. It's just different actions happening on screen.

 

What they should act like is a normal ramp, just guaranteed to launch you in the correct direction. Everything outside of those requirements, like speed and momentum, could be completely analog, and give you higher or lower paths depending on how fast you hit them. That way, they mean something to the game in a punishment/reward relationship, without being outright unfair, and nearly skips around the issues of automation entirely.

For the boost games, at least. Anything slower than that, and they probably shouldn't be there, tbh.

[Diogenes]

I think the ramp issue would be mostly solved if they stopped making levels that were little more than narrow paths over pits. If there was actually a decent amount of space to land in, they wouldn't need ramps that force you in just the right direction.

[JezMM]

5 minutes ago, Kintor said:

You do see things phenomenon quite regularly, especial when a game has broader audience appeal like a Minecraft. Even the latest Dragon Ball games have always seen benefit because of their character system. Sonic Forces, as a game that is both cartoony and with darker elements has that broad appeal. The barrier of entry isn't as high compared to a MMORPG or even a RPG, when Sonic games pride themselves on being able to 'pick up and play'. A short amount of time anyone would be able to access the character creator system and then jump immediately into a new platforming stage, thus video makers can use Sonic Forces to quickly generate new content for their audiences. Sonic Forces helps those video makers create new content and in turn more people watch those videos and then decide to by Sonic Forces, it's a reciprocal relationship.

I had no idea that Dragonball Games had character creators despite being well aware that Dragonball games are made fairly regularly and aren't unpopular so there that is.

And you failed to say how the PSO2 footage provided was unique and interesting due to the player character aesthetics.  Sonic Dreams Collection is about the most social-media friendly Sonic release that has ever been because the horror/squick factor made each player's unique response to it the appeal of multiple watches.

[Sonikko]

6 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

The only exceptions I can think of for the automation argument are ramps. Ramps should probably remain for the boost games, since getting your trajectory just right when running that fast is near impossible, and you'd fly off into the sunset without them. But they're still pretty bad, and can be done better.

Right now they don't actually mean anything. They send Sonic flying visually, sure, but only on a set path and scripted process, which means it might as well have been a straight line gameplay-wise. You're not doing anything, and it doesn't mean anything. It's just different actions happening on screen.

 

What they should act like is a normal ramp, just guaranteed to launch you in the correct direction. Everything outside of those requirements, like speed and momentum, could be completely analog, and give you higher or lower paths depending on how fast you hit them. That way, they mean something to the game in a punishment/reward relationship, without being outright unfair, and nearly skips around the issues of automation entirely.

For the boost games, at least. Anything slower than that, and they probably shouldn't be there, tbh.

This, this so much.

Keep the ramps and the loops spline based, on rail. But make them react to the player speed, that's the way I'd like it to be done. Or alternatively, build a huge level like in Sonic Utopia, flying off using ramps in that fan game is so so much fun. I still play it regularly.

A speed booster here and there to give a sense of direction is ok, just change the way they work, make them more like in the Adventure games, where they actually just gave you a speed boost and didn't take your control away.

[Jango]

16 minutes ago, Captain Fun said:

IIRC the rumor said the character's name was Buddy or something. Obviously the guy misheard "Bubsy."

You know that this can actually happen since the company that owns Bubsy at the moment have worked with SEGA before on some mobile games :V So hold on your chairs.

Personally, I like Aaron's suggestion better: the new character is actually Big the Cat thin. Now we know what he's being doing all these years, cross-fit!

 

YES

http://mikumikudance.wikia.com/wiki/Big_The_Cat_Thin_(Pikadude)?file=Big_the_Cat_thin_by_Pikadude.png

[Kintor]

3 minutes ago, JezMM said:

I had no idea that Dragonball Games had character creators despite being well aware that Dragonball games are made fairly regularly and aren't unpopular so there that is.

And you failed to say how the PSO2 footage provided was unique and interesting due to the player character aesthetics.  Sonic Dreams Collection is about the most social-media friendly Sonic release that has ever been because the horror/squick factor made each player's unique response to it the appeal of multiple watches.

No offense but the fact that you aren't aware of the character creator in recent Dragon Ball games says more about your limited sources of information then it does the popularity of Dragon Ball Z. Besides, I've already your question, Sonic Forces as a platformer is a lot more accessible then a MMORPG. It's an easier value proposition for someone to buy Sonic Forces on impulse, since then can devote a couple of hours to Sonic Forces whenever they want whereas a MMORPG is often the equivalent of a part-time job.