Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[azoo]

8 minutes ago, Kintor said:

How about this instead? Sonic Forces and Sonic Mania both marker a resurgence for the Sonic franchise. With Sonic Mania as smaller (mostly) digital release sold at a budget price point. While Sonic Mania, as a full-fledged AAA 3D Sonic game, is hailed as a return to form by restoring the successful formula last used in Sonic Generations. No need for any kind of civil war in the Sonic fanbase, when overall most Sonic fans are happy to see Sonic Mania but have always eagerly been waiting these past six years to see a true sequel to Sonic Generations. Being divisive like this doesn't help anybody and only serves to distort the bigger picture, the future of the Sonic franchise as a whole. A future that can be built together through the success of both Sonic Forces and Sonic Mania.

If you think Forces is going to be a harbinger of unity (not only given what's going to be a phenomenally base-breaking new gimmick, but also in how it emphasizes the hard splits in the fanbase and then tries to cater to it and a hundred things at once without seeming to know a single thing about how to bring it all together), then I think you might need a reality check.

Let alone pitching Forces beside a game that knows exactly what it wants to be, excels at it, attracts wide crowds, and manages to not make a single smidge of the game design mistakes that a huge ass studio has been making for well near 20 years..

Man. You've got another think coming. I'm just saying.

3 minutes ago, Dejimon11 said:

While I do believe that Mania is going to be the better received of the two(something I've been saying since day one) I think it's too soon to write off whether or not Sonic Forces is going to be a good or bad game. Especially considering we haven't even seen one full level. I'd say let's wait a while till we see more of the game until we hit the panic button again. 

I don't think modern Sonic's gameplay is going to be bad. I imagine it'll have some pretty rad stages. But classic Sonic's quality is already not looking too shiny, and.. well, no matter how well polished the Werehog may have been for Unleashed, it's concept in itself is what everyone was caught on, is all I've got to contribute there.

[Kintor]

2 minutes ago, Azoo said:

Man. You've got another think coming. I'm just saying.

Sonic Forces will do fine, as the long awaiting sequel to the Sonic Generations; to make amends for Lost World and Sonic Boom. While Sonic Mania is its own game, as a smaller downloadable title. There will inevitably be drama along the way but nothing the Sonic fanbase hasn't seen and dealt with before, we may be one of the most aggressive fanbases on the internet but our common interest in the Sonic franchise as a whole unites more than it has ever divided. Besides, I don't particularly care if a few reviews in the media have an axe to grind, the gaming media doesn't have the influence they did back in 2008 or even in 2011 anymore. The media can support Sonic Forces or they can continue their slide to irrelevancy, I don't care which. As for me, I'll be happily playing both Sonic Forces and Sonic Mania this year.

[azoo]

I'm not even sure how to continue discussion on the matter if you really think that social media and the gaming community is somehow becoming less relevant, and that Sonic Forces will make Sonic somehow more relevant.

Especially if you think that a sequel to Generations will alone reinvigorate the Sonic franchise, as if by then noone will have any fault to give it. Especially after years upon years of ridicule for various reasons related to batshit ideas and lack of quality control for game design, and a stigma that not only is classic Sonic better than modern Sonic, but that fans do a better job than Sonic Team; something that will only be proven here to the general public. I mean, most people in the general public are already on the fence about Forces for it's tone and presentation, and that's not even going into what it's grand gimmick could entail.

It's like we're talking on completely different planes of existence right now.

[Captain Fun]

3 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Besides, I don't particularly care if a few reviews in the media have an axe to grind, the gaming media doesn't have the influence they did back in 2008 or even in 2011 anymore. The media can support Sonic Forces or they can continue their slide to irrelevancy, I don't care which.

I mean this is just my observation but people seem to care more about review scores than ever thanks to aggregators like Metacritic. 

And while I don't like to pit two games against each other, the fact that Mania is coming out the same year and the fact that it looks like what many fans wanted and the fact that its basically being done by fans makes Forces look... kinda shit. 

[Kintor]

3 minutes ago, Azoo said:

I'm not even sure how to continue discussion on the matter if you really think that social media is becoming more irrelevant, and that Sonic Forces will make Sonic more relevant.

I'm talking about the usual suspects: IGN, Kotaku and Gamespot etc. The 'professional' reviewers who in the past have got to great lengths to malign the Sonic franchise as a whole. My point is that the influence of these traditional sources of gaming information has steadily eroded over the last decade; the apparent threat that the gaming media could ever pose to Sonic Forces has vastly diminished. Which if nothing else gives Sonic Forces and Sonic Mania a better fighting chance then Sonic Unleashed or Sonic 4 ever had. So I'm not overly concerned with how things will turn out in the next months, I think that Sonic Forces and Sonic Mania will land on their feet.

[Dejimon11]

14 minutes ago, Azoo said:

I don't think modern Sonic's gameplay is going to be bad. I imagine it'll have some pretty rad stages. But classic Sonic's quality is already not looking too shiny, and.. well, no matter how well polished the Werehog may have been for Unleashed, it's concept in itself is what everyone was caught on, is all I've got to contribute there.

As somebody who's never played Generations(Eventually) how were classic sonic's stages? I know it's physics and what not aren't like the Genesis games-that's a given they knew they can't do it that it's why Mania exists. 

[Chris Knopps]

25 minutes ago, Dejimon11 said:

While I do believe that Mania is going to be the better received of the two(something I've been saying since day one) I think it's too soon to write off whether or not Sonic Forces is going to be a good or bad game. Especially considering we haven't even seen one full level. I'd say let's wait a while till we see more of the game until we hit the panic button again. 

I dunno...

I have a feeling that, even if it's a pretty looking game at E3, most people are going to blast through whatever modern stage is made available, and will say something along the following...

"Boost again huh...? Okay..."

And when they beat a stage...

"Well... Alright."

In an indifferent kind of tone since it's basically holding a single button most of the time while doing random jumps and homing attacks. Even if the boost is more limited it's still pushing either up or right to go forward, or, well, right, in the stage since it's very corridor oriented despite whatever paths may be available.

Then when they play the Classic Sonic stage available...

"Huh... Wait, isn't Mania here? Hold up!!"

And then there you go, more folks rush to the Mania booth after the 2D reminder. And when they play Mania and get hands on with its 2D game play...

"Wow... Not bad! But... That Forces game... Ouch..."

Preferences will be made. Comparisons are going to happen. Whitehead will be glowing like Jeebus. Iizuka will be groaning.

[Indigo Rush]

3 minutes ago, Dejimon11 said:

As somebody who's never played Generations(Eventually) how were classic sonic's stages? I know it's physics and what not aren't like the Genesis games-that's a given they knew they can't do it that it's why Mania exists. 

Generally decent platforming with some fast bits thrown in, but there's a LOT of janky automation that's really difficult to ignore, and it's especially uncanny if you've ever played the classics before. It feels like it was designed by someone who was explained on a basic level on what the original games played like with no opportunity to play it themselves. Videos don't do it justice, you really need to handle it yourself.

There's a demo on Steam, I think.

[Kintor]

7 minutes ago, Captain Fun said:

And while I don't like to pit two games against each other, the fact that Mania is coming out the same year and the fact that it looks like what many fans wanted and the fact that its basically being done by fans makes Forces look... kinda shit. 

Except your forgeting that a 'Sonic Generations 2' is what many Sonic fans and the rest of the gaming community has been waiting six years to play. Meaning that people want Sonic Mania but they also want what Sonic Forces is finally delivering. The kind of comparisons you want to make have no place in the greater scheme of things, when both Sonic games help the Sonic franchise as a whole restore its reputation.

[KHCast]

1 hour ago, Kintor said:

And a lack of good information breeds fear and paranoia.

Edit: Such as this post Scar made:

You have nothing to base this on and just attacking Sonic Team's reputation directly, ignoring all the great visuals and gameplay ideas that have already been revealed about Sonic Forces. The Hedgeheg Engine will serve Sonic Forces well, as Sonic Team continues to work on the game. To suggest the Hedgehog Engine itself is a problem just poisons discussion and has no basis in any information available.

...

Anyway on a more positive note, let's bring this thread back to some fun speculation:

What about some sort of ancient overgrown temple fused with a modern city?

That'd be cool, sky scrapers mixed together with ziggurats and crumbling statues. Take the subway as a short cut and you end up in the middle of a tomb instead etc.

Sonic teams reputation was already in the gutter. They don't deserve blind trust when they haven't proved themselves to those disappointed.

 

You have nothing to base this on

lol

[azoo]

I think you're forgetting the part where there will be a fan character creator AS WELL as you playing as this fan character and him taking up a third of the game, if not going by that descriptor we were given, even the very beginning of the game itself.

And I know you will think it's not a big deal, and you'd be wrong!

Which is why I'd like to probably suggest that we move the subject on elsewhere of whatever this is, and maybe start to veer towards any sort of speculation as to what else could be in the game, if there is anything else to talk of. Any other bits of speculation to be had about artwork and stuff in the stages? I don't know, anything but whatever this is though.

[Indigo Rush]

2 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Except your forgeting that a 'Sonic Generations 2' is what many Sonic fans and the rest of the gaming community has been waiting six years to play.

Where have you been, most of us around here expected and wanted Generations to be a one-time deal before a Classic and a Modern brand split, not another Generations.

[Kintor]

Just now, KHCast said:

Sonic teams reputation was already in the gutter. They don't deserve blind trust when they haven't proved themselves to those disappointed.

Sonic Team doesn't deserve baseless paranoia, singling out the Hedgehog Engine 2 of all things, when Sonic Forces has already done much to address the concerns of Sonic fans in the aftermath of Lost World and Sonic Boom.

[Celestia]

8 minutes ago, Dejimon11 said:

As somebody who's never played Generations(Eventually) how were classic sonic's stages? I know it's physics and what not aren't like the Genesis games-that's a given they knew they can't do it that it's why Mania exists. 

I feel that they weren't all that bad for what they are, i.e. a very unfaithful take on Classic Sonic. The main issue was the physics, not just stuff like rolling but literally just, how Sonic felt to control. It's been a few years since I played the game but I specifically remember jumps feeling very awkward, which um...I mean, that's a pretty big deal in a platformer. That's the main thing you gotta get right first!

But yeah the actual level design was nice for the most part, it's just that the core gameplay doesn't live up to it's own promises and is pretty flawed even if you ignore that.

[Dejimon11]

7 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Generally decent platforming with some fast bits thrown in, but there's a LOT of janky automation that's really difficult to ignore, and it's especially uncanny if you've ever played the classics before. It feels like it was designed by someone who was explained on a basic level on what the original games played like with no opportunity to play it themselves. Videos don't do it justice, you really need to handle it yourself.

There's a demo on Steam, I think.

Sadly I have a Mac so I can't play it atm. 

[KHCast]

7 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Sonic Team doesn't deserve baseless paranoia, singling out the Hedgehog Engine 2 of all things, when Sonic Forces has already done much to address the concerns of Sonic fans in the aftermath of Lost World and Sonic Boom.

How so? Lots of people didn't like moderns boost gameplay, and actually liked the ideas presented on lost world, and Classic looks unchanged from gens. It's not baseless paranoia just cause people aren't blindly excited for a new sonic game 

Also, the original Hedgehog engine was fine, considering Unleashed is still the most visually impressive game in the series to date. There was honestly no need to do a massive retread and dump money into a completely new engine.

[Kintor]

1 minute ago, Azoo said:

I think you're forgetting the part where there will be a fan character creator AS WELL as you playing as this fan character and him taking up a third of the game, if not going by that descriptor we were given, even the very beginning of the game itself.

Relax, a character creator is a different prospect to something like another alternative gameplay style. For one thing, any player made characters will probably closely following the existing classic and/or modern gameplay mechanics. Plus it remains to be seen how much of the game is required to be completed by fan character or not. For all we know this feature could be mostly optional, that is unless your going for a 100% completion achievement. It's a fun little idea that helps Sonic Forces stand out, hardly the thin edge of the wedge for the game as a whole.

[The Deleter]

3 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Sonic Team doesn't deserve baseless paranoia

They deserve nothing but it until they disprove their incompetence consistantly

Coming off of generations, this may have been a different story

Coming off of "this will be the best Sonic game we've made yet!" Lost World?

Sure...

[azoo]

9 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Sonic Team doesn't deserve baseless paranoia, singling out the Hedgehog Engine 2 of all things, when Sonic Forces has already done much to address the concerns of Sonic fans in the aftermath of Lost World and Sonic Boom.

Address concerns? Like what?

- They're encouraging divide to the franchise by continuing to keep using modern and classic Sonic side by side as if they are two distinctly separate identities.

- They're still unaware of their own problems with game design. Dash pads, automation, unfaithfulness to mechanics once established, alternate gameplay styles that take up HUGE chunks of the game, an abundance of things no one asked for, immense padding.

- They're still keeping the extended cast regulated to the side, without much other usage than being cheerleaders (and other minor roles).

- They're still relying on superficial nostalgia pandering rather than understanding why their content was once so very appreciated.

- They're still injecting batshit insane ideas into their games with reckless abandon.

- They're reawakening an extremely negative stigma on the Sonic fanbase and the franchise as a whole by enabling fan characters in a major 3D platformer title that they put loads of money into marketing and creating.

Please, tell me. What do these results address?

[Kintor]

Just now, The Deleter said:

They deserve nothing but it until they disprove their incompetence consistantly

Coming off of generations, this may have been a different story

Coming off of "this will be the best Sonic game we've made yet!" Lost World?

Sure...

I beleive that Sonic Team always deserve the common courtesy of a respective tone. The factors that gave rise to Lost World and Sonic Boom no longer exist. The WiiU was a failure and Sega is moving away from ill-advised Nintendo exclusives. While most of the staff at Sega of America responsible for Sonic Boom's creation (inlcuding all of Big Red Button) are no longer employed at the company. the prospects for Sonic Forces are looking much brighter, as is apparent from the gameplay trailers and interviews that Sega has already provided.

[Captain Fun]

11 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Except your forgeting that a 'Sonic Generations 2' is what many Sonic fans and the rest of the gaming community has been waiting six years to play. Meaning that people want Sonic Mania but they also want what Sonic Forces is finally delivering.

Maybe in your reality. In the one I live in, Sonic Generations was a bit divisive in the fan communities and was "good but not great" elsewhere. And that was six years ago- people were expecting more in the way of improvements, myself included. 

 

Just now, Azoo said:

- They're reawakening an extremely negative stigma on the Sonic fanbase and the franchise as a whole by enabling fan characters in a major 3D platformer title that they put loads of money into marketing and creating.

I think we're getting a little far ahead on this one though. We've talked so much about this character creator business it seems to have become an accepted fact. 

[Kintor]

3 minutes ago, Azoo said:

- They're reawakening an extremely negative stigma on the Sonic fanbase and the franchise as a whole by enabling fan characters in a major 3D platformer title that they put loads of money into marketing and creating.

Don't be so self-conscious. Nobody is going to think less of the Sonic fanbase because of a character creator of all things. The worst results from a character creator will come from outside the Sonic fanbase, from certain people on YouTube and Twitch deliberately creating stupid looking characters for a laugh. But that's all part of the fun; letting people muck around with a character creator can only bring more attention to Sonic Forces, positive attention at that.

[Captain Fun]

Just now, Kintor said:

Don't be so self-conscious. Nobody is going to think less of the Sonic fanbase because of a character creator of all things. The worst results from a character creator will come from outside the Sonic fanbase, from certain people on YouTube and Twitch deliberately creating stupid looking characters for a laugh. But that's all part of the fun; letting people muck around with a character creator can only bring more attention to Sonic Forces, positive attention at that.

are we seriously gonna do this again

[Celestia]

Man, I've enjoyed the last few (non-Boom) games, but I can't say I'm a fan of asking people to be more respectful towards Sonic Team. Partly because not many people are going too far with it, but also because it's not as if they're here anyway?? Like, if someone were to express enough rage to wish harm on them or something that'd be one thing, but everyone's just saying their games aren't that great. Insisting people be more courteous in response to that seems like an attempt to shut down criticism.

[Kintor]

2 minutes ago, Captain Fun said:

are we seriously gonna do this again

Sure, why not? Speculating about something fun like a character creator sounds like a better idea then debating the boost mechanics for the umpteenth time. I'd much rather talk about the future then have endless recriminations about the past.

Edit:

1 minute ago, Celestia said:

Man, I've enjoyed the last few (Sonic Team) games, but I can't say I'm a fan of asking people to be more respectful towards Sonic Team. Partly because not many people are going too far with it, but also because it's not as if they're here anyway?? Like, if someone were to express enough rage to wish harm on them or something that'd be one thing, but everyone's just saying their games aren't that great. Insisting people be more courteous in response to that seems like an attempt to shut down criticism.

All I wanted to say is that I don't believe it's fair to claim that Sonic Team hasn't been working on Sonic Forces because they've been working on the Hedgehog Engine 2 instead. There's no evidence to support this idea and there never will be, since Japanse intensly private about their day to day practises. Making this line of thought little better then a conspiracy theory.