Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Scar]

1 minute ago, Blue Blood said:

Agreed on this. The Death Egg Robot is one of Eggmans most symbolic machines. He's now going all out written them and doing something he's never done before. He's won. That's some serious shit. And to convey that, they look different. Gone are the goofy faces, replaced by a single eye with a powerful laser. The Choppers in Green Hill have undergone a similar change. They look more like mass production models with glowing eyes, lacking the typical whimsical features of Eggmans typical army. They're still  fish, but not how we're used to seeing them. 

Yep. All the enemies look great. They're very much Eggman's machines, but they're much colder in appearance. Like they're rolling off a factory line to consolidate Eggman's grasp over the world.

[Blue Blood]

Just now, Scar said:

Yep. All the enemies look great. They're very much Eggman's machines, but they're much colder in appearance. Like they're rolling off a factory line to consolidate Eggman's grasp over the world.

If there's one thing that I will praise about Forces so far, it's that it seems to be doing "dark and serious" Sonic correctly. Everything in the game still looks perfectly at home with Sonic's world, but you can see that things have taken a turn for the worse. It's completely unlike Shadow or 06, which chose to go for a totally different and realistic aesthetic and chuck Sonic on top. They've done it well. It also would have been cool if they took a Sonic CD bad future approach. 

[D.K.]

Eggman would have eventually realized that the whimsical and cartoony robot designs were not only not intimidating, but also take far too long to build and paint in mass numbers. The new bland but recognizable designs are a believable step forward for someone like Eggman.

Eggman's become so enveloped in the concept of conquering the world that he and his creations have lost their charm, their whimsy, and their incompetence. Gone is the Eggman that bribes other bad guys with giant sandwiches - Now he's ruthless, irredeemable, and pure evil. And I absolutely love it.

[StaticMania]

Eggman was redeemable before? I think it's more accurate to say, he's just a bit past his breaking point...mentally speaking.

[Auroxen]

8 hours ago, Kintor said:

I mean, this guy is already a giant robot:

This makes me think of one thing... exactly what is the scale between the Death Egg Robo Sentinels and Sonic?
They seem freaking huge in the background of the level so maybe they are as big as the 3&K final boss in your picture or even bigger.
I don't know it's really hard to tell, what do you guys think?

8 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

H'okay so

one interesting tidbit, and it could just be how they phrased it, but in the Nintendo Direct presentation, it mentioned that this "alternate version of Sonic" is trying to return to his "home world."

Now.... could just be phrasing. It's just about returning ol' younger Sonic back to his time period.

 

But.

 

What if they're doing a yuuuuuge retcon and making it so that Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic... are different universes altogether?

I mean. Would ya put it past 'em at this rate?

I have developed my own headcanon / theory to deal with this kind of questions.
I think that the classic series kind of branches into two separate timelines: the Mania one and the Modern one.
In the modern one after 3&K comes Sonic 4 and then Adventure and so on.
The "neoclassical" one has Mania as a sequel to 3&K and then possible Mania sequels.
This can even be stretched out to say that Hyper Sonic is canon to che Neoclassical one but not to the Modern one but that's taking it too far I think.

7 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I can certainly believe that they're exactly that dumb.

If Generations didn't exist, I could almost, almost accept that. There's a certain appeal in being able to imagine the world of the classic games having continued on somewhere else, immune to all the mutations and troubles that the series as we know it has gone through, even if it's just a trick of fiction in the end. It'd still be dumb and pretty much confirm the main series would never go back to being like that but that'd just be par for the course.

Doing it after Generations, and so soon after, even, would be so much dumber. They've already established that Sonic as being "Sonic from the past"; doubling back and declaring him a different Sonic altogether would feel like an insult. Or would Gens Classic and Forces Classic both be canon, so young Sonic would be identical to alternate universe Sonic? Ugh, it's just so dumb and the fact that I can't actually discount the possibility is painful.

According to that theory I just said, the Classic Sonic from Generations is actually a different one than the Forces one.
The Generations Classic Sonic would be the simply Sonic from the Classics that comes before Sonic 4, while the Forces Classic Sonic could come from Mania / the Neoclassical timeline, which would make him come from another world.
In fact, I wouldn't say it's impossible that they tie Forces and Mania and finally separate for good Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic.

2 hours ago, BubbleButt TV said:

Classic Sonic would no longer be 'the Sonic from the 2D games who eventually just went on to become modern Sonic as a natural progression' but instead becomes this weird sort of 'what-if' character, completely detatched from this franchise's future. 

This franchise needs cohesion, not segregation.

I would agree but to be honest I think we are way past the point of no return, I think that at this point it'd be better to just make Classic Sonic his own alternate character (as I explained above) and never have Sonics cross path again.
At least they are being smart enough to not make Adventure Sonic a thing, that'd be super dumb.

[azoo]

If Forces is the game where they treat classic Sonic as if from an alternate universe to modern, then it's probably one of the absolute worst ideas the series has ever come to. But then again, this game is looking like it has a knack for that, so no surprise there.

I do appreciate how this game looks like it gets a "dark / serious" vibe without breaking the art style, though, if anything. Hate that they took that long to get it to look right aesthetically, but still.

[Dejimon11]

1 hour ago, Azoo said:

If Forces is the game where they treat classic Sonic as if from an alternate universe to modern, then it's probably one of the absolute worst ideas the series has ever come to. But then again, this game is looking like it has a knack for that, so no surprise there.

I do appreciate how this game looks like it gets a "dark / serious" vibe without breaking the art style, though, if anything. Hate that they took that long to get it to look right aesthetically, but still.

Must I remind you that at the end of Sonic Riders they state that the Babylon Rogues are descendants of Genies then in Zero Gravity they were like "nah we're aliens instead". Not the first time the series has done something stupid before. 

[Blue Blood]

45 minutes ago, Dejimon11 said:

Must I remind you that at the end of Sonic Riders they state that the Babylon Rogues are descendants of Genies then in Zero Gravity they were like "nah we're aliens instead". Not the first time the series has done something stupid before. 

Yeah the series has had its stupid plots and I think the ZG is definitely a bit of an offender. But there's no plot hole there. In Riders, they find out that the Babylonians descended from genies. In ZG, they discover that these genies were actually aliens that crashed on Earth and couldn't leave. The power of flight that the genies had with their carpets and Babylon Garden itself was down to their technology, not magic.

[Auroxen]

25 minutes ago, Dejimon11 said:

Must I remind you that at the end of Sonic Riders they state that the Babylon Rogues are descendants of Genies then in Zero Gravity they were like "nah we're aliens instead". Not the first time the series has done something stupid before. 

A better example is the fact that Blaze literally changed her whole backstory in her second appearance, Sonic 06, when it had just been established one year prior in Sonic Rush.
I think that's the dumbest plot hole that ever happened to this franchise and this Classic Sonic situation has the terrible possibility of being even worst if they can't handle it properly.

[azoo]

@Dejimon11 True, though a few characters getting a terrible eleventh hour backstory rewrite isn't nearly of an astronomical misfire as making a nearly irreparable tear in your main moneymaker franchise's continuity, as if it doesn't matter how the series is handled due to standing behind a shield of "weelll they're technically different franchises now soooo"..

Granted, integrity hasn't been their intent for a good decade or more, but way to add insult to injury I guess lmao?

[Kintor]

8 minutes ago, Auroxen said:

A better example is the fact that Blaze literally changed her whole backstory in her second appearance, Sonic 06, when it had just been established one year prior in Sonic Rush.
I think that's the dumbest plot hole that ever happened to this franchise and this Classic Sonic situation has the terrible possibility of being even worst if they can't handle it properly.

The flip side of this is that Sonic Team might deliberately choose not to address the issue at all.

Sonic Team can just go: "This is the premise: reality is broken, classic Sonic and modern Sonic both exist at the same time now without time travel, go save the world."

This way Sonic Team can skirt-around the whole 'Sonic as two characters' idea without having to specifically acknowledge the change in canon. I call this paradox Schrodinger’s classic Sonic - simultaneously Sonic's past and a seperate character depending on how he's observed at any given moment.

[Auroxen]

6 minutes ago, Kintor said:

The flip side of this is that Sonic Team might deliberately choose not to address the issue at all.

Sonic Team can just go: "This is the premise: reality is broken, classic Sonic and modern Sonic both exist at the same time now without time travel, go save the world."

This way Sonic Team can skirt-around the whole 'Sonic as two characters' idea without having to specifically acknowledge the change in canon. I call this paradox Schrodinger’s classic Sonic - simultaneously Sonic's past and a seperate character depending on how he's observed at any given moment.

Yeah that's probably what they'll do, exactly as they've alway neglected to explain how does Blaze continue to show up if she's from another dimension / the future (also Silver, even though his appearance in Sonic Generations is only after Eggman meddled with time so that is somewhat excusable, Blaze however is already there at Sonic's party so it doesn't make sense at all).

I think that really sucks because they'll continue to break the already weakly held together Sonic Canon doing stuff like this but eh, I guess they can't be bothered with trying to figure an answer that makes at least something resembling sense.

[Kintor]

11 minutes ago, Auroxen said:

Yeah that's probably what they'll do, exactly as they've alway neglected to explain how does Blaze continue to show up if she's from another dimension / the future (also Silver, even though his appearance in Sonic Generations is only after Eggman meddled with time so that is somewhat excusable, Blaze however is already there at Sonic's party so it doesn't make sense at all).

I think that really sucks because they'll continue to break the already weakly held together Sonic Canon doing stuff like this but eh, I guess they can't be bothered with trying to figure an answer that makes at least something resembling sense.

Eh, a few major contradictions aren't going to break the canon. I mean, we've got nothing to worry about when even most organised religions get by just fine without checking their texts for internal consistency.

Seriously though, these apparent inconsistencies are actually one of the most interesting things about the Sonic franchise. There are very clear ideas about Sonic and the kind of world he inhabits, vast quantities of information compiled over the last 25 years. Yet all that information comes from contradictory sources, our idea of Sonic and the Sonic franchise as a whole is an amalgamation of everything from the games to Sega's 90s marketing material. It's a beautiful mess that somehow still mostly makes sense.

I don't envy anyone who has the task of trying to order it all as one canon narrative. The closest we've ever come is Sonic Chronicles on the DS; which for all its technical flaws still managed to put together an interesting story as Sonic's first (and only) RPG. Sometimes it makes me wistfully wonder what might have been, had BioWare's A team been put in charge of Sonic Chronicle. We could've gotten a Sonic RPG on the scale of Mass Effect or Dragon Age for the PS3/360, that would've been something to see.

[BubbleButt TV]

44 minutes ago, Auroxen said:

A better example is the fact that Blaze literally changed her whole backstory in her second appearance, Sonic 06, when it had just been established one year prior in Sonic Rush.
I think that's the dumbest plot hole that ever happened to this franchise and this Classic Sonic situation has the terrible possibility of being even worst if they can't handle it properly.

I may never get over how badly they butchered Blaze's backstory in '06. She's one of the better modern Sonic characters and they ruined her so quickly.

At least Generations' character profile acknowledges her true backstory from Sonic Rush, but they still paired her up with Silver in Colours DS and in some Generations cutscenes as some sort of weird confusing throwback to '06. Wouldn't it make more sense to pair her with Cream...?

[Auroxen]

6 minutes ago, BubbleButt TV said:

At least Generations' character profile acknowledges her true backstory from Sonic Rush, but they still paired her up with Silver in Colours DS and in some Generations cutscenes as some sort of weird confusing throwback to '06. Wouldn't it make more sense to pair her with Cream...?

Yeah that's the thing that really throws me off with Generations and Blaze, that they acknowledge her Rush backstory, then put her in Crisis City (also stating that 06 is somewhat canon) and pairing her with Silver.
It's like they couldn't resist the urge to fuck things up at least a little.

Taking this subject and making it more in topic, now that we know Silver'll be in the game, do you think they'll bother explaining why he's there?
And do you think that they could bring back Blaze and again pair her with Silver?
I really hope Blaze'll be in the game but I also REALLY hope they'll not pair her with Silver in any way, they gotta get rid of the Sonic 06 backstory once and for all.
I also hope Eggman Nega will show up but he is compatible with both the future and the other dimension (descendant of Eggman who traveled to another dimension and faked being part of it for some reason) so he can know both Silver and Blaze.

What do you think they'll do with these canon ambiguous character if they appear in Forces?

[JezMM]

10 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Eh, a few major contradictions aren't going to break the canon. I mean, we've got nothing to worry about when even most organised religions get by just fine without checking their texts for internal consistency.

A few major inconsistencies is exactly what a broken canon entails actually.  A few minor inconsistencies is fine, but even ONE major one is all it takes to shatter the sense of a consistent fictional world for the audience.

Of course, Sonic is long past that point now, but it remains frustrating when even more points of contention get added to the pile.

[Kintor]

12 minutes ago, JezMM said:

A few major inconsistencies is exactly what a broken canon entails actually.  A few minor inconsistencies is fine, but even ONE major one is all it takes to shatter the sense of a consistent fictional world for the audience.

You can't shatter that which was never whole to begin with. Ironically, the inconsistencies within the Sonic franchise have become a kind of strength. New Sonic games are able to shrug off canon changes with the kind of casual ease usually reserved for DC and Marvel.

12 minutes ago, Auroxen said:

Taking this subject and making it more in topic, now that we know Silver'll be in the game, do you think they'll bother explaining why he's there?
And do you think that they could bring back Blaze and again pair her with Silver?

Off the top of my head I suppose Sonic Team could justify Blaze's inclusion as part of the whole broken reality theme. Just say that her world was smashed together along the past and present of Sonic's world.

Including Silver though, that's actually pretty straightforward. I mean, Silver is basically the Sonic franchise's version of Trunks anyway. Dragon Ball had no trouble bringing back Trunks for Dragon Ball Super, the details changed but Trunks still had to travel back in time to prevent a post-apocalyptic future. The same can be true in Sonic Forces as well, different apocalypse but still the same old Silver.

[JezMM]

9 minutes ago, Kintor said:

You can't shatter that which was never whole to begin with. Ironically, the inconsistencies within the Sonic franchise have become a kind of strength. New Sonic games are able to shrug off canon changes with the kind of casual ease usually reserved for DC and Marvel.

 

It was though, as far as the main series was concerned (and most spin-offs didn't really clash with anything either, just the meta material, which is all decidedly non-canon). Even Shadow the Hedgehog's wild retcons never actively clashed with anything SA2 did.

And if you see it as a strength then uh... I genuinely dunno what to say but it's hardly the first idea you've put forth about the Sonic franchise that I feel seems to come from some opposite universe, speaking of clashing realities lol.

When the end result is the same as the developers just not giving a shit about canon, well, they might as well be.

[Jango]

So, erm... The story. How you guys think it's gonna open? The world already conquered by Eggman, with news flash showing the Egg Sentinels wrecking cities around the world and people asking themselves: Where is Sonic the Hedgehog?

 

Or.

 

It will open with Classic Sonic doing... Classic Sonic things in his timeline/dimension whatever they wanna call it? He meets with Classic Eggman and they fight. Before the final blow was struck, Eggman tore open a portal in time and flung Sonic into the future, where evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to the past, and undo the future that is EGGMAN.

[Auroxen]

2 minutes ago, Jango said:

So, erm... The story. How you guys think it's gonna open? The world already conquered by Eggman, with news flash showing the Egg Sentinels wrecking cities around the world and people asking themselves: Where is Sonic the Hedgehog?

Or.

It will open with Classic Sonic doing... Classic Sonic things in his timeline/dimension whatever they wanna call it? He meets with Classic Eggman and they fight. Before the final blow was struck, Eggman tore open a portal in time and flung Sonic into the future, where evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to the past, and undo the future that is EGGMAN.

I think it'll start in media res, I can still see the Modern Sonic stage we saw being the first one in the game (ignoring that Buddy rumor), and then explaining how the world got fucked up.

To be honest I hope in different stories ala Sonic Adventure, so that Modern's Story'll start as I said above, Classic's Story with Sandy Rehashed Hill Zone and Whoever the Whatever's Story... welp who knows what they'll do with them.

If there is only one story I expect the first stage to be the city on fire of Modern Sonic, then Classic's first stage then the third's.

[BubbleButt TV]

3 minutes ago, Auroxen said:

To be honest I hope in different stories ala Sonic Adventure, so that Modern's Story'll start as I said above, Classic's Story with Sandy Rehashed Hill Zone and Whoever the Whatever's Story... welp who knows what they'll do with them.

I agree, I think three main story modes would work a lot better than forcing the 3 different playstyles into one campaign.

[voltaic]

4 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

(...) It also would have been cool if they took a Sonic CD bad future approach. 

I've always liked how Palmtree Panic Bad Future looked. If Sandgreenhill Zone has already been conquered, I would have expected it to look a little more like that.

Instead of "It's green hill zone but it has sand now". But hey, we have no idea where\when that zone takes place.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

Haven't seen the Adventure style story split up since what, Sonic 06? Even Sonic Rush adventure dropped it.
I'm expecting Sonic generation's style game progression. That after Modern, Classic and Awesome Possum get their opening stages in one story driven opening sequence, you get dropped in one central hub and jump between characters to acces the next levels.

Altough if the rumors are true, and the first act of the game revolves around Bubsy the Possum to save Sonic first, then I'm wondering if most of the game will revolve around Dave the Awesome intern walking around the levels doing his thing, with Classic and Modern Sonic reduced to a few occasional Story driven bonus levels here and there. Makes sense for the player created character to take the lion's share of the game. That'd be a painful middlefinger to all the "It's called Sonic the hedgehog! I want to play as Sonic!" complainers.
Let's hope you can model the custom character into Adventure, Boom or Schoolhouse Sonic then.

[Voyant]

I just hope we don't have a brain dead story and dialogue that even 10 year me wold have been like–

"Man that was fucking dummmbbbbb..."

I'll take cheese and campy over intentionally trying to sound silly by making shitty jokes anyyyy dayyy.

This isn't just a problem with Sonic though, writers these days for cartoons seem like they are trying their best to make rebooted characters "cool" while not understanding at all why they were enjoyed in the first place.

Same reason why the new PPG is so terrible... they replaced cool shit like violence and put in fucking twerkin' as a replacement. Its the epitome of being lost in touch with a younger audience. Kids/Teens deserve better narrative and I don't think the writers behind Colors, Generations, and Lost World are going to deliver even with this title.

I'm rather confident that the world being in danger will be greatly downplayed and further ruined with shitty tone shifts and pacing. 

[Auroxen]

36 minutes ago, Eclipse said:

I've always liked how Palmtree Panic Bad Future looked. If Sandgreenhill Zone has already been conquered, I would have expected it to look a little more like that.

Instead of "It's green hill zone but it has sand now". But hey, we have no idea where\when that zone takes place.

Oh god I completely forgot about the fact that Sonic CD has the bad futures but now that you made me think about it it'd be the perfect place to draw inspiration for the stages in this game, as we have already seen what Eggman would do to the place he conquered.

I don't hate the concept that Eggman would dry all the water from Green Hill upon conquering it but now I really hope (if the stage is after the world has been conquered) that that's just the beginning of Eggman's influence over the area and not the final stadium.
I think it'd even be really cool to have a stage set in a similar place to that Green Hill at the end of the game but at the second visit it's all mechanized like the bad futures, to show that you have little time to stop Eggman or otherwise there'll be nothing to be saved.

Even though knowing SEGA that will probably not be the case... I'll still hope for something similar.