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Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"


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17 minutes ago, Fusion Runners said:

Assuming this tweet is talking about this game...?

They were talking about Sonic Mania, which has been confirmed.

Of course there's no demo for this yet, lest it would've been at the 25th Party. 

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13 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Except your point still falls apart because nothing of the core Sonic brand has come out to indicate anything of this two worlds bullshit. Literally the only thing that has used that concept is the OVA and that's it. 

Are you forgetting the fact that we can distinctly see Sonic in completely different worlds from game to game? We may not see the gate itself, but that is completely irrelevant. The fact is, Sonic jumps between two distinctly different planets in games, and we can blatantly see that.

Of course, my personal view of the Sonic games, is that I just treat each one as it's own self-contained story with no relation to other games, except in cases where it's part of a clear saga. So I view the Classic games as one saga. I view Adventure to Shadow as another saga that is pretty much a reboot that uses similar concepts to the Classics. And I view Unleashed and Lost World as their own self-contained stories because they literally have no direct connections to any other games in terms of story (and in Unleashed's case, the layout of Earth completely contradicts the layout in games like Shadow).

Aaron Webber also has this personal view on the franchise.

However, both him and I aren't condescending and entitled enough to defy Word of God when discussing what's official and canon. We have a way of looking at the franchise that's essentially a headcanon because we believe it makes more sense than the official stance, but we don't state it as fact and refute the official, internal canon just because our way of looking at it makes more sense to us. When asked what the official stance is, we state the actual official stance as it is stated in internal documents.

Literally defying official Word of God is displaying MatPat levels of defiance towards a creator.

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8 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

Are you forgetting the fact that we can distinctly see Sonic in completely different worlds from game to game? We may not see the gate itself, but that is completely irrelevant. The fact is, Sonic jumps between two distinctly different planets in games, and we can blatantly see that.

What? When? Are you talking about stuff like Little Planet, Lost Hex and the planets from Colors?

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5 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

Are you forgetting the fact that we can distinctly see Sonic in completely different worlds from game to game? We may not see the gate itself, but that is completely irrelevant. The fact is, Sonic jumps between two distinctly different planets in games, and we can blatantly see that.

Of course, my personal view of the Sonic games, is that I just treat each one as it's own self-contained story with no relation to other games, except in cases where it's part of a clear saga. So I view the Classic games as one saga. I view Adventure to Shadow as another saga that is pretty much a reboot that uses similar concepts to the Classics. And I view Unleashed and Lost World as their own self-contained stories because they literally have no direct connections to any other games in terms of story.

Aaron Webber also has this personal view on the franchise.

However, both him and I aren't condescending and entitled enough to defy Word of God when discussing what's official and canon. We have a way of looking at the franchise that's essentially a headcanon because we believe it makes more sense than the official stance, but we don't state it as fact and refute the official, internal canon just because our way of looking at it makes more sense to us. When asked what the official stance is, we state the actual official stance as it is stated in internal documents.

Literally defying official Word of God is displaying MatPat levels of defiance towards a creator.

Because I have a tendency to take this series' "Word of God" with a huge grain of salt, considering the wide amount of contradictions that's present with this series. Word of God also stated that the Storybook adventures were canon. 100%. No doubt about it. When Runners had several story moments where Sonic had no clue who any of the storybook characters were, SEGA got called out on the fact that "Word of God" stated that it was canon, and now somehow it wasn't. This lead to further "Word of God" that simply stated they happened, but Sonic just doesn't remember them.

Oh, well that solves everything right? No, actually it doesn't, because that gets contradicted even further by two things:

  • Black Knight ends literally with Sonic telling Amy about the adventure, so he clearly remembers the events of Black Knight, and Amy just believes it's bullshit to get out of a date. Sonic clearly remembers the story.
  • Generations has Sonic reference Secret Rings by telling Tails "No weirder than saving genies from a magic book". Again, clearly showing Sonic does remember both Secret Rings and Black Knight. 

So Word of God contradicted itself right here. What's stopping this from being another part where they needed a quick explanation to get out of widely differing artstyles. How does the two worlds thing explain the fact there's four different styles in the series? (Classic, Dreamcast, 06, Unleashed) unless next, Word of God's gonna go back on it's word and tell me there's actually four worlds that make ups Sonic's planet?

Also, what Marcello said.

4 minutes ago, Marcello said:

What? When? Are talking about stuff like Little Planet, Lost Hex and the planets from Colors?

Which for the record, Little Planet, Lost Hex, and the Colours Planets doesn't count as separate planets making up Sonic's world. They're just flat out different worlds that Sonic explores. 

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5 minutes ago, Marcello said:

What? When? Are talking about stuff like Little Planet, Lost Hex and the planets from Colors?

The general world in the Classic games (zany and abstract and full of animal characters) is mostly completely different to the ones in games like Adventure and Unleashed (realistic and inspired by real-life locations and concepts). They are very clearly different worlds.

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1 minute ago, ChikoLad said:

The general world in the Classic games (zany and abstract and full of animal characters) is mostly completely different to the ones in games like Adventure and Unleashed (realistic and inspired by real-life locations and concepts). They are very clearly different worlds.

 

1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

How does the two worlds thing explain the fact there's four different styles in the series? (Classic, Dreamcast, 06, Unleashed) unless next, Word of God's gonna go back on it's word and tell me there's actually four worlds that make ups Sonic's planet?

 

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4 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

The general world in the Classic games (zany and abstract and full of animal characters) is mostly completely different to the ones in games like Adventure and Unleashed (realistic and inspired by real-life locations and concepts). They are very clearly different worlds.

No they aren't. Normal and weird places can co-exist in a world. They sure as hell do in our world.

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1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Because I have a tendency to take this series' "Word of God" with a huge grain of salt, considering the wide amount of contradictions that's present with this series. Word of God also stated that the Storybook adventures were canon. 100%. No doubt about it. When Runners had several story moments where Sonic had no clue who any of the storybook characters were, SEGA got called out on the fact that "Word of God" stated that it was canon, and now somehow it wasn't. This lead to further "Word of God" that simply stated they happened, but Sonic just doesn't remember them.

Oh, well that solves everything right? No, actually it doesn't, because that gets contradicted even further by two things:

  • Black Knight ends literally with Sonic telling Amy about the adventure, so he clearly remembers the events of Black Knight, and Amy just believes it's bullshit to get out of a date. Sonic clearly remembers the story.
  • Generations has Sonic reference Secret Rings by telling Tails "No weirder than saving genies from a magic book". Again, clearly showing Sonic does remember both Secret Rings and Black Knight. 

So Word of God contradicted itself right here. What's stopping this from being another part where they needed a quick explanation to get out of widely differing artstyles. How does the two worlds thing explain the fact there's four different styles in the series? (Classic, Dreamcast, 06, Unleashed) unless next, Word of God's gonna go back on it's word and tell me there's actually four worlds that make ups Sonic's planet?

Also, what Marcello said.

Which for the record, Little Planet, Lost Hex, and the Colours Planets doesn't count as separate planets making up Sonic's world. They're just flat out different worlds that Sonic explores. 

I'm well aware Word of God makes many contradictions, it's why I opt to ignore it on a personal level. Like how you seem to.

It's still the official stance though. If someone comes up to you and asks "is it officially confirmed that it's canon that there are two worlds that Sonic jumps between?", you don't say "no, and here's why I think it isn't canon", regardless of how many contradictions there are. You say "yes, there is an internal document at SEGA that states this is the case, and employees at SEGA have also mentioned it".

2 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

 

 

How are '06 and Unleashed stylistically different to the Adventure games?

The humans are stylistically different, but that's just art direction, just like Sonic and friends changing appearance between the Classics and Adventure. The worlds are still very much realistic in each case, though, even taking direct inspiration from real-life locations and cultures.

4 minutes ago, Marcello said:

No they aren't. Normal and weird places can co-exist in a world. They sure as hell do in our world.

Last I checked, cartoony animals don't live in our world alongside the real animals. Last I checked, hills with a checkerboard rock texture aren't part of the natural earth.

There is also the fact that "normal and weird" are completely subjective things. And are irrelevant to this point.

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Just now, ChikoLad said:

Last I checked, cartoony animals don't live in our world alongside the real animals. Last I checked, hills with a checkerboard rock texture aren't part of the natural earth.

There is also the fact that "normal and weird" are completely subjective things. And are irrelevant to this point.

Yes, that's because Sonic is a cartoon character. We are not. The weird is of course going to be on another level.

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Quote

I'm well aware Word of God makes many contradictions, it's why I opt to ignore it on a personal level. Like how you seem to.

It's still the official stance though. If someone comes up to you and asks "is it officially confirmed that it's canon that there are two worlds that Sonic jumps between?", you don't say "no, and here's why I think it isn't canon", regardless of how many contradictions there are. You say "yes, there is an internal document at SEGA that states this is the case, and employees at SEGA have also mentioned it".

No, I can say that the document exists, and that's what SEGA has said, but then I can also say the other reasons that point to it being non-canon and the contradictions already present that makes the explanation BS. Word of God can claim it as canon, but I can present reasons as to why that explanation falls apart, and why Word of God shouldn't be taken at face value.

Quote

How are '06 and Unleashed stylistically different to the Adventure games?

The humans are stylistically different, but that's just art direction, just like Sonic and friends changing appearance between the Classics and Adventure. The worlds are still very much realistic in each case, though, even taking direct inspiration from real-life locations and cultures.

If you're gonna use that argument, I can simply use it against you by saying it's all one world, it's just artstyle differences between the levels and world. How about an additional contradiction for the road? Angel Island is present in Sonic Adventure. So is there two Angel Islands now on both worlds?

SA:

4b99212d43869f112d5f35a91ef97b0e.jpg

Humans that look a little realistic, but still has Sonic design aspects to at least ground them in that world.

Sonic 06:

latest?cb=20101021234609

Humans that are over the top realistic and has absolutely no design cues whatsoever to the series.

Unleashed:

Pickle.png

Humans with realistic proportions, but with designs cues and animated right out of cartoons that make it feel like how a human would actually look in a series like Sonic.

Quote

Last I checked, cartoony animals don't live in our world alongside the real animals. Last I checked, hills with a checkerboard rock texture aren't part of the natural earth.

There is also the fact that "normal and weird" are completely subjective things. And are irrelevant to this point.

Alright then, so in the real world, we have massive theme parks in the middle of space, rock structures with massive tornadoes and railings all over, and so on so forth?

And no, I'm referring to the series you're saying takes part in the *Realistic* world.

latest?cb=20120227165338 320px-Windyvalley.png

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20 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

No, I can say that the document exists, and that's what SEGA has said, but then I can also say the other reasons that point to it being non-canon and the contradictions already present that makes the explanation BS. Word of God can claim it as canon, but I can present reasons as to why that explanation falls apart, and why Word of God shouldn't be taken at face value.

No you can't.

You literally can't just re-write canon and present it as fact because it suits you, because you are not a writer or developer or otherwise affiliated with SEGA. You can point out the problems with SEGA's explanation, you can point out occasions where they contradict themselves, you can even ask or start a petition for SEGA to fix the canon. However, you CAN'T just use these contradictions to say "SEGA's official word is a lie" or anything like that. Their word is final and it can be interpreted that the things that contradict it from the past have simply been retconned (I mean they've retconned god knows how many things before, especially with manuals for the Classic games in different regions having totally different backstories and what not). You can only take their word for it, see the contradictions and realise "Sonic canon has always been pretty terrible, huh?", and then either do what I do and just view each game's story on it's own merits rather than how it links up to the larger franchise, or do something constructive like starting a petition, writing a letter to SEGA, or putting a representative from SEGA on the spot at a convention Q&A or something.

20 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Humans that look a little realistic, but still has Sonic design aspects to at least ground them in that world.

Maria doesn't have any "Sonic design" aspects, she just looks like a generic cartoon character like games such as Unleashed depict. It's just not quite as refined because of the difference in power between the two consoles. "Sonic design" are the anthro characters, with noodle arms and Mickey Mouse-inspired eyes, something none of the human characters have.

And '06 was literally touted as a reboot of the franchise in the run up to it's release. It literally has nothing to do with the games that came before or after it, and has been officially retconned by it's own ending. Even Eggman went through a realistic redesign in that game because he's a human character.

20 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Alright then, so in the real world, we have massive theme parks in the middle of space, rock structures with massive tornadoes and railings all over, and so on so forth?

And no, I'm referring to the series you're saying takes part in the *Realistic* world.

I meant the textures and visual style when I said "realistic world", and yes, both Twinkle Circuit and Windy Valley retain this. I never said anything about the level design, but that has nothing to do with the story and lore. They retain the loops and crazy moments because it wouldn't be a Sonic game without them. Windy Valley still has very obvious visual cues taken from an alpine landscape.

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15 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

No, I can say that the document exists, and that's what SEGA has said, but then I can also say the other reasons that point to it being non-canon and the contradictions already present that makes the explanation BS. Word of God can claim it as canon, but I can present reasons as to why that explanation falls apart, and why Word of God shouldn't be taken at face value.

You thinking of reasons why it falls apart is irrelevant. As of now sonic taking place in two different worlds is a fact. You finding inconsistencies changes nothing and just wastes people time when they are asking the question of where sonic takes place. On a side note it was shown in Sonic X that angel island got sucked into the human world about a quater of the way through the series.

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Just now, Indigo Rush said:

djnJ6YC.png

I seriously think that was the reason Sonic Team went out of their way to say "WE MADE COLOURS AND GENERATIONS GUYS" in that trailer, lol. :P

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From the team that made two critically acclaimed Sonic games!

 

 

 

Do you love us now?

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I have a feeling this teaser was made more for critics, investors, and casual audiences than for the fans. ST knows we fans are aware of the fact that this is obviously being made by the "A" team, so why else would they say that? Then there's Classic Sonic, the face of 80% of the Sonic merchandise you see at retail, posing for the camera. Classic was overshadowed by Modern in Generations in the eyes of all but the critics. If this was made for the fans, we wouldn't be seeing him in such a prominent role (that statement may apply to the game, depending on how much he's featured). 

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Just now, VolatileMike said:

I have a feeling this teaser was made more for critics, investors, and casual audiences than for the fans. ST knows we fans are aware of the fact that this is obviously being made by the "A" team, so why else would they say that? Then there's Classic Sonic, the face of 80% of the Sonic merchandise you see at retail, posing for the camera. Classic was overshadowed by Modern in Generations in the eyes of all but the critics. If this was made for the fans, we wouldn't be seeing him in such a prominent role (that statement may apply to the game, depending on how much he's featured). 

This is probably the case, but the only thing about it is that they also said that Project 2017 is the "game for the Modern fans" while they were hyping it up over the course of the party. Though I guess they would consider "it has Modern Sonic in it" as enough reason to say that.

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1 minute ago, ChikoLad said:

No you can't.

You literally can't just re-write canon and present it as fact because it suits you, because you are not a writer or developer or otherwise affiliated with SEGA. You can point out the problems with SEGA's explanation, you can point out occasions where they contradict themselves, you can even ask or start a petition for SEGA to fix the canon. However, you CAN'T just use these contradictions to say "SEGA's official word is a lie" or anything like that. Their word is final and it can be interpreted that the things that contradict it from the past have simply been retconned (I mean they've retconned god knows how many things before, especially with manuals for the Classic games in different regions having totally different backstories and what not). You can only take their word for it, see the contradictions and realise "Sonic canon has always been pretty terrible, huh?", and then either do what I do and just view each game's story on it's own merits rather than how it links up to the larger franchise, or do something constructive like starting a petition, writing a letter to SEGA, or putting a representative from SEGA on the spot at a convention Q&A or something.

Their word isn't very final when they've rewritten their canon multiple times before. If that's what they say is canon, it's not a very good canon when they pull it out of their ass and have many different contradictions on it. The canon of the series is a complete mess, but considering there's more points that contradict this piece of canon, and the fact we haven't seen it in an actual game yet, I still don't see it until it's implemented into the actual games. 

And before you say "It doesn't need to be in a game because Word of God says....", Word of God also changes many times, which is why I'm waiting til it's in an actual game before I consider it canon. If you want an example, there was an interview with Miyamoto around the time Wind Waker was coming out, which asked him what was the storyline of The Legend of Zelda, and he gave it. Said storyline being a linear storyline with the original Zeldas at the end, and the others at the beginning. Much like now, this caused a lot of issues and contradictions.

Later, Hyrule Historica came out, and gave the correct timeline, which later got confirmed in Hyrule Warriors. That timeline being four separate timelines where each game retrospectively takes place. One taking place before Ocarina of Time, One where Link died in Ocarina of Time, One where Child Link went back to relive his childhood, and Majora's Mask happened, and the final one occurring if Adult Link remained. 

So in this case, while Word of God claims it to be true, Because of the terrible canon Sonic already has, and the many issues presented with that explanation, I've chosen to question it, and wait til it's actually present in the games (And no, different art styles doesn't count as a canonical explanation of this in the games) before calling it canon. Honestly, it's not really that much to want to wait to see a good explanation of how it works before saying it's canon. 

11 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

Maria doesn't have any "Sonic design" aspects, she just looks like a generic cartoon character like games such as Unleashed depict. It's just not quite as refined because of the difference in power between the two consoles. "Sonic design" are the anthro characters, with noodle arms and Mickey Mouse-inspired eyes, something none of the human characters have.

And '06 was literally touted as a reboot of the franchise in the run up to it's release. It literally has nothing to do with the games that came before or after it, and has been officially retconned by it's own ending. Even Eggman went through a realistic redesign in that game because he's a human character.

Well I disagree, because I see the Adventure characters being a balance between stylistic and realistic. They have realistic proportions, and such but retains the wide eyes of Sonic characters and other visual ques. Sonic design isn't just the anthro characters either. Sonic design is an entire art style of the game, something Unleashed did well by having much more stylized characters that fit in an anthro world. 

And you might have had a point about 06, however since you're going by SEGA's canon. That point falls apart entirely by Generations, in which 06 gets reintroduced as canon to the series. It's a complete mess, and I disagree with readding it back in because it just screws around even further with the canon of the series, but there you go. Gens reintroduced 06 as part of the continuity, and not a separate reboot. Once again, another example of SEGA retconning something and causing an even worse mess than before.

15 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

I meant the textures and visual style when I said "realistic world", and yes, both Twinkle Circuit and Windy Valley retain this. I never said anything about the level design, but that has nothing to do with the story and lore. They retain the loops and crazy moments because it wouldn't be a Sonic game without them. Windy Valley still has very obvious visual cues taken from an alpine landscape.

Sonic Heroes and Shadow is also set up to take place in the same world as the Adventure series, due to Rouge's appearance and is clearly working for G.U.N, and yet it's level styles are much more similar to the Genesis titles, such as Casino Park for example. Gens goes even further by grouping Heroes as one of the Adventure era titles. There's also the previously mention fact of the Master Emerald being present in Adventure. 

17 minutes ago, Sam Sanderson Sandleberger said:

You thinking of reasons why it falls apart is irrelevant. As of now sonic taking place in two different worlds is a fact. You finding inconsistencies changes nothing and just wastes people time when they are asking the question of where sonic takes place. On a side note it was shown in Sonic X that angel island got sucked into the human world about a quater of the way through the series.

Except it hasn't been shown in the games where it takes place, and plenty of other things that SEGA have stated as canon has also never appeared in the games, and have later been contradicted and messed with. Until the games show that Sonic takes place in two different worlds, it isn't fact. The series bible can be changed and altered at anytime, and things that's stated in the bible at one point might not even make it into the games, or the canon at all. So until the games flat out say "The world is split up into two planets" I am not treating it as fact. On top of that, Generations also treats it as all one world. At this point, I think it'd be easier if we all agreed that this fucking canon is a mess.

And it's ironic that you're claiming that what I've stated is irrelevant, considering that Sonic X is a non-canon show that deliberately sets up Mobius and Earth as two separate dimensions. X is about as canon as Archie, or SatAM, or Underground, so Angel Island going into their world in X doesn't count as an explanation in the games, especially when Knuckles would have definitely mentioned it.

And don't try to claim "Maybe S3&K takes place in the Adventure world" because that gets destroyed by it having the normal Genesis level design that you claim as the main reason for why there's a distinct difference between Classic and Modern Sonic. So if you claim Angel Island is actually in a "realistic" world, then you also say that the outlandish designs and level concepts of the Genesis titles exist in the Adventure world, and therefore that means there really is both weird, and normal structures in both worlds, meaning it's very possible for the Genesis and the newer titles taking place in the same world.

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26 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

djnJ6YC.png

I don't think I have to be a prude and point out that Boom was not a Sonic Team game lol 

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Just now, Soniman said:

I don't think I have to be a prude and point out that Boom was not a Sonic Team game lol 

yep

this team had nothing to do with Boom

they also had nothing to do with 06, as that was a different 'Sonic Team' from the one from Unleashed and onward

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1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Then why would they reveal it at a party for the fans?

True. But I think he's saying that it's more a way to tell critics "hey, we aren't associated with those bad games, don't worry! we are associated with the GOOD games" 

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1 minute ago, Knuxchao said:

True. But I think he's saying that it's more a way to tell critics "hey, we aren't associated with those bad games, don't worry! we are associated with the GOOD games" 

Not really. It's more like when you're trying to attract fans. It's the same principle as a trailer of a PIxar film stating "By the same people who made The Incredibles and Toy Story". If you attach titles that the fanbase enjoyed before, it's likely to attract hype for the new game as it's developed by the same team.

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Just now, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Not really. It's more like when you're trying to attract fans. It's the same principle as a trailer of a PIxar film stating "By the same people who made The Incredibles and Toy Story". If you attach titles that the fanbase enjoyed before, it's likely to attract hype for the new game as it's developed by the same team.

Yes that is true. To be honest though it did make me even more hyped because they were proud of their product.

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6 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Not really. It's more like when you're trying to attract fans. It's the same principle as a trailer of a PIxar film stating "By the same people who made The Incredibles and Toy Story". If you attach titles that the fanbase enjoyed before, it's likely to attract hype for the new game as it's developed by the same team.

Indeed. It's good at raising expectations if nothing else.

Actually, I know this is a bit off topic, but do you guys think that Marza Animation will be doing more pre-rendered cutscenes this time? I'm not sure how likely it would be considering how they only animated a few key scenes in the more recent games, but it's something that I've thought about after watching the trailer for the 57th time yesterday.

yes, I counted and I feel like a madman for looping it so much

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