Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Chris Knopps]

14 minutes ago, Soniman said:

Green Sand Hill looks meh like everything else ive seen of this game, the wait to be dazzled continues

I wish people lay off Tomoya tho, dudes great, Sonic Team just needs to use its dozen other great composers they havee on hand

Hmm...

Maybe it's a similar situation as to past voice actors? Like... Some kind of exclusivity deal has to be obeyed to work for them? Or maybe it's an issue with the pay?

I dunno... The franchise did have everybody wanting to compose for it at one point. Not really sure what happened unless compensation went down and expectations went up at the same time turning folks off.

[Blue Blood]

14 minutes ago, Soniman said:

Green Sand Hill looks meh like everything else ive seen of this game, the wait to be dazzled continues

I wish people lay off Tomoya tho, dudes great, Sonic Team just needs to use its dozen other great composers they havee on hand

Huh? I actually don't think I've seen anyone day that they have a problem with Ohtani in general at all. And even if some have, the majority of people have been singing his praises. It's only this game's Green Hill track that's really drawing a considerable amount of ire.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

7 hours ago, Roboat06 said:

Does anyone think that the Chao Garden will ever return? I would be surprised if it returned for Forces.

Chao Gardens? HECK NO! That would be terrible in a game like Sonic Forces, and I HATE that idea.  Let's hope it won't happen.

Forces Is all about pushing that militairy war theme. How can that possibly work with a chao Garden?
That you raise and nurture baby chao's to become soldiers and then use them to fight battles for you in game?
And they shoot their tiny little machine guns and bazooka's at badniks and climb onto those enormous Eggman robots and claw their robot eyes out? That'd be...That couldn't..They.. I would...

Chao Gardens? HECK YES! THat would be AWESOME in a game like Sonic Forces, and I LOVE that idea. Let's hope it happens.



Ohtani is hit and miss for me. I think he sticks a little too much to one musical style, and as a result a lot of his songs start melting together for me. Wish the soundtrack would jump genres a bit more again. It's always when we suddenly get a diffrent sounding track, like Honeycomb's theme in Lost world, where I finally wake up and remember there's a cool soundtrack playing.

....So in THAT regard, I suppose I should be happy with Green Hill Zone's new derpy theme. At least when the rocking action music begins, there would be real jolt of energy. Kinda like the rocking snowboard theme suddenly interupting the sleepy winter music in Sonic Adventure.

[Soniman]

Just now, Blue Blood said:

Huh? I actually don't think I've seen anyone day that they have a problem with Ohtani in general at all. And even if some have, the majority of people have been singing his praises. It's only this game's Green Hill track that's really drawing a considerable amount of ire.

just something I noticed after SLW's soundtrack not setting the world on fire and hes all over the game, which continues to this.

I mean yeah, Sandy Green Hill's music is hilariously over the top and clearly not in Tomoya's element but I dont think theres much reason to worry hes becomming "stale and washed up" right now

[BlueFlare]

Visually this game looks pleasing, both classic and modern styles. It's always a nice little extra when you look at the stunning environment and it makes you feel delighted, but 3D boost Sonic is, for the most part, so fast you don't get to enjoy those visuals very often. This might sound nitpicking, but as linear as the boost stages are, I often liked to proceed slower to check out every corner and the smallest details I could find. The curse that is the unnecessary automation in the history of recent Sonic games ruins this kind of enjoyment for me. I enjoy the polished looks alot, but it never really was THE THING for me.

[Zaysho]

7 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Maybe it's a similar situation as to past voice actors? Like... Some kind of exclusivity deal has to be obeyed to work for them? Or maybe it's an issue with the pay?

What exclusivity deal? Are we still talking about Drummond claiming he had to leave his union for the job despite the fact that almost every single actor currently part of the series is a SAG actor? Because six years later, I still don't buy that shit. He probably had to give up some union benefits (which many actors, including Stephanie Sheh and Mike Pollock have done to get more work) and he didn't want to do that.

As for composers, they probably assign these things early on based on what they're looking for in a game. I don't think Sonic games are at all directed the same way they used to be with varying styles. Which is a shame because it means some artists are being underutilized at Wavemaster now.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Zaysho said:

What exclusivity deal? Are we still talking about Drummond claiming he had to leave his union for the job despite the fact that almost every single actor currently part of the series is a SAG actor? Because six years later, I still don't buy that shit. He probably had to give up some union benefits (which many actors, including Stephanie Sheh and Mike Pollock have done to get more work) and he didn't want to do that.

As for composers, they probably assign these things early on based on what they're looking for in a game. I don't think Sonic games are at all directed the same way they used to be with varying styles. Which is a shame because it means some artists are being underutilized at Wavemaster now.

Ah, yeah. Thanks much. I'd forgotten the details behind the issue but, yes, I was referring to that.

I just figured maybe SEGA wants composers to exclusively work for them if they do stuff for Sonic, just a wild guess of course.

[ChikaBoing]

1 hour ago, Zaysho said:

What exclusivity deal? Are we still talking about Drummond claiming he had to leave his union for the job despite the fact that almost every single actor currently part of the series is a SAG actor? Because six years later, I still don't buy that shit. He probably had to give up some union benefits (which many actors, including Stephanie Sheh and Mike Pollock have done to get more work) and he didn't want to do that.

As for composers, they probably assign these things early on based on what they're looking for in a game. I don't think Sonic games are at all directed the same way they used to be with varying styles. Which is a shame because it means some artists are being underutilized at Wavemaster now.

Wavemaster is not a thing anymore (it was only from 2000-2004). But they use a composer team for the Mario & Sonic games still.

They may be underutilized for Sonic - but they do other stuff either way at Sega

[Your Vest Friend]

Apparently this track is the only classic track that has this sort of sound (other classic tracks are not similar to it), so it's not even indicative of classic's overall roster of tracks if true. 

[Blue Blood]

1 hour ago, VEDJ-F said:

Apparently this track is the only classic track that has this sort of sound (other classic tracks are not similar to it), so it's not even indicative of classic's overall roster of tracks if true. 

Whether or not that holds true in the end doesn't matter. Judging what we've got so far, it's not good. Previews should be indicative of what the full and final product. Things are going to change to a degree, but previews exist to let people know what they're in for.

As has already been said, Sonic Forces is just giving constantly bad first impressions. That's subjective of course, but it's what several people here seem to think. If the game has anything better to offer than being a Generations clone with janky classic gameplay that's vastly inferior to Mania, the same tired and shallow boost gameplay for the fourth time and some pretty awful sounding faux-16bit music, SEGA is doing a good job of hiding it. 

[Dejimon11]

4 hours ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Chao Gardens? HECK NO! That would be terrible in a game like Sonic Forces, and I HATE that idea.  Let's hope it won't happen.

Forces Is all about pushing that militairy war theme. How can that possibly work with a chao Garden?
That you raise and nurture baby chao's to become soldiers and then use them to fight battles for you in game?
And they shoot their tiny little machine guns and bazooka's at badniks and climb onto those enormous Eggman robots and claw their robot eyes out? That'd be...That couldn't..They.. I would...

Chao Gardens? HECK YES! THat would be AWESOME in a game like Sonic Forces, and I LOVE that idea. Let's hope it happens.

Sonic Adventure 2's narrative was about a government conspiracy. I don't think that sounds too out of place if it was in Forces

[Roger_van_der_weide]

2 minutes ago, Dejimon11 said:

Sonic Adventure 2's narrative was about a government conspiracy. I don't think that sounds too out of place if it was in Forces

?
I was doing a joke thing, I was never really against Chao Gardens.
Or am I missing the point of your statement?

[JezMM]

Since I see a bit of confusion over the Green Hill track regarding "it's the final track but not the final mix", luckily we have some examples from past games that spell out what that might mean via bonus tracks on the Heroes and Shadow soundtracks:

Casino Park: WIP / Final

Digital Circuit: WIP / Final

Circus Park: WIP / Final

What we've heard is the WIP version for this track.  Hopefully the amount of changes are more on par with Casino Park than the Shadow tracks here, but it could be anything from minor tweaks to an overhaul of the instrumentation.

I'm on the camp that likes the melody but... regardless I still kinda hope for the "overhaul" option here.  Frankly, using Splash Hill as an example, I feel even this kind of instrumentation would fit the Classic Sonic stage (and even Sonic 4's aesthetic itself) due to the lush, 3D visuals:

While it's still much more "Modern Sonic" than Classic, the lead instruments being synthesised help ground it enough to fit fine for the "Classic-ish" aesthetic that both Sonic 4 and Generations/Forces Classic Sonic have (in their own individual ways).

[Blue Blood]

16 minutes ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

?
I was doing a joke thing, I was never really against Chao Gardens.
Or am I missing the point of your statement?

I thought you were being serious, so Deji may have thought the same.

[Kintor]

57 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

As has already been said, Sonic Forces is just giving constantly bad first impressions. That's subjective of course, but it's what several people here seem to think. If the game has anything better to offer than being a Generations clone with janky classic gameplay that's vastly inferior to Mania, the same tired and shallow boost gameplay for the fourth time and some pretty awful sounding faux-16bit music, SEGA is doing a good job of hiding it. 

I'm impressed that you've managed to fit so many clichés into a single sentence. It's a bit of a run-on sentence mind you but still an impressive grammatical feat in its own right. But I suppose that’s what happens when a discussion thread reaches over 350 pages, everybody gets a chance to refine their argument to the most salient details. Still, I can't help but notice you're trying to attack the wrong things; you must realise that all direct associations with Sonic Generations are actually a positive for Sonic Forces. People wanted to see a true sequel to Sonic Generations, to wash out the bad taste left by Lost World and Sonic Boom, now we're finally getting that game in the form of Sonic Forces.

[Indigo Rush]

And now we're realizing why wanting another Generations was kind of a bad idea. Hindsight's a cruel, waste-flinging bonobo.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

13 minutes ago, Kintor said:

People wanted to see a true sequel to Sonic Generations, to wash out the bad taste left by Lost World and Sonic Boom, now we're finally getting that game in the form of Sonic Forces.

Not me. While I don't mind more boost gameplay in concept... I wanted to see them at least open up the gameplay environment for modern Sonic so it was not still 90% a hallway simulator. And classic Sonic in Generations was fun as a one time 20th year gimmick... but not again in the exact same way, now it feels obnoxious and very unwanted as a result.

I never wanted a Sonic Generations 2.

[Kintor]

3 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

And now we're realizing why wanting another Generations was kind of a bad idea. Hindsight's a cruel, waste-flinging bonobo.

Be serious, you've never been accepting of Sonic Forces as a concept. To say that you're only now hating the idea of a 'Sonic Generations 2' is a total fabrication, a convenient fiction that doesn't reflect the reality of the situation. That reality of course being that Sonic Generations was a notable success for the Sonic franchise, loved by most Sonic fans and the general gaming community alike. Compared to the unmitigated failures of Lost World and Sonic Boom it's easy to understand exactly why Sega is returning to the successful formula that Sonic Generations brought the franchise, by refining what was achieved in Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Colours.

[Indigo Rush]

Of course I never liked the idea. That's why I used "we" to refer to the fanbase as a collective, not "I", personally; I'm presuming your assertion that people actually asked for this. We don't need your fumbling condescension (for the umpteenth bloody time) on why they chose to make a Sonic Generations rehash or why Generations was successful way back in 2011; it's still a troubled idea; Sonic Generations was a flash-in-the-pan anniversary retrospective, you can only float with that for so long. You might be slow to notice, but a lot of people here don't like the concept, not just myself; and the vocal representative who are actually excited about Forces tend to dislike Classic Sonic's inclusion. I know I'd rather him not even be here; and that's not to say anything about how the "achievements" from Unleashed and Colors are as refined as they're going to be under Sonic Team's current leadership. If anything, the level design looks like it took a dip. In an attempt to please everyone, this game is quickly becoming one of the first "technically competent" Sonic games to manage to piss everyone off in some way or another.

[Kintor]

1 minute ago, Indigo Rush said:

Of course I never liked the idea. That's why I used "we" to refer to the fanbase as a collective, not "I", personally. We don't need your fumbling condescension (for the umpteenth bloody time) on why they chose to make a Sonic Generations rehash; it's still a troubled idea; Sonic Generations was a flash-in-the-pan anniversary retrospective, you can only float with that for so long.

Then by your own admission this claim about only suddenly realising the 'truth' about Sonic Forces is indeed a fabrication, a false narrative designed to support the negative opinions you've harboured about the game since day one. Because you're wrong about Sonic Generations and what it means for the Sonic franchise. The gameplay shared by Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colours and Sonic Generations can serve as the foundation for all 3D Sonic games going forward. That the success of Sonic Forces, the manner of Sonic Generations before it, will bring an end to the era of failed experiments that Lost World and Sonic Boom represent. Going forward you should expect to see many more games that look like Sonic Generations/Sonic Forces.

[ChikaBoing]

13 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Sonic Forces is more like the course of history finally correcting itself.

What will you say if the third character has Lost World gameplay?

[Sonikko]

15 minutes ago, Kintor said:

I have taken the time to explain why your views on Sonic Generations don’t' exactly match how things actually played out during 2011 and beyond. Everything that is happening now is a direct result of Sonic Generations success. Lost World and Sonic Boom were really dangerous anomalies; Sonic Forces is more like the course of history finally correcting itself.

Sonic Forces is doing the "right thing" in the wrong way.

I would've been ok if they went back to Generations model IF they actually improved on it (or if it at the very least looked just as good as Generations did), like the classics did for each iteration. 

They literally took Generations, stripped out the physics to make it resemble Lost World, used the same kind of level design from LW for Classic Sonic.

They took Modern Sonic right out of Colours, when they had the much more refined Generations version to build upon, the character looks stiff to move, channeled in a straight path, like it was in Colours. I was never a fan of that, it tells a lot about the level design of the game in general (yeah I'm not really a fan of Colours). 

I would argue that Classic Sonic inclusion is way out of line, they shouldn't have done that, but I'd gladly accept it if it looked at the very least decent. I was ok with Classic in Generations, it was not perfect, but it was something. This version of Classic looks awful, I'd rather play Sonic 4 again over Forces Green Hill Zone, and I really don't like Sonic 4, so that's something.

tl/dr

Sonic Forces is not improving in any way over Generations, it's actually worsening just about any element Generations had, so it's not history correcting itself, it's just Sonic Team doing whatever worked the last time and not even doing it right.

[JezMM]

1 hour ago, Kintor said:

I'm impressed that you've managed to fit so many clichés into a single sentence. It's a bit of a run-on sentence mind you but still an impressive grammatical feat in its own right. But I suppose that’s what happens when a discussion thread reaches over 350 pages, everybody gets a chance to refine their argument to the most salient details. Still, I can't help but notice you're trying to attack the wrong things; you must realise that all direct associations with Sonic Generations are actually a positive for Sonic Forces. People wanted to see a true sequel to Sonic Generations, to wash out the bad taste left by Lost World and Sonic Boom, now we're finally getting that game in the form of Sonic Forces.

 

49 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Be serious, you've never been accepting of Sonic Forces as a concept. To say that you're only now hating the idea of a 'Sonic Generations 2' is a total fabrication, a convenient fiction that doesn't reflect the reality of the situation. That reality of course being that Sonic Generations was a notable success for the Sonic franchise, loved by most Sonic fans and the general gaming community alike. Compared to the unmitigated failures of Lost World and Sonic Boom it's easy to understand exactly why Sega is returning to the successful formula that Sonic Generations brought the franchise, by refining what was achieved in Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Colours.

 

35 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Then by your own admission this claim about only suddenly realising the 'truth' about Sonic Forces is indeed a fabrication, a false narrative designed to support the negative opinions you've harboured about the game since day one. Because you're wrong about Sonic Generations and what it means for the Sonic franchise. The gameplay shared by Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colours and Sonic Generations can serve as the foundation for all 3D Sonic games going forward. That the success of Sonic Forces, the manner of Sonic Generations before it, will bring an end to the era of failed experiments that Lost World and Sonic Boom represent. Going forward you should expect to see many more games that look like Sonic Generations/Sonic Forces.

 

13 minutes ago, Kintor said:

I have taken the time to explain why your views on Sonic Generations don’t' exactly match how things actually played out during 2011 and beyond. Everything that is happening now is a direct result of Sonic Generations success. Lost World and Sonic Boom were really dangerous anomalies; Sonic Forces is more like the course of history finally correcting itself.

You literally said the exact same thing over and over again four times on this page alone.  I don't understand how you think this is meant to convince anyone when they don't agree with your fundamental words.  The problem is you see it as the objective truth so there is literally nothing we can say to win you over.  Isn't it about time you accepted that and write us off as lost causes who you can't convince and stop saying the same thing over and over again?

[Kintor]

9 minutes ago, ChikaBoing said:

What will you say if the third character has Lost World gameplay?

For that you'd need Lost World's 'unique' level design, which just isn't going to happen. Everything we've seen up until this point shows a return to Sonic Generations' gameplay, both in terms of having classic and modern stages. I suspect that the third character is an actually a character creation system, which in all likelihood would adapt its gameplay from the classic and modern stages found elsewhere in Sonic Forces.

Edit:

5 minutes ago, JezMM said:

You literally said the exact same thing over and over again four times on this page alone.  I don't understand how you think this is meant to convince anyone when they don't agree with your fundamental words.  The problem is you see it as the objective truth so there is literally nothing we can say to win you over.  Isn't it about time you accepted that and write us off as lost causes who you can't convince and stop saying the same thing over and over again?

Hey, I do the best I can with the limit repertoire of arguments you provide. It wouldn't hurt for you to come up with some more original material. Rather than rehashing the same cliché attacks against Sonic Generations and its gameplay styles. 

[Jango]

They need to get Fumie Kumatani back on BGMs, I swear to Almighty GOD.

 

And Kenichi Tokoi. And Naofumi Hataya. ALL OF THEM. Even Jun, but give him a guitar FFS.