Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Graystripe2000]

Not sure if anyone posted this but, the build shown may not even be the current build. Anyone notice the differences between the footage and the screenshots? 

https://www.twitter.com/dariosamo/status/857016818925522946

[Sonikko]

5 minutes ago, Kintor said:

For that you'd need Lost World's 'unique' level design

Lost World didn't really have a unique level design, strip out the tubular gimmick and it's just Mario 3D World badly designed. Something that could easily happen for Forces, given that they're already using Lost World's level design philosophy for the 2D levels.

 

By the way, I don't think anyone here would argue that Sonic Generations was a bad game, but it's a game that happened 6 years ago, you would imagine a franchise moving forward in six years, not backwards... That's the point we're making! 

If Forces IMPROVED upon what Generations did, it would be nothing new, but it wouldn't be bad. Forces is doing what Generations did, worse. 6 years later. Nobody wants that, not even I, and I enjoyed Generations, bought it two times, got the Collector's and played it more than 100h in total.

I enjoyed Generations, 6 years ago, I don't think I'd enjoy a watered down version 6 years later.

[StaticMania]

1 minute ago, Sonikko said:

...strip out the tubular gimmick...

Why would you do this?

 

Any level that has this gimmick is designed around it, so getting rid of it is missing the point.

[ChikaBoing]

7 minutes ago, Kintor said:

For that you'd need Lost World's 'unique' level design, which just isn't going to happen. Everything we've seen up until this point shows a return to Sonic Generations' gameplay, both in terms of having classic and modern stages. I suspect that the third character is an actually a character creation system, which in all likelihood would adapt its gameplay from the classic and modern stages found elsewhere in Sonic Forces.

They said it's a gameplay style.

Overall I think the third character could be really significant in changing the opinion of the game (better or even worse)

[Kintor]

Just now, Sonikko said:

Lost World didn't really have a unique level design, strip out the tubular gimmick and it's just Mario 3D World badly designed. Something that could easily happen for Forces, given that they're already using Lost World's level design philosophy for the 2D levels.

I say unique in the context of the Sonic franchise. With the notable exception of Sonic X-treme and it's experimental 'fish-eye lens' gameplay. Even so, you won't find anything like Lost World's levels outside Lost World itself. The kind of broken unreality that made-up Lost Worlds stages simply doesn't match what we've seen so far in Sonic Forces, everything has a clearly defined sense of up and down along with solid ground to stand on.

[JezMM]

3 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Hey, I do the best I can with the limit repertoire or arguments you provide. It wouldn't hurt for you to come up with some more original material. Rather than rehashing the same cliché attacks against Sonic Generations and its gameplay styles. 

The fundamental thing people are arguing is not that Generations was bad but rather that "just doing the same thing over and over again isn't going to have the same appeal as it did the first time".

But... come to think of it, I'm seeing now why that concept doesn't really speak to you.

[Sonikko]

 

4 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Why would you do this?

 

Any level that has this gimmick is designed around it, so getting rid of it is missing the point.

You could say that about Mario Galaxy's approach to tubular level design and planetoids.

Lost World just put alternative routes on the sides of the tubes, it could've been done just the same if the levels were not tubular.

This level is a clear example of that, in the same game. It's not tubular, and it's how Windy Hill act 1 would look if it were not tubular, just a flat level with different routes on the right and on the left.

4 minutes ago, Kintor said:

I say unique in the context of the Sonic franchise. With the notable exception of Sonic X-treme and it's experimental 'fish-eye lens' gameplay. Even so, you won't find anything like Lost World's levels outside Lost World itself. The kind of broken unreality that made-up Lost Worlds stages simply doesn't match what we've seen so far in Sonic Forces, everything has a clearly defined sense of up and down along with solid ground to stand on.

 

 

I think we can safely say that they took the same approach in Forces. 

[Kintor]

3 minutes ago, ChikaBoing said:

Overall I think the third character could be really significant in changing the opinion of the game (better or even worse)

On that much we can agree on. The eventual reveal of the third character will mostly likely be a turning point for this whole discussion. Nothing seen in this thread so far is going to compare to the intense arguments that will take place on that day. Still, I think that things will work out positively in Sonic Forces favour. I can see great potential in a character creator, assuming this what the third character is actually about.

2 minutes ago, JezMM said:

The fundamental thing people are arguing is not that Generations was bad but rather that "just doing the same thing over and over again isn't going to have the same appeal as it did the first time".

But... come to think of it, I'm seeing now why that concept doesn't really speak to you.

You say: "over and over". I say: "Do the good thing we haven't seen in six years". It's been far too long between Sonic Generations and Sonic Forces for anyone to reasonable claim things are getting repetitive. Sonic Forces is a return to form.

[JezMM]

4 minutes ago, Kintor said:

You say: "over and over". I say: "Do the good thing we haven't seen in six years". It's been far too long between Sonic Generations and Sonic Forces for anyone to reasonable claim things are getting repetitive. Sonic Forces is a return to form.

Still a return to a form that most people loved only as a one-off thing.  Personally I'm totally game for a level-pack sequel to Generations but that's just my own selfish preferences talking, taking in the bigger picture I don't think it's the way forward for the franchise, and I think we're at risk of an Episode 2 situation where the world at large is just like "oh... that again?".  I fully expect Forces to just get a "yeah it's decent" reception from the world at large, and no-one outside the fanbase will really care about it because they got a Sonic fix and a half from Mania a few months before.

I can't speak as to whether the 3rd gameplay style will subvert my predictions or damage the reception further until we know exactly what it is so roll on E3.  Dear god please roll on E3.

[StaticMania]

7 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

You could say that about Mario Galaxy's approach to tubular level design and planetoids.

What's the point? Is this suppose to be negative?

9 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

Lost World just put alternative routes on the sides of the tubes, it could've been done just the same if the levels were not tubular.

This might or might not be true, but...Re-working Required. Not every level would end up being the same. They'd still have to be altered.

[Kintor]

Just now, JezMM said:

Still a return to a form that most people loved only as a one-off thing.  Personally I'm totally game for a level-pack sequel to Generations but that's just my own selfish preferences talking, taking in the bigger picture I don't think it's the way forward for the franchise, and I think we're at risk of an Episode 2 situation where the world at large is just like "oh... that again?".  I fully expect Forces to just get a "yeah it's decent" reception from the world at large, and no-one outside the fanbase will really care about it because they got a Sonic fix and a half from Mania a few months before.

Sonic Generations was never a one-off thing. I see Sonic Generations as a direct sequel to Sonic Unleashed and in turn Sonic Colours. So that would make Sonic Generations technically 'Sonic Unleashed 3' and Sonic Forces 'Sonic Unleashed 4' I suppose. The naming conventions of the Sonic franchise have never been entirely logical or informative, going for what sounds cool rather then what can be easily archived.

We were onto a good thing with Sonic Unleashed until Lost World went and ruined everything. Sonic Forces is returning to that high point for the Sonic Franchise, when each successive game did a little more to restore and redeem the reputation of the Sonic Franchise as a whole. To that end, I'm pleased that Sonic Forces and Sonic Mania are being released in the same year, two successful Sonic games in the public conscious at once will do more to fix things then any lone Sonic game.

[Sonikko]

Doing the good thing people haven't seen in six years is not how you move a franchise forward.

Imagine not being a Sonic fan for example, if you see a new Sonic game coming out and it looks just the same (or worse, I'd argue) than the last famous one that came out 6 years ago, would you even bother to check its release date?

Now imagine being a Sonic fan that's been stuck with the nostalgia pandering for the last, what, 8 years now? You see classic Sonic in the teaser, do you go "WOW IT'S CLASSIC AGAIN! YAY" or do you go "Oh no, not again!" (like I did, because I knew that at the very best we should've expected Generations level of polish for Classic, which is not enough imho. And it's not even going to get better, since Iizuka himself said that replicating Classic's physics with the modern engine is impossible, so they just went fuck all and automated it all.)...

I'm not arguing that either Classic Sonic or the Boost gameplay are bad per-se or should not come back, they are welcome, but there's plenty of room for improvement for both gameplay, and Sonic Team won't or can't improve it, so there's no reason why I, as a Sonic fan, should be excited about something I already know it's going to play worse than one game that's come out 6 years ago and that I've already played 10 times over again.

By the way, I'm a huge fan of Mania, which is doing "the same thing that was made 20 years ago" you could argue, but it is doing it in the right way. It's building on it and it's improving the formula.

4 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

What's the point? Is this suppose to be negative?

Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough.

Mario Galaxy's levels were built around the planetoid and gravity gimmick, and you can't strip that out.

Sonic Lost World's levels aren't built around that, they would work just the same if every level was just a straight plane. See the examples I posted!

[JezMM]

6 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Sonic Generations was never a one-off thing. I see Sonic Generations as a direct sequel to Sonic Unleashed and in turn Sonic Colours. So that would make Sonic Generations technically 'Sonic Unleashed 3' and Sonic Forces 'Sonic Unleashed 4' I suppose. The naming conventions of the Sonic franchise have never been entirely logical or informative, going for what sounds cool rather then what can be easily archived.

 

We were onto a good thing with Sonic Unleashed until Lost World went and ruined everything. Sonic Forces is returning to that high point for the Sonic Franchise, when each successive game did a little more to restore and redeem the reputation of the Sonic Franchise as a whole. To that end, I'm pleased that Sonic Forces and Sonic Mania are being released in the same year, two successful Sonic games in the public conscious at once will do more to fix things then any lone Sonic game.

People are talking about the mishmash of classic Sonic and Modern Sonic as the "one-off" thing.  I am "fine" with Classic Sonic coming back from a gameplay perspective because he was fine, but thematically I hate it.  I want the Modern Sonic franchise style to stand on it's own and have it's own personal space.  I, and I'm sure many others, would be so much more receptive to this game if it was just Modern Sonic and the new character.  Yeah I'd rather it just be a whole game of Modern Sonic, but as long as the new gameplay is good and enjoyable, I can accept it to bulk out the game so we get an experience longer and more exciting than Colours was, like Unleashed.

But Classic Sonic is just... ugh we don't need him here, we have Mania.  Let Modern Sonic be Modern Sonic.  Lost World at least had that going for it even if it doo-doo'd it up in other ways.

Like is this the franchise now?  Are there gonna be two Sonics in every single game?  It's stupid.

[Kintor]

2 minutes ago, JezMM said:

People are talking about the mishmash of classic Sonic and Modern Sonic as the "one-off" thing.  I am "fine" with Classic Sonic coming back from a gameplay perspective because he was fine, but thematically I hate it.  I want the Modern Sonic franchise style to stand on it's own and have it's own personal space.  I, and I'm sure many others, would be so much more receptive to this game if it was just Modern Sonic and the new character.  Yeah I'd rather it just be a whole game of Modern Sonic, but as long as the new gameplay is good and enjoyable, I can accept it to bulk out the game so we get an experience longer and more exciting than Colours was, like Unleashed.

But Classic Sonic is just... ugh we don't need him here, we have Mania.  Let Modern Sonic be Modern Sonic.  Lost World at least had that going for it even if it doo-doo'd it up in other ways.

It took an extraordinary event, the 20th anniversary, to justify classic Sonic the first time but it's not so difficult for Sonic Team this time. People are already accepting of the idea that classic Sonic and modern Sonic can both exist in the same game, without being some kind of compilation disc. That's not to reduce the appearance of  classic Sonic to the realm of the mundane but at least the idea is something common place that Sonic Team can use for future Sonic games going forward. Looking beyond Sonic Forces, future Sonic games might have classic Sonic or they might not. Nevertheless, Sonic Forces is still that necessary game needed to fix things, assuming classic Sonic would show up was always a good assumption at this point.

[Blue Blood]

I know you don't like long replies, so I'm going to keep this relatively short and sweet for you. Plus, Indigo, JezMM, Sonikko and Dreamerz have already said everything that I would have wanted to say anyway. Somehow though, you've still managed to handwave every single valid argument and then repeat the same exaggerated spiel that you've been singing now for God-knows-how-long. You just outright refuse to listen to any opinion that doesn't agree with yours. I'm going to refrain from hurling any insults your way though because I don't want the Oranges to get mad at me.

On with the show...

1 hour ago, Kintor said:

Still, I can't help but notice you're trying to attack the wrong things; you must realise that all direct associations with Sonic Generations are actually a positive for Sonic Forces. People wanted to see a true sequel to Sonic Generations, to wash out the bad taste left by Lost World and Sonic Boom, now we're finally getting that game in the form of Sonic Forces.

 

 

1 hour ago, Kintor said:

Be serious, you've never been accepting of Sonic Forces as a concept. To say that you're only now hating the idea of a 'Sonic Generations 2' is a total fabrication, a convenient fiction that doesn't reflect the reality of the situation. That reality of course being that Sonic Generations was a notable success for the Sonic franchise, loved by most Sonic fans and the general gaming community alike. Compared to the unmitigated failures of Lost World and Sonic Boom it's easy to understand exactly why Sega is returning to the successful formula that Sonic Generations brought the franchise, by refining what was achieved in Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Colours.

 

56 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Then by your own admission this claim about only suddenly realising the 'truth' about Sonic Forces is indeed a fabrication, a false narrative designed to support the negative opinions you've harboured about the game since day one. Because you're wrong about Sonic Generations and what it means for the Sonic franchise. The gameplay shared by Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colours and Sonic Generations can serve as the foundation for all 3D Sonic games going forward. That the success of Sonic Forces, the manner of Sonic Generations before it, will bring an end to the era of failed experiments that Lost World and Sonic Boom represent. Going forward you should expect to see many more games that look like Sonic Generations/Sonic Forces.

 

 

35 minutes ago, Kintor said:

I have taken the time to explain why your views on Sonic Generations don’t' exactly match how things actually played out during 2011 and beyond. Everything that is happening now is a direct result of Sonic Generations success. Lost World and Sonic Boom were really dangerous anomalies; Sonic Forces is more like the course of history finally correcting itself.

 

 

lol k

[Salamander]

48 minutes ago, Kintor said:

I have taken the time to explain why your views on Sonic Generations don’t' exactly match how things actually played out during 2011 and beyond. Everything that is happening now is a direct result of Sonic Generations success. Lost World and Sonic Boom were really dangerous anomalies; Sonic Forces is more like the course of history finally correcting itself.

The only thing that's "really dangerous" (an amusing overreaction) is the complacent attitude you're urging Sonic Team to take on.  By merely reiterating their existing successes over and over without refinement or any attempt to incorporate external criticisms, their work will become stagnant and increasingly introspective, and will fail to engage with fans or excite them with the possibility of new ideas and improvements to old ones - as we are seeing in the popular reactions to Forces.  People never want merely "the same again" from a sequel; they want the best done better and surrounded by new ideas.  I'm surprised you can't see that, given the enthusiasm you've shown for technological progress - although in fact I suspect you do see it, you're simply pruning away the inconvenient realities which interfere with the narrative you're trying to build on this forum whenever you carefully repeat exactly the same spurious claims over and over.

[Sonikko]

May I also say that they've been teasing us with Forces for over one year, and they mocked past entries in the franchise and showed confidence all over, they plain out said "It's going to be better than whatever we did in the past, quality quality dedication and reputation stuff etc". They really got my hopes up and my expectations were high.

Then I saw the teaser cg trailer, Classic showed up and my hype was crushed, I didn't expect anything new to come out from this game.

They still managed to disappoint me with the classic footage, it looks just that bad.

They didn't understand what was wrong with Generations, they didn't understand which improvements this franchise needs, they're just playing it safe for one game, hoping not to get crushed by the critics and the fans.

That's not how you don't get crushed by the critics and the fans, especially if it's what you did for the last 7 years.

 

I want to get to a point when I don't check for new footage of a Sonic game because I know it's going to be great. I almost never watch Mania's footage, after the initial showcases, because I know it's going to be awesome and I don't need to be convinced, I'll avoid spoiling the whole game and I'll enjoy it more when it comes out.

I have to check for Forces footage because I don't know what to expect anymore out of this game.

[Meta77]

People please stop acting like your thoughts are how the whole fan base thinks. Saying people were asking Sega for more generations is a damn lie cause I know I sure as hell did not.

[Kintor]

1 minute ago, FFWF said:

The only thing that's "really dangerous" (an amusing overreaction) is the complacent attitude you're urging Sonic Team to take on.  By merely reiterating their existing successes over and over without refinement or any attempt to incorporate external criticisms, their work will become stagnant and increasingly introspective, and will fail to engage with fans or excite them with the possibility of new ideas and improvements to old ones - as we are seeing in the popular reactions to Forces.  People never want merely "the same again" from a sequel; they want the best done better and surrounded by new ideas.  I'm surprised you can't see that, given the enthusiasm you've shown for technological progress - although in fact I suspect you do see it, you're simply pruning away the inconvenient realities which interfere with the narrative you're trying to build on this forum whenever you carefully repeat exactly the same spurious claims over and over.

There's nothing complacent about wanting to see the return of a better path for the Sonic franchise, one that once held so much promise for the future. Because the important thing to understand is that some futures simply aren't worth pursuing when they have already failed to catastrophically. We've already seen what the failed experiments of Lost World and Sonic Boom have brought us, nothing but shame and ruin for the whole Sonic franchise. Conversely, Sonic Forces represents the best attitudes and innovative ideas that the Sonic franchise has produced in many ideas. After all, no progress can be made without first establishing a strong foundation to work with. Sonic Forces, as the successor to Sonic Generations, is that strong foundation. Once established by the success of Sonic Forces the future of the Sonic franchise will continue to get better, giving Sonic Team the security and stability they need for further innovation.

[Sonikko]

5 minutes ago, Kintor said:

There's nothing complacent about wanting to see the return of a better path for the Sonic franchise, one that once held so much promise for the future. Because the important thing to understand is that some futures simply aren't worth pursuing when they have already failed to catastrophically. We've already seen what the failed experiments of Lost World and Sonic Boom have brought us, nothing but shame and ruin for the whole Sonic franchise. Conversely, Sonic Forces represents the best attitudes and innovative ideas that the Sonic franchise has produced in many ideas. After all, no progress can be made without first establishing a strong foundation to work with. Sonic Forces, as the successor to Sonic Generations, is that strong foundation. Once established by the success of Sonic Forces the future of the Sonic franchise will continue to get better, giving Sonic Team the security and stability they need for further innovation.

 

Since you're saying that Lost World is a disaster for the franchise and you're praising Forces so much, tell me these three levels couldn't belong in the same game, show me that classic's level is not designed like a 2D Lost World level. I'm serious, point out which section does not belong in Lost World, and vice-versa.

[Indigo Rush]

4 minutes ago, Kintor said:

We've already seen what the failed experiments of Lost World and Sonic Boom have brought us, nothing but shame and ruin for the whole Sonic franchise. 

Wait, really? Hang on this is a new one. I think I'll actually pay attention this time.

[Kintor]

1 minute ago, Sonikko said:

Since you're saying that Lost World is a disaster for the franchise and you're praising Forces so much, tell me these two levels couldn't belong in the same game, show me that classic's level is not designed like a 2D Lost World level. I'm serious, point out which section does not belong in Lost World, and vice-versa.

You've still got that whole broken unreality thing going on in Lost World, that level design couldn't exist in anything but Lost Word. At least Sonic Forces is keeping more 'hyper real', some surreal details but still taking place on a physical world with clearly defined rules about how everything works and holds together. Much nicer than anything Lost World attempted.

[Sonikko]

1 minute ago, Kintor said:

You've still got that whole broken unreality thing going on in Lost World, that level design couldn't exist in anything but Lost Word. At least Sonic Forces is keeping more 'hyper real', some surreal details but still taking place on a physical world with clearly defined rules about how everything works and holds together. Much nicer than anything Lost World attempted.

How is that going to influence how the level plays or is designed in the first place?

I don't get what you mean. Lost World's 2D levels especially are flat, some of them may have the backgroud rotate, but it's not like it changes anything.

 

Besides I asked you to point out which elements in Sonic Forces classic level do not look like they would belong in Sonic Lost World.

That level surely does not belong in Generations.

[Kintor]

3 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

How is that going to influence how the level plays or is designed in the first place?

I don't get what you mean. Lost World's 2D levels especially are flat, some of them may have the backgroud rotate, but it's not like it changes anything.

Lost World feels like a very different game to the classic Sonic stage seen in Sonic Forces. That level in Lost World is completely divorced from any kind of reality, just a bunch of oversized sweats floating in space but at the same time no real sense of scale. While Sonic Forces does a much better job of getting that 'hyper real' tone right, where things are more real than real: everything works like a physical world, just with a few extra details to make it cooler. This means that classic Green Hill Zone in Sonic Forces feels like a proper Sonic stage, while Lost World simply doesn't.

[Sonikko]

Just now, Kintor said:

Lost World feels like a very different game to the classic Sonic stage seen in Sonic Forces. That level in Lost World is completely divorced from any kind of reality, just a bunch of oversized sweats floating in space but at the same time no real sense of scale. While Sonic Forces does a much better job of getting that 'hyper real' tone right, where things are more real than real: everything works like a physical world, just with a few extra details to make it cooler. This means that classic Green Hill Zone in Sonic Forces feels like a proper Sonic stage, while Lost World simply doesn't.

I'm not talking about how the level looks. We're all arguing about how the game plays. It's a different matter. The fact that Lost World's level is set in a candy universe thing and that Forces' level is set in a somewhat more realistic GHZ does not change that the LEVEL DESIGN is virtually the same. The way the level is shaped, the enemy placement, the design philosophy behind it. 
Did I make what I mean clear? I'm not sure we're understanding each other well.