Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Salamander]

10 minutes ago, Kintor said:

There's nothing complacent about wanting to see the return of a better path for the Sonic franchise, one that once held so much promise for the future. Because the important thing to understand is that some futures simply aren't worth pursuing when they have already failed to catastrophically. We've already seen what the failed experiments of Lost World and Sonic Boom have brought us, nothing but shame and ruin for the whole Sonic franchise. Conversely, Sonic Forces represents the best attitudes and innovative ideas that the Sonic franchise has produced in many ideas. After all, no progress can be made without first establishing a strong foundation to work with. Sonic Forces, as the successor to Sonic Generations, is that strong foundation. Once established by the success of Sonic Forces the future of the Sonic franchise will continue to get better, giving Sonic Team the security and stability they need for further innovation.

There is everything complacent about telling Sonic Team not to bother with coming up with new ideas or fixing what's broken.  Sonic Forces is the same game with the same ideas as six years ago.  We have Modern Sonic's simplistic boost gameplay, and Classic Sonic's ineptly staged physics with no depth.  We have Green Hill Zone, and we have a burning city.  There are no "innovative ideas" here, nor is blind repetition without innovation the best attitude for anything but stagnancy and failure.  Already, there is hugely less enthusiasm and interest for Forces than there was for Generations.  People have already played this game.

The fact is, nobody was ever excited for a retread of Generations; nobody wanted a literal "Generations 2."  They wanted a game which built on Generations' successes, rather than Generations with a different (still old!) coat of paint.  And you're telling us that even now, after Unleashed, Colours, Generations - Forces is still only a foundation for something new?  This is the same line Sonic Team's PR spins whenever anyone asks about other playable characters, that they have to get Sonic's gameplay right first.  The fact is, they're just wheeling out the same tired idea over and over because they either don't have the inspiration or don't have the energy for anything new and better.  That's the real reason why Lost World failed - because Sonic Team couldn't be bothered to give their new idea the attention it deserved, couldn't be bothered to iron out the flaws.  The failure of that game is all on them.  Luckily for them, far from having brought "shame and ruin" to the franchise, Lost World and the Boom subfranchise they oversaw have simply been forgotten already, just more ordinary failures as expected from the developer that came up with Shadow and '06.  Even Generations succeeded only because it appealed to fans' nostalgia with references to a time when Sonic was not a defeated franchise.

[Kintor]

Just now, Sonikko said:

I'm not talking about how the level looks. We're all arguing about how the game plays. It's a different matter. The fact that Lost World's level is set in a candy universe thing and that Forces' level is set in a somewhat more realistic GHZ does not change that the LEVEL DESIGN is virtually the same. The way the level is shaped, the enemy placement, the design philosophy behind it. 
Did I make what I mean clear? I'm not sure we're understanding each other well.

I understand what you're getting at; I just think there's more to level design then pure gameplay mechanics. A big part of video games is always about how they create the impression of an actual space that technically only exists as a virtual environment. The Green Hill Zone in Sonic Forces just has a lot more care and attention to detail put into it that Lost World. Green Hill Zone feels right when you look at it, Lost World doesn't.

[Sonikko]

Just now, Kintor said:

I understand what you're getting at; I just think there's more to level design then pure gameplay mechanics. A big part of video games is always about how they create the impression of an actual space that technically only exists as a virtual environment. The Green Hill Zone in Sonic Forces just has a lot more care and attention to detail put into it that Lost World. Green Hill Zone feels right when you look at it, Lost World doesn't.

Sure, but that's not what we're discussing about at all. 

Personally I don't enjoy Forces' mishmash of styles, I really liked Lost World and I really liked Generations visual styles, but they do not work that well together imho.

But how about the level actually plays? I want to understand your opinion on that, you're dodging my question with every post.

[Graystripe2000]

This is going to get to the point where the thread is going to get locked again isn't it?

[Kintor]

3 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

Sure, but that's not what we're discussing about at all. 

Personally I don't enjoy Forces' mishmash of styles, I really liked Lost World and I really liked Generations visual styles, but they do not work that well together imho.

But how about the level actually plays? I want to understand your opinion on that, you're dodging my question with every post.

What I'm saying is that you can't compare Sonic Forces to Lost World; they deliberately have nothing in common. Lost World was a dead end, never to be repeated. The kind of atmosphere that classic Green Hill Zone creates is totally different to anything seen in Lost World, for this reason they will feel and play like completely different games.

[Gabz Girl]

This is getting me more and more concerned about that third gameplay style and new character. It's either going to be this amazing, revolutionary gameplay that everybody loves and praises Sonic Team for or...well, it could end up being shit and Sonic will become even more of a laughing stock than he already is. I really, REALLY don't want the latter to happen!

E3 can't come soon enough...

[Sonikko]

Just now, Kintor said:

What I'm saying is that you can't compare Sonic Forces to Lost World; they deliberately have nothing in common. Lost World was a dead end, never to be repeated. The kind of atmosphere that classic Green Hill Zone creates is totally different to anything seen in Lost World, for this reason they will feel and play like completely different games.

Since you don't want to answer I think it's not useful to continue this conversation, let's move the topic forward.

 

I personally don't hate Forces Green Hill music, it sounds "demoish" but it's not the final mix yet, so things could change. I could do without those scratchy synths, but the melody itself is not bad. The way they mixed it, it sounds more like something that you could hear in a Special Stage, but I'm confident they can fix that, Ohtani is good at what he does.

I'm more concerned about how everything we've seen so far is still in such an early state when the game is coming out in a few months.

[JezMM]

1 minute ago, Sonikko said:

I'm more concerned about how everything we've seen so far is still in such an early state when the game is coming out in a few months.

This isn't at all an early state, stuff like aesthetics and music can be altered quite far along in development, and often aren't integrated as such at all until level design is fairly set in stone.  It's part of why people are so concerned for the gameplay, that stuff is probably not going to change much at all now, but music can be tweaked a fair bit.  I actually wonder if Ohtani's going to take the critique on board since he's been so actively involved with social media these days.

[Kintor]

Just now, Sonikko said:

Since you don't want to answer I think it's not useful to continue this conversation, let's move the topic forward.

 

I personally don't hate Forces Green Hill music, it sounds "demoish" but it's not the final mix yet, so things could change. I could do without those scratchy synths, but the melody itself is not bad. The way they mixed it, it sounds more like something that you could hear in a Special Stage, but I'm confident they can fix that, Ohtani is good at what he does.

I'm more concerned about how everything we've seen so far is still in such an early state when the game is coming out in a few months.

Eh, I gave you a fair answer to how Sonic Forces and Lost world are different. Tone plays a bigger part in how game is perceived then you might think at first glance.

Anyway, in response to you questions about the music. I do think that Sonic Team will be able to improve upon what has been heard in this version of the stage. Music is something can be reworked independently of the level design itself. So tweaking the music shouldn't have a negative impatct on getting Sonic Forces released on time.

[Blue Blood]

Just now, JezMM said:

This isn't at all an early state, stuff like aesthetics and music can be altered quite far along in development, and often aren't integrated as such at all until level design is fairly set in stone.  It's part of why people are so concerned for the gameplay, that stuff is probably not going to change much at all now, but music can be tweaked a fair bit.  I actually wonder if Ohtani's going to take the critique on board since he's been so actively involved with social media these days.

 

Well said and true, though I am a bit perplexed about Sonic's detached arms and muzzle. Those are some weird animation quirks that probably won't be very visible, but ought to be fixed all the same.

[Sonikko]

3 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Well said and true, though I am a bit perplexed about Sonic's detached arms and muzzle. Those are some weird animation quirks that probably won't be very visible, but ought to be fixed all the same.

I think that Modern Sonic's animations are far from being done, look at the way he runs, no way it's the final animation. It looks stiffer than Colours, and that's technically 2 generations ago, so I have faith that those things will at least get fixed.

But I agree with you, it's perplexing.

I feel like they were not ready at all to show the game, but they felt forced (lol) because we were being vocal about it.

My question is, does this game feel like they already worked 3 years on it? Not to me, it looks like they just started working on the game last summer, after showing us the CG. I don't know what to think.

[Blue Blood]

Just now, Sonikko said:

I think that Modern Sonic's animations are far from being done, look at the way he runs, no way it's the final animation. It looks stiffer than Colours, and that's technically 2 generations ago, so I have faith that those things will at least get fixed.

 

Most of his animations appear to be lifted straight from Lost World, which kind of makes sense. The running animation is no exception. With the lower camera angle in Forces and lack of the wheel-o-feet effect, it looks really weird. I'm not exactly sure that's going to change much, if at all. I don't doubt that the animations are a work in progress though; he's only got one pose after homing on an enemy for example, and spins endlessly after going through boost rings.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

4 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

My question is, does this game feel like they already worked 3 years on it? Not to me, it looks like they just started working on the game last summer, after showing us the CG. I don't know what to think.

From what I've read it's been 5 years. Definitely not seeing the results so far.

[Plinius]

Hey guys, I'm new here lol.

I think Generations is a really good game; greatly underrated by most critics! If the game is half as good as Generations then I'll feel like a winner 

The footage so far hasn't lived up to Generation's high standards but I have high hopes for Sonic Team . Hopefully this will be the Generations 2 I've always dreamed of

[ChikaBoing]

Just now, Lord-Dreamerz said:

From what I've read it's been 5 years. Definitely not seeing the results so far.

4 years, since Lost World. In a span of 2 years they made Colors and Generations, and afterwards the result of 2 years of work was just Sonic Lost World. So, if we do the math, we might just get a game that is twice as good as Lost World.

[Sonikko]

3 minutes ago, Plinius said:

Hey guys, I'm new here lol.

I think Generations is a really good game; greatly underrated by most critics! If the game is half as good as Generations then I'll feel like a winner 

The footage so far hasn't lived up to Generation's high standards but I have high hopes for Sonic Team . Hopefully this will be the Generations 2 I've always dreamed of

Welcome! We all hope so hahahah!

 

I really hope this game does not feel rushed when it comes out, the last batch of games we got from Sonic Team all felt like a finished product, even if they had some design issues here and there, they felt like they nailed what they were going for.

[Celestia]

I wouldn't be surprised if the timeline of events went something like:

• Development starts in 2013/2014, I assume it's just conceptual stuff at this point
• Boom happens and puts things on hold (probably for longer than Sonic Team expected, at least)
• Conceptual stuff was still happening, maybe
• Actual development of the game's engine and so on started later--late 2014? 2015??

Who knows how these things actually went down behind the scenes, but hey, here's a rough guess.

[Ayliffe]

36 minutes ago, Celestia said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the timeline of events went something like:

• Development starts in 2013/2014, I assume it's just conceptual stuff at this point
• Boom happens and puts things on hold (probably for longer than Sonic Team expected, at least)
• Conceptual stuff was still happening, maybe
• Actual development of the game's engine and so on started later--late 2014? 2015??

Who knows how these things actually went down behind the scenes, but hey, here's a rough guess.

Yeah, I seriously wouldn't be surprised if they were originally gunning for this to be released last year before it got pushed back to the end of this year. Forces originally being an anniversary game probably explains why classic is here too, by the time the game got delayed it was simply just too late in development to remove him or somethin'.

[pppp]

Honestly, to me, It seems like they were indeed gonna make Generations 2, but then someone at Sega noticed that people wanted more characters and an actual plot, so they haphazardly created a 3rd gameplay style, applied the idea of Satam to their plot and mushed it with the Generations 2 they were making, hence why Green Hill and Burning City look like they came from different games.

I'm just guessing obviously, but that's what my instincts are telling me.

[Chris Knopps]

7 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

Apparently this track is the only classic track that has this sort of sound (other classic tracks are not similar to it), so it's not even indicative of classic's overall roster of tracks if true. 

If it's the only track that sounds like this you'd think they'd go way more above and beyond to make it stand out more than any other as possible as a real tribute to the 90's but as it stands I feel it's the one track I'll be the most excited to get over with.

[Meta77]

2 hours ago, Plinius said:

Hey guys, I'm new here lol.

I think Generations is a really good game; greatly underrated by most critics! If the game is half as good as Generations then I'll feel like a winner 

The footage so far hasn't lived up to Generation's high standards but I have high hopes for Sonic Team . Hopefully this will be the Generations 2 I've always dreamed of

You'll feel like winner.  I won't.  generations was a shallow bore noting more than a recap for those of us that grew up with sonic since genesis days.  generations high standards? ......am.... ..am I missing something. Least I can see the fans Sega looked at for feedback to make this game.  thankfully after this Sega will get over this generations mess for anniversary games and make a true 3d game without trying to pick bits from different sonic styles to name a game. Keep mania format and keep 3d sonic as himself.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Meta77 said:

You'll feel like winner.  I won't.  generations was a shallow bore noting more than a recap for those of us that grew up with sonic since genesis days.  generations high standards? ......am.... ..am I missing something. Least I can see the fans Sega looked at for feedback to make this game.  thankfully after this srha will get over this generations mess for anniversary games and make a true 3d game without trying to pick bits from different sonic styles to name a game. Keep mania format and keep 3d sonic as himself.

After all the fairly universal backlash asides from whatever media outlet perhaps that eat up anything 2D and classic feeling/looking it's probably a safe bet to say this COULD be the end of SEGA's nostalgia days.

I wanna get a new Adventure and Unleashed type of beginning for the next era. Both games were big and new, I want that again.

[Meta77]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

After all the fairly universal backlash asides from whatever media outlet perhaps that eat up anything 2D and classic feeling/looking it's probably a safe bet to say this COULD be the end of SEGA's nostalgia days.

I wanna get a new Adventure and Unleashed type of beginning for the next era. Both games were big and new, I want that again.

Well remember the reaction at sonic party even after forces reveal didn't fans moan they were not thinking of SA3 atm? . I'd like to see a breath of the wild hyped and polished game with a sonic adventure game. Free running. But I think Sega doesn't know how to make one anymore

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

After all the fairly universal backlash asides from whatever media outlet perhaps that eat up anything 2D and classic feeling/looking it's probably a safe bet to say this COULD be the end of SEGA's nostalgia days.

I wanna get a new Adventure and Unleashed type of beginning for the next era. Both games were big and new, I want that again.

Well remember the reaction at sonic party even after forces reveal didn't fans moan they were not thinking of SA3 atm? . I'd like to see a breath of the wild hyped and polished game with a sonic adventure game. Free running. But I think Sega doesn't know how to make one anymore

[Chris Knopps]

6 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Well remember the reaction at sonic party even after forces reveal didn't fans moan they were not thinking of SA3 atm? . I'd like to see a breath of the wild hyped and polished game with a sonic adventure game. Free running. But I think Sega doesn't know how to make one anymore.

I'm kind of among the crowd that thinks a Sonic Adventure 3 title will be the companies ultimate final resort, the all or nothing title when the franchise hits the absolute lowest point possible. Until that happens, I doubt they'll play that card until every card in their deck is nothing but ashes.

Though the way they keep bringing back the Adventure name ala World Adventure and Runners Adventure it's not hard to say they might be reaching that point, and given responses to Forces thus far, they could be down to their last card or two, who knows?

Forces will likely determine a lot of things after launch, but I do feel it's certainly telling SEGA that the nostalgia card is fried, especially since they revealed an entire stage from Green Hill despite how far off it clearly looks from completion and even sounds just as far off, something about what they did says there's a bit of concern happening.

[Dr. Detective]

4 hours ago, Gabz Girl said:

This is getting me more and more concerned about that third gameplay style and new character. It's either going to be this amazing, revolutionary gameplay that everybody loves and praises Sonic Team for or...well, it could end up being shit and Sonic will become even more of a laughing stock than he already is. I really, REALLY don't want the latter to happen!

E3 can't come soon enough...

Usually when a game company has something on the back burner that it wants its audience to wait and see the results of, it's a cause for positive anticipation for it from being excited about what it is. However, with us, it's generally the opposite where they tell us something that's a cause for concern and so the grace period of waiting just has the pit of your stomach doing back-flips until the revelation.

Because isn't that what being a Sonic fan is all about right now? Feeling like you're in danger of being fucked over ALL of the time?