Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Diogenes]

9 minutes ago, Nuggets said:

(does anyone else think it's weird that SEGA keeps forcing in another gameplay style with the boost tho, be it Werehog, Classic Sonic, or an abundance of 2D platforming (Colors was barely a 3D game)? Its like they have no confidence in letting it just stand on its own)

It's not necessarily that they aren't confident in it, but that it's such a costly style to make. You travel huge distances in seconds at boost speed, but they still have to spend time and energy filling all that space. Boost games are already pretty short even with alternate styles and 2D sections padding them out, and they'd only get shorter if they tried to trade them out for more boost content.

One reason among many that the style is a dead end.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

Far as the worth of the Sonic Adventure's go, I tend to think it's more their energy and passion is their true worth, not the technical execution. They survive as an emotion in time, not a timeless exhibit in a museum.
It's Woodstock, man. Rock and Roll magic for those who were there, a puddle of mud in the middle of nowhere for those who weren't.
So if your hypothetical Sonic Adventure 3 would be the solution to the problem and be the perfect timeless Sonic game, then it's doing a terrible job at being Sonic Adventure. Rock and Roll is not meant to last, it's meant to live wild and die young.


I'm surprised Generation's reputation is falling. I figured that'd be the closest we get to a solid SonicTeam Sonic game. It even managed to more or less take all the best parts of Classic/ Adventure and Modern gameplay (Minus the physics I suppose) and merge them together to a cohesive whole.
An impressive feat.
Alas, I fear Generations might be suffering the same fate as Sonic Adventure 2 did, that besides being judged on it's own (admittingly wonky) merits, it's also being judged as the enforcer of an unpleasant trend. SA2 is blamed to a degree for Shadow and Sonic 06 and that starts weighing on it's reputation as well, and I'm sure Generations is now being blamed for all the Nostalgia obsession games.
It's not fair, but that's how the world rolls.


Either way, I'm baffled why so many people look for perfection in a Sonic game. Sonic games is like going to a themepark, far as I'm concerned. Yeah, you'll be waiting in line. Yeah, your favorite attraction happens to be closed down because of technical difficulities. Yeah, the food is expensive, and someone puked on the pathway. But eventually you'll find your way to an awesome rollercoaster, and have the time of your life. To me, it's not about what's wrong with a Sonic game, it's about whether the awesome parts are so good that you don't mind the bad parts anymore.

Of course, Sonic Mania is well on it's way to possibly prove me wrong. That game does have the ambition to become a timeless classic, and being well executed.
Altough I fear it's super reliance on older zones will cost it some points. The people who love the game will not care, but it will always be an easy weapon for people opposed to the classic gameplay to knock it down a peg. Not to mention the bad timing, the whole Nostalgia bubble is bursting in general. The new Star Wars movies already suffered from this, and they were a lot more subtle and smart about their usage of Nostalgia then Sonic ever was. So, as far as Sonic Mania reaching a timeless super classic entitie goes, I fear not. Let's hope Mania does well, then get's a sequel and that sequel is allowed to fully stand on it's own merits.
For now, let's just take it as a fun game, and God forbid, maybe an inspiration for Sonic Team Senpai to be more focused in the future.


Far as the main Sonic team games are concerned, forget about it.  I don't get the sense they're ever interested in tighting things up. Sonic Team comes across to me like Leonardo Da Vinci, filled with ideas and too restless to ever see one come to it's proper conclusion.
I wish Sega would let Sonic Team make half a game, then boot them out of the office and let a more disciplined team finish up. Oh well.
Best not worry whether Forces will be perfect, or even Great. The real question is if they manage to include enough cool bits to make it worth sitting trough a couple mistakes. In the end, that's the healthiest aproach to Sonic.

 

[azoo]

4 hours ago, Waveshocker Sigma said:

Okay. So the game "just' has to be good enough for people to love for years and years to come.

Well, that just leaves us with a much bigger problem and loaded question that will probably have multiple clashing answers:

How?

Exactly how does a 3D Sonic game need to be made, structured, designed and formatted to where it's gameplay will receive that love from the general gaming public while also appeasing the majority of it's incredibly varied and nitpicky fanbase?

What's something that almost everyone here can agree on that they'd want and enjoy?

Please don't say "just make it good" unironically. That may technically be an answer, it sure isn't insightful one that teaches anyone anything. (In other words, just because you're correct, doesn't mean you're right.)

I'll just immediately add fuel to the fire with something not everyone will agree with and say I'd enjoy a game made like Sonic Utopia above anything else the series has previously offered. Simple reasoning for why can be found in this lazy copypasta from a status I made last night after playing it for 4 hours.

  Reveal hidden contents

Today, I played a little Generations and remembered why I liked the game. Then I played Utopia right after and completely forgot because of how much more fun I was having with it. 3 or 4 hours alter, I've just stopped and I already wanna go back to playing it.

Good lord, Utopia is just super fun to play around in. I usually only focus on getting to the end of a stage quickly in Sonic games but Utopia is the first one I've ever played that made me want to actively play completely different from usual and just keep running, jumping, bouncing, flying and speeding off of every floor, hill and incline I could find. I'd seriously love a full game like this. Even if it ended up being something other than reaching the goal in every stage.

Heck, I could even see a Super Mario 64 style mission-based game working around stages like these just because of how much find you could having messing around still feel like you're playing what most people consider to be a "Sonic game".

But yeah. That's all. Just revisiting Sonic Utopia and yammering about how much fun it is. I like fun things. They make me feel happy. o o

...This is way too long for a status message that no one is going to read, though. lol

Dear Sega, how to make a Sonic game the majority of everyone would enjoy, in six reasonably easy steps:

1 ) Do not center a game's mechanics on something that will run dry quickly. Boost gameplay is fun, but it's probably the franchise's biggest problem for this very reason. Not only does it make for a game without much depth beyond mastering your reaction times, but also requires the developers to make too much level design / assets / content for stages that are 3-5 minutes long in length, in a game that with that alone would be roughly less than an hour long. Which brings us to..

2 ) Do not resort to alternate gameplay styles, but do use other characters. I'm sure the biggest reason Sega keeps coming to this decision is simply because they need a way to pad out the game, as well as showcase better the content that they slaved over (only for the boost style to speed past it in 3 seconds). But regardless, no one walks into these games wanting to play different styles, and if they do then they're probably confused as to what kind of game they want to play.

What you should do instead is give the player the option to play as other characters, because noone likes when you resort to giving us like three Sonics. For starters, take a page out of how Mania's doing it and give us the Triple Threat or something. And HEY, speaking of Mania..

3 ) Reevaluate the core of your franchise's gameplay. No, not "speed", that's not a good answer. You wanna be that good good like your old peers, Zelda and Mario? Then revisit the mechanics that made your games work at the primetime of your franchise's life and actually do something with them, ya fucking dingus! 

Make Sonic roll again, he's a gosh darn hedgehog for chrissakes! And center the gameplay around that good ol' mo. Keep it simple, stupids. Just make your base sauce on this pizza be where Sonic uses slopes to pick up speed, and then rolling exaggerates that, and because you're a ball half the time you're kinda bouncy. Easy as shit, and everyone on God's green earth with a taste for good games loves it (or at least would be okay with it), so stop being dumb!

And don't act like it's hard to do, because your first 3D game (Sonic Adventure) did it! And speaking of that..

4 ) Stop automating your dang games, you trash emporium of a video game company. Everyone forgave you for it in the first one or two 3D games because you (and everyone else) were learning the ropes on how to make games in a new dimension.

You've kept the crutch on for the past nearly 20 years now though, and it's only become apparent to ANYONE with eyes that it's a seriously awful idea to try to tout a franchise as an exhilarating example of speed and freedom whenever the player is not allowed ever to have control over their own movement in an area where it matters! Loops and big hills are obstacles / level geometry, not something to claim on your paycheck!

 5 ) Give the player a sense of adventure. This is gonna be a rather controversial statement, but I don't think Sonic needs very complex or extremely well-written stories, no. Because let's be frank, the Adventure games didn't keep us gripped because of any sort of compelling writing.

No, what Sonic excels at is the sense of adventure to his games, and if you take that out (like it has been quite a lot lately) then the fun is absent. Where's the excitement without feeling like you're progressing in a plot? The story should be where you're constantly traveling, discovering new things, encountering dangers that only escalate as the game goes on, and stakes that are raised at every turn. Make the tension between you and the Eggman Empire MEAN something.

If there are no characters, no progression, not even the lightest bit of lore, then why would fans be so inclined to keep caring and progress? I mean, if your game was too good to drop, then sure, but knowing your past I wouldn't put my eggs in that basket.

6 ) Just put a lot of content into it. You got a lot of time left to fill in the blanks of the game with whatever else? Then if you're not polishing the game, put in new modes and random shit, I don't care.

Missions, special stages, interacting with NPCs, multiplayer, chao gardens, collectables that give you unlockable art or music or videos or whatever, hell put in a kart racing mode or a mini golf mode or I don't care just do something that'll make me want to come back and play longer than the half hour it'll take to run through stages I wanna replay! 

----------

I'm not even joking in saying that if a game came out that covered at least FIVE out of six of these bases, the grand majority would be happy. But will Sonic Team do any of these? Lol, nah. 

See y'all at E3.

[Indigo Rush]

You forgot to add the second Sonic. How can I enjoy a Sonic game if there aren't at least two of them in it???

 

(Azoo is absolutely right)

[JosepHenry]

Azoo, please send a letter to Sonic Team with this single post. Please.

Don't even remove the insults, leave them as they are.

 

I'm pretty sure 90% of the fanbase can agree with you.

[Bobnik]

Soooo basically make Green Hill Paradise Act 2, but a full game...

I wouldn't mind. Not that I hate what I saw about Forces, but yeah, something like that would be neat.

[Alienrun]

1 hour ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Far as the worth of the Sonic Adventure's go, I tend to think it's more their energy and passion is their true worth, not the technical execution. They survive as an emotion in time, not a timeless exhibit in a museum.
It's Woodstock, man. Rock and Roll magic for those who were there, a puddle of mud in the middle of nowhere for those who weren't.
So if your hypothetical Sonic Adventure 3 would be the solution to the problem and be the perfect timeless Sonic game, then it's doing a terrible job at being Sonic Adventure. Rock and Roll is not meant to last, it's meant to live wild and die young.


I'm surprised Generation's reputation is falling. I figured that'd be the closest we get to a solid SonicTeam Sonic game. It even managed to more or less take all the best parts of Classic/ Adventure and Modern gameplay (Minus the physics I suppose) and merge them together to a cohesive whole.
An impressive feat.
Alas, I fear Generations might be suffering the same fate as Sonic Adventure 2 did, that besides being judged on it's own (admittingly wonky) merits, it's also being judged as the enforcer of an unpleasant trend. SA2 is blamed to a degree for Shadow and Sonic 06 and that starts weighing on it's reputation as well, and I'm sure Generations is now being blamed for all the Nostalgia obsession games.
It's not fair, but that's how the world rolls.
 

I agree with that first paragraph regarding how the adventure games are viewed...its the novelty of what they were that keeps people comming back tbh.

Regarding that second paragraph, I can kinda see what you mean but its not 100% correct. People (right now for example) aren't really saying that Gens was crap just because of Forces. They are saying that it inspired Sega to be more lazy with they're approach in how they are marketing they're games (lets be honest...that's what most of us here are mad at) alongside the usual "boost 2 win" complaints. Not sure a lot of people are saying its a bad game though or that too many people are saying its a lot worse than before (maybe, its hard to tell)

Though to be fair if we're gonna put the blame on sega being lazy with "coming up with new ideas" and Nostalgia Whoring...I think Sonic 4 is a much better suited target.

 

Finally regarding that whole "It's meant to live wild and die young" that would make sense if Sonic...you know, evolved a bit. (part of the reason people are wanting to go back to the 06 days ironically)

The problem with this statement is that your essentially giving up on the idea of reinventing sonic and making the idea better...making it more than just "hold right to win"...that's what sonic is, but how many people want sonic to STAY that way...the classics are right there, fangames are a thing. Do we really need Mania in that context?

With that said I don't blame you, Sega doesn't really seem interested in taking big risks or making sufficient improvements without retconing everything that's been worked up to that point in the next game...

 

It's all whatever though, the fact Forces was able to get me a little exited back when it was first revealed (minus Classic sonic of course) says something on Sega's understanding that they have to do...something...with they're franchise besides nostalgia whoring it!

Basically I think most of us can agree that Forces looks better than Lost World at any rate...we just want better lol.

[JosepHenry]

So, how much of Eggman's presence do you guys want?

I hope you can only encounter him in the final boss and nothing else. Kinda like that RPG final boss that you only encounter at the end of the game after he conquers the world. (Kefka from FFVI)

[Badnik Mechanic]

1 minute ago, Joseph Mello said:

I hope you can only encounter him in the final boss and nothing else. Kinda like that RPG final boss that you only encounter at the end of the game after he conquers the world. (Kefka from FFVI)

Villains like that in a game like this tend to be really crap.

Given what kind of character Eggman is and the nature of this game, Eggman needs to be a constant presence in the game, constantly mocking you and constantly ruining your day until you finally beat him at the end.

Take a look at a Borderlands 2, Handsome Jack is a great villain in that... however you don't actually meet him until right at the end of the game... so why is he so good? Because he's constantly calling you, telling you that you suck, insulting you in every way, and laughing every time he scores a minor victory.

That's how Eggman should be, even if you beat him at the end of the first act boss fight, I want Eggman to quickly run back into frame, kick Sonic so he loses his rings, and laugh like a maniac as he runs off. 

[NegaMix]

Do you think it's likely we'll see something similar to Eggman's taunting in SA2's Crazy Gadget, or the Eggman PSAs in Colours? I think it could be pretty cool to hear Eggman interrupting transmissions from Sonic's friends just to gloat and taunt Sonic, perhaps sounding more frustrated the further you get into the game.

[HywelAtTheMoon]

Maybe some propaganda. The Sonic version of 1984.

[JosepHenry]

10 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

Villains like that in a game like this tend to be really crap.

Given what kind of character Eggman is and the nature of this game, Eggman needs to be a constant presence in the game, constantly mocking you and constantly ruining your day until you finally beat him at the end.

Take a look at a Borderlands 2, Handsome Jack is a great villain in that... however you don't actually meet him until right at the end of the game... so why is he so good? Because he's constantly calling you, telling you that you suck, insulting you in every way, and laughing every time he scores a minor victory.

That's how Eggman should be, even if you beat him at the end of the first act boss fight, I want Eggman to quickly run back into frame, kick Sonic so he loses his rings, and laugh like a maniac as he runs off. 

And I agree with you!

I WANT him to act just like Handsome Jack. But he doesn't need to face Sonic by himself until the end, if you know what I mean. He can talk with Sonic throughout the game.

[Bowbowis]

36 minutes ago, Joseph Mello said:

So, how much of Eggman's presence do you guys want?

I hope you can only encounter him in the final boss and nothing else. Kinda like that RPG final boss that you only encounter at the end of the game after he conquers the world. (Kefka from FFVI)

Meh, he's been doing that way too much as of late. Villains who don't show up until the end generally only work if they're so unspeakably powerful that they would completely break the story if they appeared earlier (e.g. Ganondorf), a shadowy manipulator pulling the strings from behind the scenes while other villains provide a more direct threat throughout the story (e.g. Emperor Palpatine), or both.

Eggman isn't quite that powerful and, while he's perfectly capable of being manipulative, he loves attention too much to stick to the shadows. Really his habit of sitting around in his chair rather than actively doing anything to stop Sonic is a major reason why he seems so pathetic in games like Colors. If you ask me, Eggman works best when he's constantly out on the front lines, acting as a constant threat to Sonic and friends. Preferably he'd also be out kicking ass and taking names on the side: 

But it isn't mandatory.

[StaticMania]

Well, knowing that Eggman is doing something is more than enough. Like, even if he doesn't constantly show up as a boss, at least showing that he's trying to further his goals would be pretty neat.

 

Games like Unleashed and Colors don't even do that, he only gets halfway there and we don't see him do anything the rest of the game. That's just weak.

[Celestia]

At minimum I think they should have him pilot boss mechs again. Not just the final boss, but all (or at least most) of 'em. Ideally he'd also be doing things plot wise too, but I could live without that as long as he shows up to actively get in your way as opposed to sending others to do the job.

Funnily enough, if they were still doing that sort of thing, I'd say the premise behind this game would actually make me want the opposite--have him so confident in his victory that most of what he does is in cutscenes until the end. But since that's the standard now, uhh...

[JosepHenry]

Is that it seems the bosses are going to be the Egg Sentinels, instead of Eggman himself...

He still hasn't show up yet, that why I think he will only pilot the final mech. That's why I can't wait for E3. I need more information...

I would be fine if he pilots every mech.

[Bowbowis]

11 minutes ago, Joseph Mello said:

Is that it seems the bosses are going to be the Egg Sentinels, instead of Eggman himself...

He still hasn't show up yet, that why I think he will only pilot the final mech.

It's a bit early to be jumping to that conclusion, don't you think? We don't know if the Sentinels are even going to show up outside of Crisis Amsterdam, let alone if they're going to be bosses.

[JosepHenry]

5 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

It's a bit early to be jumping to that conclusion, don't you think? We don't know if the Sentinels are even going to show up outside of Crisis Amsterdam, let alone if they're going to be bosses.

Is all just speculation.

I just think this time Eggman will show his menacing side even more. Lost World did a great job with that.

[Zippo]

I'm totally down for an Eggman that's eccentric, yet threatening, if it's convincing, but Mike Pollack isn't Damien Clarke, known for voicing both extremes (Cell from Dragon Ball, Handsome Jack). I dunno if Pollack is up to the task, but i sure hope so, if that's the take of Eggman we happen to get. 

[JosepHenry]

 

Mike can sound threatening just fine.

[blazefan519]

14 minutes ago, Zippo said:

I'm totally down for an Eggman that's eccentric, yet threatening, if it's convincing, but Mike Pollack isn't Damien Clarke, known for voicing both extremes (Cell from Dragon Ball, Handsome Jack). I dunno if Pollack is up to the task, but i sure hope so, if that's the take of Eggman we happen to get. 

I mean, we are talking about the same Mike Pollack right? Pretty sure he's got this.

[D.K.]

Mike Pollock was doing threatening voices before Sonic Adventure was even a thing. We have nothing to worry about.

And don't you fucking dare say it's only menacing because his Coborlwitz voice isn't as wacky as his Eggman voice because Unleashed is proof enough that he can do Eggman while still sounding angry and threatening.

[Zippo]

That's a relief. 

I'm just so used to him being so goofy and comedic in later games that it's hard to think of him as threatening sometimes. 

[Shaddy Zaphod]

I always found Adon to be an over-the-top goofy villain in Berserk anyway, even in the manga.

The outtakes of Mike's performance didn't help:

(by the way, these outtakes are seriously the fucking best thing ever)

[Dejimon11]

5 hours ago, Azoo said:

2 ) Do not resort to alternate gameplay styles, but do use other characters. I'm sure the biggest reason Sega keeps coming to this decision is simply because they need a way to pad out the game, as well as showcase better the content that they slaved over (only for the boost style to speed past it in 3 seconds). But regardless, no one walks into these games wanting to play different styles, and if they do then they're probably confused as to what kind of game they want to play.

Let me add to this one: Don't make it like Heroes or Adventure where you're forced to play as everybody in order to unlock the last story.