Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Kintor]

1 minute ago, Nepenthe said:

You can discuss these things, but that's not what people are actually talking about in the first place, so the appeal to popularity is nothing more than an irrelevant tangent. If I'm critiquing Transformers as a piece of art, the fact that it consistently makes $1 billion per installment has fuck all to do with my personal thoughts.

I've already said it's not an appeal to popularity, it's an aknowledge of the different opinions in the Sonic fanbase. Namely that the existence of classic Sonic is a bad reason to deny the hype surrounding Sonic Forces when classic Sonic remains one of the key reasons for Sonic Generations success.

2 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

Not even gonna add this post to an argument, just asking which one you think looks the closest.

And don't include graphics in the comparison. It's all about the gameplay design. The way the hallways are built and the player travels through them, the challenges in the player's path, etc.

As I've said before graphics are a key part of gameplay design, it's all part of the expereince. I say that Sonic Forces is the direct successor to Sonic Generations, which itself had its origins with Sonic Unleashed. Sonic Colous is also a good game and I don't see any negative from that sort of comparison. Seeing as how the line of Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colours and Sonic Generations was a very good time for the Sonic franchise. Returing to that line of games with Sonic Forces is a good move indeed.

[Nepenthe]

1 minute ago, Kintor said:

I've already said it's not an appeal to popularity, it's an aknowledge of the different opinions in the Sonic fanbase. Namely that the existence of classic Sonic is a bad reason to deny the hype surrounding Sonic Forces when classic Sonic remains one of the key reasons for Sonic Generations success.

Literally no one is denying any perceived hype though. In fact, people have bemoaned the fact that Classic Sonic is back in because people liked him a lot in Generations. So really, who are you talking to???

[The Deleter]

Oh my goodness I knew it

5 years

5 years have passed and you still do the exact same things

 

I just asked you a simple, direct, to the point question, man? Why do you have to ignore it?

People back on the SEGA forum legitimately didn't know whether you were a spam bot or not. I hope you know why...

[KHCast]

It's not an appeal to popularity, yet they're adding CS in because he was a big seller in Generations...right 

[Kintor]

1 minute ago, Nepenthe said:

Literally no one is denying any perceived hype though. In fact, people have bemoaned the fact that Classic Sonic is back in because people liked him a lot in Generations. So really, who are you talking to???

What I'm saying is that the Sonic fanbase sometimes has a problem of using certain negative phrases as a way to shut down discussion. Evne the phrase 'Sonic Adventure' has been used this way in the recent past. I'd be a shame for 'classic Sonic' to become another one of these negative phrases. The whole conversation surrounding Sonc Forces needs to move on from an initial gut-reaction at the sight of classic Sonic.

1 minute ago, The Deleter said:

I just asked you a simple, direct, to the point question, man? Why do you have to ignore it?

I gave you direct answer - Sonic Forces looks like Sonic Generation to me. I also added that I don't have a problem with any influence from Sonic Colours or Sonic Unleashed, as I like those game as well.

[Nepenthe]

No one is turning Classic Sonic into a negative term when Forces exists alongside Mania which has universal positive reception. People just don't want the Generations model for the foreseeable future. This is not the problem you're making it out to be.

[Kintor]

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

No one is turning Classic Sonic into a negative term when Forces exists alongside Mania which has universal positive reception. People just don't want the Generations model for the foreseeable future. This is not the problem you're making it out to be.

Except in this context classic Sonic is being portrayed as a negative. As though the existence of Sonic Mania, which was revealed at the same time as Sonic Forces, somehow negates the successful implentation of classic Sonic in a 3D Sonic game with Sonic Generations. That most Sonic fans and general gamer do actually want the 'Generations model' for the forseeable future, that's why Sonic Forces exists in the first place.

[The Deleter]

2 minutes ago, Kintor said:

I gave you direct answer - Sonic Forces looks like Sonic Generation to me. I also added that I don't have a problem with any influence from Sonic Colours or Sonic Unleashed, as I like those game as well.

With the graphical comparisons. I asked that you ignore the graphical comparisons. Just imagine the background as a white void, and the hallways you're running on platforms in the sky. This is a question about level design, not game feel, and it's directly tied to the reason why some believe there will be more 2D than otherwise.

So...

Which game, when you strip out all of those graphical elements that enhance the game, does the level design itself most resemble?

That's all I ask.

[Kellan]

1 minute ago, Kintor said:

What I'm saying is that the Sonic fanbase sometimes has a problem of using certain negative phrases as a way to shut down discussion. Evne the phrase 'Sonic Adventure' has been used this way in the recent past. I'd be a shame for 'classic Sonic' to become another one of these negative phrases. The whole conversation surrounding Sonc Forces needs to move on from an initial gut-reaction at the sight of classic Sonic.

If you're worried about the discussion becoming too dismissive, then I feel like you're going about this the wrong way. People expressing their opinions does not mean that they are dismissing other people's opinions, it just means that they differ. If someone were to say something like, "Oh yeah? Well, you liked Sonic Adventure, so you're not allowed to talk!" that would be dismissive. But someone simply saying, "I, personally, didn't like Sonic X" or even "I think the majority of people disliked Marine the Racoon" are absolutely not dismissive at all.

You know what is kinda dismissive though? Claiming that Lost World was "universally hated". Not "disliked by many", but "hated by all". That's pretty dismissive.

[Captain Fun]

3 minutes ago, Kintor said:

What I'm saying is that the Sonic fanbase sometimes has a problem of using certain negative phrases as a way to shut down discussion.

It looks to me like you're the one trying to shut down discussion. People say that Classic Sonic was killing their hype for this, and you tell them that it shouldn't while pointing out that "the majority" is getting hyped. Like "oh this shouldn't bother you but if it does, remember your opinion is in the minority. Wish you could join us."

[Nepenthe]

4 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Except in this context classic Sonic is being portrayed as a negative. As though the existence of Sonic Mania, which was revealed at the same time as Sonic Forces, somehow negates the successful implentation of classic Sonic in a 3D Sonic game with Sonic Generations. That most Sonic fans and general gamer do actually want the 'Generations model' for the forseeable future, that's why Sonic Forces exists in the first place.

Classic Sonic is being portrayed as a negative in Forces, because no one likes the way he's implemented in Forces, and once again, the popularity of the idea of Classic Sonic himself or in Generations has nothing to do with this, nor does it have anything to do with how anyone views Classic Sonic as a concept or character.

You're literally inventing problems where there are none, and arguing just to argue.

[Kintor]

2 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

Which game, when you strip out all of those graphical elements that enhance the game, does the level design itself most resemble?

That's all I ask.

You can't strip out the graphics and get the same gameplay experience, mechanics alone don't make a level. As such my answer is the same, Sonic Forces looks like Sonic Generations but Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Colours are also cool games.

[KHCast]

Oh my god, you can't just answer the simple fucking question?

[Kintor]

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Classic Sonic is being portrayed as a negative in Forces, because no one likes the way he's implemented in Forces, and once again, the popularity of the idea or Classic Sonic himself or in Generations has nothing to do with this, nor does it have anything to do with how anyone views Classic Sonic as a concept or character.

You're literally inventing problems where there are none, and arguing just to argue.

The point is that it's strange to try and turn classic Sonic's presence into a negative now when it has already worked so well in the past. The implementation of classic Sonic is no different to Sonic Generations, the classic levels are distinct from the modern levels but both are part of the same game. The existence of another retro 2D Sonic game in the form of Sonic Mania is no reason to discount what is being done with Sonic Forces. Ultimatly, classic Sonic is idea that can belong both in 2D games and 3D games.

[StaticMania]

4 minutes ago, Kintor said:

You can't strip out the graphics and get the same gameplay experience, mechanics alone don't make a level. As such my answer is the same, Sonic Forces looks like Sonic Generations but Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Colours are also cool games.

It doesn't really matter what a level looks like graphically, if the level design itself sucks.

[The Deleter]

Just now, Kintor said:

You can't strip out the graphics and get the same gameplay experience, mechanics alone don't make a level. As such my answer is the same, Sonic Forces looks like Sonic Generations but Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Colours are also cool games.

Game designers are constantly designing their games in voids of nothing. It's a basic fact and method of game design, in the interest of polishing the gameplay as well as possible. Graphics always come afterwards, not alongside gameplay. Mechanics are always what make a level in game design.

Again, take away the graphics, like the designer of the game would do, and consider it on its own... what does it most resemble, in your opinion???

That's all I'm asking. Not that you come up with an answer that I agree with, not that you realize something, just answer the question that I laid out before you, whether it goes against your fundamental worldviews or not. It's just a theoretical question, dude...

[Kintor]

Just now, The Deleter said:

Game designers are constantly designing their games in voids of nothing. It's a basic fact and method of game design, in the interest of polishing the gameplay as well as possible. Graphics always come afterwards, not alongside gameplay. Mechanics are always what make a level in game design.

Again, take away the graphics, like the designer of the game would do, and consider it on its own... what does it most resemble, in your opinion???

That's all I'm asking. Not that you come up with an answer that I agree with, not that you realize something, just answer the question that I laid out before you, whether it goes against your fundamental worldviews or not. It's just a theoretical question, dude...

I think that your methodology is flawed, games can are designed with the graphics in mind because a video game is more than mere mechanics, it’s an exercise in create a virtual environment for the player to inhabit. Regardless, my answer is still the game: the closest match to Sonic Forces is Sonic Generations. Not that either of your other pre-selected answers are a bad choice either. Both Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Colours are great Sonic games; they should also inform the design of Sonic Forces alongside Sonic Generations.

[Nepenthe]

8 minutes ago, Kintor said:

The point is that it's strange to try and turn classic Sonic's presence into a negative now when it has already worked so well in the past. The implementation of classic Sonic is no different to Sonic Generations, the classic levels are distinct from the modern levels but both are part of the same game.

Whether or not something worked in the past doesn't matter.

Opinions change (people want a more physically accurate Classic Sonic and are less tolerable of Forces' Classic Sonic by default; Gens also isn't new anymore so it's easier to critique). Contexts change (Gens was a meta celebration of the franchise's past, Forces is an entirely new adventure). Standards change (we just had Nintendo drop a Zelda game that shook its franchise and open world gaming to the core, and within Sonic we're getting a game that's a better representation of classic ideals than Classic Sonic is, meaning Forces' Classic is automatically not as appealing).

Time goes on. Shit changes. People change. Acting as if everyone is obligated to like Forces because they may have liked Generations from six years ago is preposterous.

Quote

The existence of another retro 2D Sonic game in the form of Sonic Mania is no reason to discount what is being done with Sonic Forces. Ultimatly, classic Sonic is idea that can belong both in 2D games and 3D games.

Who said otherwise? Who are you even talking to at this point?

You're still arguing just to argue. It's okay to admit at this point that you're just upset that people don't like Forces as much as you do.

[Zaysho]

6 minutes ago, Kintor said:

The point is that it's strange to try and turn classic Sonic's presence into a negative now when it has already worked so well in the past. The implementation of classic Sonic is no different to Sonic Generations, the classic levels are distinct from the modern levels but both are part of the same game. The existence of another retro 2D Sonic game in the form of Sonic Mania is no reason to discount what is being done with Sonic Forces. Ultimatly, classic Sonic is idea that can belong both in 2D games and 3D games.

The intent in Classic Sonic's inclusion in Generations is very different from Forces. Generations he was one part of all the nostalgia that game represented. Here he's there because he worked before... I guess??? Classic Sonic is becoming the new Wisps (which are also something else no one asked to bring back but Sonic Team keeps shoving them out because, hey, they worked once). Even worse because it feels almost like Classic, along with this still unknown third character/style, is there at the expense of characters people have wanted to see active and playable again for a long time.

This just makes Sonic Team look lazy.

[Kintor]

1 minute ago, Zaysho said:

The intent in Classic Sonic's inclusion in Generations is very different from Forces. Generations he was one part of all the nostalgia that game represented. Here he's there because he worked before... I guess??? Classic Sonic is becoming the new Wisps (which are also something else no one asked to bring back but Sonic Team keeps shoving them out because, hey, they worked once). Even worse because it feels almost like Classic, along with this still unknown third character/style, is there at the expense of characters people have wanted to see active and playable again for a long time.

This just makes Sonic Team look lazy.

I don't think that the intent of classic Sonic is any different now with Sonic Forces then it was with Sonic Generations. Nostalgia is always going to play a part, even where new 3D Sonic games are concerned but that doesn't mean that classic Sonic should be limited just to anniversary events. Never mind that Sonic Forces is also technically an anniversary game like Sonic Generations, even if the timing is now a little late. I argue that classic Sonic should be acknowledged as another potential mechanic for inclusion with 3D Sonic games, it's actually one of the most successful mechanics we've seen in years. Perhaps we will see more playable characters included in the future but for now Sonic Forces with classic Sonic is once again that necessary first step, the foundation that Sonic Team can build-upon with other innovate ideas.

[PickleBrows]

32 minutes ago, Kintor said:

I don't think that the intent of classic Sonic is any different now with Sonic Forces then it was with Sonic Generations. Nostalgia is always going to play a part, even where new 3D Sonic games are concerned but that doesn't mean that classic Sonic should be limited just to anniversary events. Never mind that Sonic Forces is also technically an anniversary game like Sonic Generations, even if the timing is now a little late. I argue that classic Sonic should be acknowledged as another potential mechanic for inclusion with 3D Sonic games, it's actually one of the most successful mechanics we've seen in years. Perhaps we will see more playable characters included in the future but for now Sonic Forces with classic Sonic is once again that necessary first step, the foundation that Sonic Team can build-upon with other innovate ideas.

I'll take those highlighted points in order.

The problem is, the intent SHOULD be different this time around. The big surprise and novelty of Classic Sonic being back in Generations is no longer there. They've already done it so now, if they absolutely must bring him back, people have to ask "okay, so what's new with him".  His physics don't seem to be improved at all, even potentially made worse with some concerns about how he carries momentum. They showed us one level for him so far and it's a remade Green Hill Zone, which we already got in Generations, even if they've added the sandy aesthetic. Pick any random game sequel; Portal 2, Mario Galaxy 2, Ratchet and Clank, hell even Just Dance 2017. If you are bringing back an existing concept, there has to be a reason, there has to be some desire to develop that idea further.

Let's go with your thinking that they've got the same intent with Classic in Forces as Generations; that'd be nostalgia appeal. Here's the problem, Classic in Forces isn't reminding people of the old-school Sonic games, it's reminding people of the near-identical experience they've already had 6 years ago.

Let's not forget, Classic Sonic is literally getting his own entire game this year where his gameplay can, and is, thriving. What is there to Classic Sonic in Forces that isn't already being accomplished better in Sonic Mania? Classic Sonic's actually getting the better deal this year while Modern Sonic has to share the spotlight again when this should have been the year that firmly separates the two and really show off what they're all about.

And just about the other playable characters, they've been using the "we want to focus on Sonic" excuse since Secret Rings. The worst thing is I think plenty of us still genuinely believe them when they say it these days. The problem is they should've figured it out by now. In fact, they have! It's becoming clear that the Boost gameplay is where they're happiest with Modern Sonic, and he's already had 3 games to allow that style to develop. If Classic Sonic is "that necessary first step" then they already took it 6 years ago, we want to see progression.

[Kintor]

13 minutes ago, Joy said:

The problem is, the intent SHOULD be different this time around. The big surprise and novelty of Classic Sonic being back in Generations is no longer there. They've already done it so now, if they absolutely must bring him back, people have to ask "okay, so what's new with him".  His physics don't seem to be improved at all, even potentially made worse with some concerns about how he carries momentum. They showed us one level for him so far and it's a remade Green Hill Zone, which we already got in Generations, even if they've added the sandy aesthetic. Pick any random game sequel; Portal 2, Mario Galaxy 2, Ratchet and Clank, hell even Just Dance 2017. If you are bringing back an existing concept, there has to be a reason, there has to be some desire to develop that idea further.

Let's go with your thinking that they've got the same intent with Classic in Forces as Generations; that'd be nostalgia appeal. Here's the problem, Classic in Forces isn't reminding people of the old-school Sonic games, it's reminding people of the near-identical experience they've already had 6 years ago.

Let's not forget, Classic Sonic is literally getting his own entire game this year where his gameplay can, and is, thriving. What is there to Classic Sonic in Forces that isn't already being accomplished better in Sonic Mania? Classic Sonic's actually getting the better deal this year while Modern Sonic has to share the spotlight again when this should have been the year that firmly separates the two and really show off what they're all about.

And just about the other playable characters, they've been using the "we want to focus on Sonic" excuse since Secret Rings. The worst thing is I think plenty of us still genuinely believe them when they say it these days. The problem is they should've figured it out by now. In fact, they have! It's becoming clear that the Boost gameplay is where they're happiest with Modern Sonic, and he's already had 3 games to allow that style to develop. If Classic Sonic is "that necessary first step" then they already took it 6 years ago, we want to see progression.

I've said before elsewhere in this thread but I think it's worth reiterating now. The first time that classic Sonic appeared, which was Sonic Generations, required extraordinary justification for his presence. As something that was only possible as part of the 20th anniversary event. However, the fact that classic Sonic has already proven himself with Sonic Generations means that such extraordinary justification is no longer required. Granted, Sonic Forces is still technically an anniversary game but the significance of the 25th anniversary is no longer such an important deciding factor as to whether or not classic Sonic can justifiable appear. In a real sense classic Sonic has become mundane, as a matter of practicality he's another acceptable gameplay mechanic in the modern games and can easily be used for future Sonic games without needing to come up with some special excuse.

As for Sonic Mania, it should matter or not whether that game exists alongside Sonic Forces, at least where classic Sonic is concerned. Sonic Mania is doing its own thing and has no direct impact on the classic gameplay of Sonic Forces. The success of both Sonic Forces and Sonic Mania will benefit the Sonic franchise as a whole. Having classic Sonic in Sonic Mania doesn't diminish Sonic Forces; Sonic Generations did the whole classic Sonic thing first and means classic Sonic pretty much expected for any spiritual successor to Sonic Generations. While having classic Sonic in Sonic Forces doesn't diminish Sonic Mania, because Sonic Mania isn't in competition with 3D Sonic games unless it suddenly branches out into extreme Mega CD style parallax scaling. Basically, this while conflict around the mere existence of classic Sonic in Sonic Forces is entirely unnecessary.

[Plinius]

I know some people don't like Classic Sonic's inclusion in Forces but I love it! He was so adorable and cute in Generations he practically stole the game's spotlight. I've seen loads of people on other forums and comment sections who are also delighted to see Classic Sonic return .

I can tell this forum is massively against Forces being Generations 2 (either against its formula being used out of it's intended one time use or simply never liking the game/not liking it in hindsight), but please remember some of us fans (probably a great lot I would say) really have wanted a Generations 2. It's just what Iizuka said; it's not a sequel to Generations as it has a fresh new plot with wholly original, rather than revisted, levels (although I can see the irony with Green Hill returning). Instead, it's a spiritual successor, the extension of the Generations formula that fans like myself have always wanted .

I think we'll be seeing lots more of Classic Sonic in Modern Sonic games and I say this sounds brilliant! Classic Sonic steals everything he is in

[Salamander]

This thread is fast becoming an allegory for the fans' relationship with Sonic Team.  Our opinions, considered criticisms, careful dissections of graphics and level design - all brushed away while Sonic Team comes back with the same thing again and again, demanding that we be excited by a worse version of the last thing we played, such that we fast become sick of the sight of them and lose even the interest we could have had.  It's the perfect metaphor for why Sonic Forces is already failing.

[StaticMania]

Apparently criticising Sonic Forces is the product of the devil's minions. It used to be okay to dislike something, when all that was said...was "I dislike this and here's why".

 

Sonic the Hedgehog is too positive.