Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Shaddy Zaphod]

3 minutes ago, Razorsaw said:

Adventure itself is a game I adore, but it has its share of half baked and unrefined gameplay elements that were difficult to build off over a decade ago, let alone picking it up again ages later.

I think nep is really just talking about the controls and level structure. Which I can sympathize with, seeing as they are the best controls in the franchise.

 

_{^{Not that that excuses singling out a relatively inconsequential addition to Forces as "the thing that kills the game on principle" or whatever, but still.}}

[Tyranno]

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

The thing is, no one is asking for Sega to please 100% of the potential customer base.

Then you have a very different view of the fandom than I.

Everyone in this fandom has their own idea about what would be the best way to "please" Sonic fans, or at least, please themselves. I just don't think there's any way for Sonic Team to look at all these disparate things and form a consensus. What they need to do is live and die by their own successes and mistakes and go from there.

[Nepenthe]

3 minutes ago, Razorsaw said:

What's simple is how you boiled them down and your own admittance that it would be easy to please you with it, not that their implementation would themselves be easy and simple, and I have my doubts that it'd please the majority of people.

Whether or not their implementation is easy and simple is not actually my job to figure out. 

We also don't know what would please the majority of the people in regards to 3D Sonic, specifically. What we do know is, Sonic Forces is not that thing for a myriad of reasons. Regardless, I outlined these things because I was asked about my personal tastes anyway.

[Tyranno]

Just now, Shaddy the guy said:

I think nep is really just talking about the controls and level structure. Which I can sympathize with, seeing as they are the best controls in the franchise.

... See, I don't know if I agree with that either, because I've had numerous issues with SA's controls.

[Kellan]

This game is really weird for me, because it seems like every time they announce something that gets me hyped, they immediately announce something else that I don't want. The first trailer had the darker tone, but then immediately announced Classic Sonic. The first gameplay had the boost (which I like well enough), but then immediately brought back the Wisps. This trailer finally announced a playable character that isn't Sonic, and then I immediately found out that Graff is back!

In a way, I guess this may be the one of the most interesting games I've ever followed pre-release, because I still don't know if I'm hyped or not.

I guess I am. Somehow. (Seriously, why on Earth would they bring Graff back? Does he have a really long contract or something?)

[Shaddy Zaphod]

1 minute ago, Razorsaw said:

... See, I don't know if I agree with that either, because I've had numerous issues with SA's controls.

...such as? I can't think of any major problem with playing levels that doesn't involve the collision or camera, two things that are not the controls.

[Tyranno]

Just now, Shaddy the guy said:

...such as? I can't think of any major problem with playing levels that doesn't involve the collision or camera, two things that are not the controls.

That actually sounds more accurate to what I struggled with; while they're not the controls they do have an impact on your ability to control the character through the level, no?

[Nepenthe]

5 minutes ago, Razorsaw said:

Everyone in this fandom has their own idea about what would be the best way to "please" Sonic fans, or at least, please themselves. I just don't think there's any way for Sonic Team to look at all these disparate things and form a consensus. 

The only reason people believe this is because they've gotten it in their head that Sonic fans are not human beings with varying tastes, tolerances, and thresholds for what they will and won't play, and that instead every possible opinion that can be held on the games is something that cannot be conceded or compromised on simply because it's an opinion, that if you're a Classic fan, all you want from the franchise is Mania and literally nothing else, or that if you're an Adventure fan, all you want is SA1/SA2 and literally nothing else, or that if you're a modern fan, all you want is Generations and literally nothing else.

This is not how people work.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Kellan said:

This game is really weird for me, because it seems like every time they announce something that gets me hyped, they immediately announce something else that I don't want. The first trailer had the darker tone, but then immediately announced Classic Sonic. The first gameplay had the boost (which I like well enough), but then immediately brought back the Wisps. This trailer finally announced a playable character that isn't Sonic, and then I immediately found out that Graff is back!

In a way, I guess this may be the one of the most interesting games I've ever followed pre-release, because I still don't know if I'm hyped or not.

I guess I am. Somehow. (Seriously, why on Earth would they bring Graff back? Does he have a really long contract or something?)

No, he just has a friend/contact at SEGA from what I recall, and this friend must really be putting out to keep him in.

Which reminds me of this video in particular.

Hey, it DOES happen in big business. lol

[Shaddy Zaphod]

1 minute ago, Razorsaw said:

That actually sounds more accurate to what I struggled with; while they're not the controls they do have an impact on your ability to control the character through the level, no?

But in an update to the way the playstyle, they'd be fixed. The core movement and physics of SA1 and 2 were designed to work the way they did, the camera and collision were not. Nepenthe doesn't want SA1's camera and collision, he/she/whatever/toolazytocheck wants the design sensibility used in those games' creation.

[CleverSonicUsername]

13 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

The thing is, no one is asking for Sega to please 100% of the potential customer base.

Pretty much this. I don't think there's any expectation for SEGA and Sonic Team to please everybody. But the thing is, they have had successes, and it's not too hard to tell what people want, broadly speaking. Sonic Team has had a history of following successes with missteps, and at a certain point it just seems like they're a bit tone deaf, with brief moments of lucidity here and there.

[Tyranno]

1 minute ago, Nepenthe said:

The only reason people believe this is because they've gotten it in their head that Sonic fans are not human beings with varying tastes, tolerances, and thresholds for what they will and won't play, and that instead every possible opinion that can be held on the games is something that cannot be conceded or compromised on simply because it's an opinion, that if you're a Classic fan, all you want from the franchise is Mania and literally nothing else, or that if you're an Adventure fan, all you want is SA1/SA2, and nothing else, or that if you're a modern fan, all you want is Generations, and nothing else.

This is not how people work.

But nevertheless, that's how the conversation is constantly being framed. Every Sonic game is supposed to "save" the franchise or be part of something that they think Sonic should be. I know comparisons to Mario are overdone, but the difference in reactions are clear: Mario Kart is a spinoff, New Super Mario Bros. is a different pillar from the 3D titles, and different 3D titles can go in different directions than their predecessors (Mario Odyssey returns to the Sunshine style while Mario Galaxy and 3D world are "course based").

How does the Sonic fandom handle similar matters? Sonic Mania and Forces are different titles competing for Sonic's future, Lost World playing differently from Generations is them "abandoning" the previous style, and the first reactions to All-Stars Racing were debates about "why is Sonic in a car"?

It may not be how people work, but it IS how fandom keeps contextualizing itself, and a reason why Sonic Team should focus on figuring things out for themselves, even if it doesn't work for them.

[Nepenthe]

1 minute ago, Shaddy the guy said:

But in an update to the way the playstyle, they'd be fixed. The core movement and physics of SA1 and 2 were designed to work the way they did, the camera and collision were not. Nepenthe doesn't want SA1's camera and collision, he/she/whatever/toolazytocheck wants the design sensibility used in those games' creation.

She.

And yes. I'm not asking for SA1 style stuff to come back with all of the problems that resulted from the technology and rushed development, just like no one asks for any game to come with game-breaking bugs. The polishing is inherent in the job description of making a game in the first place.

[Tyranno]

4 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

But in an update to the way the playstyle, they'd be fixed. The core movement and physics of SA1 and 2 were designed to work the way they did, the camera and collision were not. Nepenthe doesn't want SA1's camera and collision, he/she/whatever/toolazytocheck wants the design sensibility used in those games' creation.

Okay, that makes sense.

I still think it's more complex a matter than to go "well, make Sonic Adventure, only better", though. Including but not limited to, "is this something people would want in 2017 because a lot of people talk like the game hasn't aged well."

[Shaddy Zaphod]

1 minute ago, Razorsaw said:

Okay, that makes sense.

I still think it's more complex a matter than to go "well, make Sonic Adventure, only better", though.

Well not really, because "Sonic Adventure but better" is a game that takes the best of Sonic Adventure and expands upon it, while leaving everything that didn't work behind.

Anyway, aside from all this negativity that I don't even really agree with, I'm wondering about the cosmetic options that will be available in the game. You think you'll be stuck with what you make in the beginning for the whole game? If not, then are all those items there from the very start? I can't decide whether I'd want to unlock them or not, since I like having options, but I also like being able to see the appearance of any character I create evolve with time.

[Tyranno]

I submitted the post too soon. I edited it further.

[CleverSonicUsername]

Just now, Shaddy the guy said:

Well not really, because "Sonic Adventure but better" is a game that takes the best of Sonic Adventure and expands upon it, while leaving everything that didn't work behind.

Alright, alright, I feel ya. You're saying we need a Big the Cat-centric fishing game. I'm picking up what you're putting down.

[Nepenthe]

Just now, Razorsaw said:

But nevertheless, that's how the conversation is constantly being framed. Every Sonic game is supposed to "save" the franchise or be part of something that they think Sonic should be. I know comparisons to Mario are overdone, but the difference in reactions are clear: Mario Kart is a spinoff, New Super Mario Bros. is a different pillar from the 3D titles, and different 3D titles can go in different directions than their predecessors (Mario Odyssey returns to the Sunshine style while Mario Galaxy and 3D world are "course based").

How does the Sonic fandom handle similar matters? Sonic Mania and Forces are different titles competing for Sonic's future, Lost World playing differently from Generations is them "abandoning" the previous style, and the first reactions to All-Stars Racing were debates about "why is Sonic in a car"?

It may not be how people work, but it IS how fandom keeps contextualizing itself, and a reason why Sonic Team should focus on figuring things out for themselves, even if it doesn't work for them.

I'm not interested in entertaining the binary ways in which these wishlist conversations are framed insofar as it relates to communicating any kind of plan of action at all.

If you're going to assume that just because I ask for something that I'm completely intolerant of other things that may or may not contradict it, then that's a personal assumption you've made that has nothing to do with what I'm actually saying. If nothing else, this mode of thinking is part of the reason people think Sonic fans as a whole are intolerant and indecisive.

[Chris Knopps]

 

2 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Well not really, because "Sonic Adventure but better" is a game that takes the best of Sonic Adventure and expands upon it, while leaving everything that didn't work behind.

So just the whole Big, Amy and Knuckles game plays then? All things considered Sonic, Tails and Gamma were pretty good and fairly well received as a whole, especially the plot of Gamma in particular, which as far as the game play, Forces seems to be imitating in its own way via the new Wispon thing.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

9 minutes ago, Razorsaw said:

"is this something people would want in 2017 because a lot of people talk like the game hasn't aged well."

doesn't matter. you're not making the game that's already aged, you're making a different game inspired by what worked in that one.

I mean, look at Doom 2016. Basically everything that was fun about Doom in the 90s is there (okay not the usain bolt movement speed) but it does away with all the maze-key bullshit, and focuses on good action, and good exploration (also, it lets you look up and down).

Sonic needs a Doom 2016.

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

So just the whole Big, Amy and Knuckles game plays then? All things considered Sonic, Tails and Gamma were pretty good and fairly well received as a whole

Uh, you've got Gamma and Knuckles' names mixed up. Back in SA1 everyone was fine with Knux's gameplay, it was SA2 that fucked it up, and it fucked Gamma's gameplay even harder, since most people were pretty indifferent to Gamma.

But also no, because Nep is asking for a game with Sonic, Tails and Knuckles' SA1 controls in Sonic's objectives and level design only.

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

especially the plot of Gamma in particular, which as far as the game play, Forces seems to be imitating in its own way via the new Wispon thing.

Kinda, but actually not in any way whatsoever? Wispon and it's weirdness aren't really like Gamma except that they kinda shoot stuff, and that's a concept generic enough to have nothing to do with SA1.

[Nepenthe]

Just now, Shaddy the guy said:

doesn't matter. you're not making the game that's already aged, you're making a different game inspired by what worked in that one.

I mean, look at Doom 2016. Basically everything that was fun about Doom in the 90s is there (okay not the usain bolt movement speed) but it does away with all the maze-key bullshit, and focuses on good action, and good exploration (also, it lets you look up and down).

Sonic needs a Doom 2016.

Or a Breath of the Wild.

But I'm not holding my breath for something of that caliber.

[Tyranno]

4 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

doesn't matter. you're not making the game that's already aged, you're making a different game inspired by what worked in that one.

I mean, look at Doom 2016. Basically everything that was fun about Doom in the 90s is there (okay not the usain bolt movement speed) but it does away with all the maze-key bullshit, and focuses on good action, and good exploration (also, it lets you look up and down).

Sonic needs a Doom 2016.

Would that not mean you still have to grow it? Doom (and Breath of the Wild) grew the game by following the spirit of the original game, not the letter, so for a Sonic Adventure game to do the same you'd have to still basically rebuild it from the ground up.

I guess my point has moved from where it was originally, but that still sounds like the exact opposite of simple to me, and it'd still require more than just taking the concepts from Adventure that already exist and transplanting them into a context that "works" - an already nebulous concept.

[Tenko]

I'm still surprised there aren't more templates considering this custom character is meant to be so important and the main "feature". Where's the fox, echidna, armadillo, lizard, monkey, heck what would an anthro insect look like on Sonic's world. Or go whole hog and let us make rebel robot animals like Metal. It's like a main feature that's only half in. 

It's almost like it was going to be a Sonic creator game then they decided to just build a standard Sonic game around it.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

3 minutes ago, Razorsaw said:

Would that not mean you still have to grow it? Doom grew the game by following the spirit of the original game, not the letter, so for a Sonic Adventure game to do the same you'd have to still basically rebuild it from the ground up.

I guess my point has moved from where it was originally, but that still sounds like the exact opposite of simple to me, and it'd still require more than just taking the concepts from Adventure that already exist and transplanting them into a context that "works" - an already nebulous concept.

Well you're not literally using the same engine, we're saying that the way Sonic moves can and has been recreated -- it just needs to be used to it's fullest extent, placed in good levels, and coupled with versions of other characters like Tails and Knuckles that work -- by designing it accordingly. That is the spirit of Sonic Adventure, the playstyle and the things about it that worked. Being able to spindash off of things and make your own shortcuts. Being able to fly past obstacles, being...Knuckles, it's everything to do with characters that move fast, platform, control well, and exist in an ever-varied amount of colorful environments. That's not just the spirit of SA1, it's the spirit of Sonic.

[Nepenthe]

Just now, Razorsaw said:

I guess my point has moved from where it was originally, but that still sounds like the exact opposite of simple to me, and it'd still require more than just taking the concepts from Adventure that already exist and transplanting them into a context that "works" - an already nebulous concept.

Again, I never said the execution was simple. No game is. Game development is hard, frustrating, and laborious (but again, this isn't really my problem).

I said my parameters for what I personally want are simple. My wishlist is not long nor highly specific. I don't need a game to behave a certain way right down to the numbers governing how much distance Sonic covers. I don't need his jump to be exactly analogous to the one in the classics. I just need those four things included in a modern and competent way.

So how we've gotten to this point in the discussion is beyond me.