Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[RictalRose0]

7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yes, I have heard the constant wailing about it. But I'm not saying we should never have other characters be playable. I'm saying this "compromise" is only going to lead to a worse game on top of driving up hatred for these characters from people who aren't already fans of them and who don't want to bother with slow filler gameplay to get to the parts that actually feel like a Sonic game. And when that builds up enough, you're going to lose those characters again.

The series needs to ditch the boost, figure out a style of gameplay that's fun, solidly designed, can actually support a game on its own, and allows for other characters to participate.

Yeah but it's just that making another engine has to be like, really expensive. Or they could get an already existing engine and work from that but I don't know. I just know that whatever engine they used on Colors was not good enough. They could just stick to the Hedgehog engine anyway, just use it properly. And i'm not talking about Boost either, the Hedgehog engine isn't built around boost and it can do a lot more that that. Lost World was made on that engine. You can make a totally different game on it, not neccesarily Boost.

[Adamis]

7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

 

The series needs to ditch the boost

No thank you.

[Nepenthe]

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'm saying this "compromise" is only going to lead to a worse game on top of driving up hatred for these characters from people who aren't already fans of them and who don't want to bother with slow filler gameplay to get to the parts that actually feel like a Sonic game. And when that builds up enough, you're going to lose those characters again.

No one is asking for Sonic 06 2. Why you insist the worst case scenario is objectively bound to happen I have no idea.

[Dr. Detective]

I'm desperate enough that I'd probably not complain if they stuck with the boost and the others were just skins.

Like, there'd be extremely valid complaints surrounding doing something like that but after years of suffering through worse, I'd feel... not like I currently do with Forces. Which I have to imagine would be a good feeling and not just a "Meh" to "Confused as fuck on what to feel" kind of feeling.

Maybe work their way up to something more ideal.

[Blue Blood]

3 minutes ago, simtek34 said:

Two kids at my school thought it was a great idea and that CAC's would work out fine. Another friend of mine and I thought thi would be a horrible idea, then we imagined what the DevienArt side of the Sonic Fanbase would do with it

I'm curious, if you don't mind saying, how old are you and your friends and when were you introduced to Sonic? I'm leaning towards the idea that is mainly younger fans that are the target demographic here and it will mostly (but not exclusively) appeal to them. I'm talking people who grew up in the 2000s. 

[StaticMania]

1 minute ago, Nepenthe said:

No one is asking for Sonic 06 2. Why you insist the worst case scenario is objectively bound to happen I have no idea.

I thought it was pretty natural to assume the worst case scenario when it comes to Sonic Team, I mean that's all that has been happening to be honest.

[Scar]

3 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

No one is asking for Sonic 06 2. Why you insist the worst case scenario is objectively bound to happen I have no idea.

While I agree with you in principle, there is precedent with these things.

Honestly, for a game with multiple playable characters there needs to be a radical paradigm shift in how Sonic games are designed to support them without the game being Sonic + a collection of minigames. In other words, if Playable the Fancharacter was replaced with members of the existing cast, it would really do nothing to solve the problem.

I dunno. Just needs a big shake-up.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, RictalRose0 said:

Yeah but it's just that making another engine has to be like, really expensive. Or they could get an already existing engine and work from that but I don't know. I just know that whatever engine they used on Colors was not good enough. They could just stick to the Hedgehog engine anyway, just use it properly. 

Making good games is hard. That is not an excuse for a major developer to halfass everything.

Just now, Adamis said:

No thank you.

Well, you're free to watch this series wither and die then.

Just now, Nepenthe said:

No one is asking for Sonic 06 2. Why you insist the worst case scenario is objectively bound to happen I have no idea.

Why do you assume everything is in the absolute worst possible terms? I'm not talking '06 2, I'm talking werehog 2. These characters already got driven out of the series once, if they fuck up their return with sloppy, short-sighted ideas, they're going right back in the trash.

 

[RictalRose0]

I also don't think getting rid of the Boost is a good idea either. What this franchise needs is a clear direction. And the boost is the only thing in the last 9 years now that has had a clear direction. The only way I would think that's a good idea if it's a miracle happen and they replace it with something even more solid and with better direction. Which I doubt, so that's why I back the Boost. 

[simtek34]

2 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

I'm curious, if you don't mind saying, how old are you and your friends and when were you introduced to Sonic? I'm leaning towards the idea that is mainly younger fans that are the target demographic here and it will mostly (but not exclusively) appeal to them. I'm talking people who grew up in the 2000s. 

I'm a Junior High School Student. So kids around 12-15. I have been a Sonic fan since I was three. Two of them were around 6 and the other, I'm not sure.

[Zaysho]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Why do you assume everything is in the absolute worst possible terms? I'm not talking '06 2, I'm talking werehog 2. These characters already got driven out of the series once, if they fuck up their return with sloppy, short-sighted ideas, they're going right back in the trash.

Because it's totally the characters' fault and not bad design and writing choices.

[Diogenes]

Just now, RictalRose0 said:

I also don't think getting rid of the Boost is a good idea either. What this franchise needs is a clear direction. And the boost is the only thing in the last 9 years now that has in the terms of clear direction. The only way I would think that's a good idea if it's a miracle happen and they replace it with something even more solid and with better direction. Which I doubt, so that's why I back the Boost. 

The boost is not a "clear direction" because it can't actually support a game. It always has to be propped up with some kind of filler or gimmick.

[Nepenthe]

Just now, StaticMania said:

I thought it was pretty natural to assume the worst case scenario when it comes to Sonic Team, I mean that's all that has been happening to be honest.

The only people who continually assume the worst case scenario after eight years of good to well-received games are, ironically, the people who still think Sonic 06 is in any way relevant to the way Sega does anything anymore.

Just now, Scar said:

While I agree with you in principle, there is precedent with these things.

A precedent they left behind 11 years ago. Nice that we're arbitrarily chained to the worst thing ever.

Just now, Scar said:

Honestly, for a game with multiple playable characters there needs to be a radical paradigm shift in how Sonic games are designed to support them without the game being Sonic + a collection of minigames.

They're already designed to support them. It's called reskinning.

Just now, Scar said:

In other words, if Playable the Fancharacter was replaced with members of the existing cast, it would really do nothing to solve the problem.

It would solve the problem of having the existing cast playable.

[Diogenes]

Just now, Zaysho said:

Because it's totally the characters' fault and not bad design and writing choices.

They're the same thing. The characters are their writing, they are their gameplay. No one but their dedicated fans are going to excuse them if they suck.

[Blue Blood]

Just now, simtek34 said:

I'm a Junior High School Student. So kids around 12-15. I have been a Sonic fan since I was three. Two of them were around 6 and the other, I'm not sure.

Cheers. 

Yeah... That's kinda what I figured. Makes me wonder how I'd feel about this game if I was still that old. For the record, I'm 24. 

[Adamis]

Also, the "Deviantart OC" meme is just stupid. Some amazing artists* made their debuts on that website, drawing OC of various series like Sonic, Dragon Ball or anything else, OC actually helps people practice their creativity and drawing skills, and the constant negativity surrounding them can lead some promising artists to stop practicing.

But yeah, let's have grown-ups sh*t on kids having fun while drawing some fan characters, that's totally mature and helpful.

*Yes, I know some others are terrible, but you know what ? There are terrible people in every fandom. Get over it.

[Chris Knopps]

9 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

No one is asking for Sonic 06 2. Why you insist the worst case scenario is objectively bound to happen I have no idea.

You should be used to this and indifferent to the sentiment by now.

Anytime you mention anything related to the "Adventure Era" of the franchise in any way, shape or form, 06 is the immediate counter statement.

It's like... The thing. It has to be done. Why? Who knows. Eventually folks will probably ask people bringing up anything "Adventure Era" related the new question...

"Oh, you like that? How did Lost World and BOOM turn out?"

So... F@$ked either way man.

[Nepenthe]

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Why do you assume everything is in the absolute worst possible terms?

The same reason you think that the moment someone else is playable the game will automatically be worse. Weird as fuck that I'm getting called out for exaggerated cynicism considering this has been your mode of thought for years.

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'm not talking '06 2, I'm talking werehog 2.

You are literally the only one talking about a Werehog 2. And I say this as a fucking Werehog fan.

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

These characters already got driven out of the series once, if they fuck up their return with sloppy, short-sighted ideas, they're going right back in the trash.

Let's not pretend this argument is about altruism for people who want these characters back in a basic form, nor let's pretend that any of the ideas presented these past several hours are particularly more short-sighted than what people are already tolerating with the modern games in the first place.

[Zaysho]

Just now, Diogenes said:

They're the same thing. The characters are their writing, they are their gameplay. No one but their dedicated fans are going to excuse them if they suck.

Oh, bullshit.

Why don't you just come out and say you just don't want them there and you don't actually want to listen to what anybody says about improving the characters and incorporating them into a unified gameplay style with Sonic?

[StaticMania]

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

The only people who continually assume the worst case scenario after eight years of good to well-received games are, ironically, the people who still think Sonic 06 is in any way relevant to the way Sega does anything anymore.

Well, the people who keep assuming the worst are only still doing so because of stuff like the Werehog, Classic Sonic in Generations, Lost World(unfortunately), and the Wisps. If they assume the worst, it's probably because they actually really dislike these elements. If they dislike those, they have reason to assume that Sonic Team is gonna screw up implementing other characters.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

Well, the people who keep assuming the worst are only still doing so because of stuff like the Werehog, Classic Sonic in Generations, Lost World(unfortunately), and the Wisps. If they assume the worst, it's probably because they actually really dislike these elements. If they dislike those, they have reason to assume that Sonic Team is gonna screw up implementing other characters.

From what we know Sonic Team really likes the Wisps so that then and there tells you the mindset is a big F bomb to any criticism so long as the product is what they themselves seem to enjoy.

What folks with the money want be d@$ned, basically.

[Dr. Detective]

Is trying to do what Mania is doing with the other characters except in 3D considered an impossibility by the masses? I don't really know. 

It sounds like something that ridiculously specific and tailor made to make me unhappy would actually turn out to be the truth though. 

Like even if a good developer tried their best and made something well, the universe would go "Actually fuck you" and everyone would just... hate it I guess. Or it'd just not work despite being developed fine. And this would happen just because it's an attempt at getting the characters to work in 3D and Zeus or Galactus up above have declared that it just can't be so.

Like a prophecy. 

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

The same reason you think that the moment someone else is playable the game will automatically be worse. Weird as fuck that I'm getting called out for exaggerated cynicism considering this has been your mode of thought for years.

I was responding to a specific proposal that I think would be for the worse. One that would make non-Sonic characters into the slower filler gameplay padding out Sonic's boost gameplay. Not that literally any game with other characters would be trash.

3 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

You are literally the only one talking about a Werehog 2. And I say this as a fucking Werehog fan.

Yes, as I said, that is what I am saying. That is the comparison I am making, to try to explain why I think using the other characters for the slow filler gameplay is a bad move.

Actually, that's wrong, I'm not the only one talking about the werehog. The post I was initially responding to talked about the werehog:

That's why I said they can fill the gaps with other characters instead of say, a gimmick like the Werehog. 

So, perhaps, that is why I have used comparisons to the werehog in arguing about the merits of this idea?

3 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Let's not pretend this argument is about altruism for people who want these characters back in a basic form, nor let's pretend that any of the ideas presented these past several hours are particularly more short-sighted than what people are already tolerating with the modern games in the first place.

Maybe this is hard for you to believe because you've built me up into a character-hating boogeyman, but I do actually want other characters to come back eventually. What I don't want is for them to be implemented in bad ways that further hurts this series and, among other things, further pushes back any chance I have of enjoying other characters.

Also: I also call out the stupid shit Sonic Team is doing! That ideas are only on par with the stupid shit Sonic Team does does not make them good ideas! So I criticize them!

6 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

Oh, bullshit.

Why don't you just come out and say you just don't want them there and you don't actually want to listen to what anybody says about improving the characters and incorporating them into a unified gameplay style with Sonic?

Because I'm not a liar.

[Nepenthe]

1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

Well, the people who keep assuming the worst are only still doing so because of stuff like the Werehog, Classic Sonic in Generations, Lost World(unfortunately), and the Wisps. If they assume the worst, it's probably because they actually really dislike these elements. If they dislike those, they have reason to assume that Sonic Team is gonna screw up implementing other characters.

Anyone who would equate any of these things directly to Sonic 06 in terms of quality and reception- even on the basis of their personal tastes- has absolutely no capability to process the reality of these games' reception to the masses and should not actually be trying to regulate conversation on these matters.

The fact remains that each game after 06 has been infinitely more tolerable to the point that some of them are well-received. Many of their ideas- from boost to Classic Sonic to Wisps- have been popular and beloved. We can debate the finer details and design philosophy all day within the walls of this forum and it doesn't amount to a hill of beans to the masses of people who cherish Generations regardless. It is indeed this endearment that undoubtedly spawned Forces in the first place.

This is the reality of the situation regardless. We can pragmatically work within those parameters (while also pushing for deeper structural changes; imagine that!) or we can insist people can't even get an optional reskin until some diamond unicorn descends from Valhalla and rainbow-farts out the perfect 3D Sonic game.

[Spooky Mulder]

The grappling hook in the Creator mode is giving me awful Sonic Boom vibes. I don't know how to feel about this game. It seems every new detail decreases my interest in the game.

Its really disappointing that this is the first proper game since Lost World.

 

oh well at least Mania is a thing