Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Nepenthe said:

Anyone who would equate any of these things directly to Sonic 06 in terms of quality and reception- even on the basis of their personal tastes- has absolutely no capability to process the reality of these games' reception to the masses and should not actually be trying to regulate conversation on these matters.

The fact remains that each game after 06 has been infinitely more tolerable to the point that some of them are well-received. Many of their ideas- from boost to Classic Sonic to Wisps- have been popular and beloved. We can debate the finer details and design philosophy all day within the walls of this forum and it doesn't amount to a hill of beans to the masses of people who cherish Generations regardless. It is indeed this endearment that undoubtedly spawned Forces in the first place.

This is the reality of the situation regardless. We can pragmatically work within those parameters (while also pushing for deeper structural changes; imagine that!) or we can insist people can't even get an optional reskin until some diamond unicorn descends from Valhalla and rainbow-farts out the perfect 3D Sonic game.

That zinger is a few years too old man...

Though I do agree. lol

[StaticMania]

10 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Anyone who would equate any of these things directly to Sonic 06 in terms of quality and reception- even on the basis of their personal tastes- has absolutely no capability to process the reality of these games' reception to the masses and should not actually be trying to regulate conversation on these matters.

Despite agreeing with the rest of what you said, I don't think anybody is actually doing that specifically. Even if people like to exaggerate...for dramatics.

[Nepenthe]

19 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I was responding to a specific proposal that I think would be for the worse. One that would make non-Sonic characters into the slower filler gameplay padding out Sonic's boost gameplay. Not that literally any game with other characters would be trash.

Yes, as I said, that is what I am saying. That is the comparison I am making, to try to explain why I think using the other characters for the slow filler gameplay is a bad move.

Actually, that's wrong, I'm not the only one talking about the werehog. The post I was initially responding to talked about the werehog:

So, perhaps, that is why I have used comparisons to the werehog in arguing about the merits of this idea?

That quote makes it sounds like they're asking for something else other than the Werehog, though. Otherwise, mea culpa. I misinterpreted you.

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Maybe this is hard for you to believe because you've built me up into a character-hating boogeyman, but I do actually want other characters to come back eventually. What I don't want is for them to be implemented in bad ways that further hurts this series and, among other things, further pushes back any chance I have of enjoying other characters.

You've argued against actual optional reskins before only on the basis that because Sonic's gameplay wasn't too your liking then Sonic Team shouldn't even bother with that meager of a bone for people who've been jonesing for it for almost a decade. This is still an utterly ridiculous proposition for multiple reasons if only because it ignores how game design actually works.

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Also: I also call out the stupid shit Sonic Team is doing! That ideas are only on par with the stupid shit Sonic Team does does not make them good ideas! So I criticize them!

Plenty of people aren't particularly happy with the current state of things and constantly criticize Sonic Team as well. However, the addition of an idea to games that are more or less competent to increase that enjoyment in the meantime is not going to institute grievous harm to the franchise. There is literally no reason to put this feature on the backburner.

[Dr. Detective]

I get increasingly sadder thinking about the fate of the others the more time goes on. It's worse now that the main outlet I had that allowed me to keep seeing them around, the Archie Comics, are fucking dying. 

Boom has a version of Tails that I like enough to consider my current favorite iteration of him but that's it. Re-watching Sonic X all the time kind of lost it's luster a while ago. Same with replaying Heroes over and over. All the action figure stuff is either cancelled or Boom focused. 

It's mostly just my and others fan-art and these discussions about them I have left. Knowing SEGA they'll find a way to take that away from me too though. 

My precious animal buddies that inspired me to learn to draw and write, please be okay. Survive. 

[Zaysho]

15 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Because I'm not a liar.

You'll have to forgive my harshness when I've had to put up with you regularly shooting down even basic suggestions like "better writing." (which really isn't asking for much and I would think that would help endear to other characters)

So, as to actually TRY to reach a compromise, what do you want to see for their implementation, because I almost never see you actually suggesting anything? Obviously not different, filler gameplay, and obviously not something completely different. I would personally suggest using the original Adventure as a baseline, seeing as how all characters DID function under a unified style with their own distinct movesets and individual goals. I would agree that the level design needs to account for multiple characters and their abilities, rather than, say, just give Tails some dash rings and let him zoom through the levels he's supposed to be racing through, which I've seen you mention. I really don't think this is too out there or impossible to achieve. We don't need these totally "right" circumstances here, and we don't need to saddle characters with more than is actually necessary, so why not meet halfway?

[Writer's Blah]

12 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

So, as to actually TRY to reach a compromise, what do you want to see for their implementation, because I almost never see you actually suggesting anything? Obviously not different, filler gameplay, and obviously not something completely different. I would personally suggest using the original Adventure as a baseline, seeing as how all characters DID function under a unified style with their own distinct movesets and individual goals. I would agree that the level design needs to account for multiple characters and their abilities, rather than, say, just give Tails some dash rings and let him zoom through the levels he's supposed to be racing through, which I've seen you mention. I really don't think this is too out there or impossible to achieve. We don't need these totally "right" circumstances here, and we don't need to saddle characters with more than is actually necessary, so why not meet halfway?

This has been discussed a few times before in other threads, and Diogenes himself gave some helpful suggestions when I made a topic several months ago regarding Tails and Knuckles' potential 3D playstyles more in depth. I understand that Dio comes across as a Debby Downer, and I find the tone of his arguments a bit condescending at times, but what he actually says is usually pretty sound, and he does back up most of the statements he makes with things he's said in the past.

I understand where both Nepenthe and Diogenes are coming from, and while I can't personally contribute to their current discussion, I can clarify misconceptions when they occur (or at least try to.)

[Detective Kaito]

1 hour ago, RictalRose0 said:

Yeah but they pretty much cancelled Boom so what spin-offs now? Phone games? Are we ever gonna actually see characters like Shadow, Blaze or Amy ever be back and playable and relevant? Cause so far it just seems like Sonic and Classic are allowed to do that.

By spin-offs, I meant games like Sonic Mania. There will most likely be a Sonic Mania 2, maybe a new Sonic Riders game one day.

[Milo]

4 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

The Classic gameplay is going to please the reviewers by its presence, but has already struck a bum-note with many. Part of me wonders if Mania was pushed for by SoA because they had some serious doubts about Forces. We've heard it before that Forces is for everyone and Mania is for the fans. 

I do not like this game.

Speaking of that demographics quote, that reminds me of something I've been wanting to address as something of a misconception: Sonic games being made for fans of different playstyles, being conflated for Sonic games being made for fans of different age demographics.

This is actually not necessarily new, we saw this seven years ago when Iizuka said the same thing regarding Sonic 4 and Sonic Colors seven years ago (with the former being specifically for older fans and the latter being specifically for younger fans); and people felt alienated about that comment enough that Sega PR had to speak up with clarification that Colors was a game aimed for everyone.

Sega and Iizuka say that Sonic Forces is the "everyman" game and Sonic Mania is the fans ("older" fans in particular), but I think this only applies at face value. Mania being a "for the fans" game and Forces being the "everyman" game only applies through their project scopes and release strategies (since Mania is a digital game + limited marketing + small budget + retraux graphics; while Forces will be on retail + mainstream advertising + large budget + modern graphics), the actual game structure and philosophy I think says otherwise.

I mean, Forces is being split up into three playstyles, that each appeal to a different faction of fans of differing playstyles. You have your Boost Sonic for Boost fans. You have classic Sonic for classic Sonic fans. You have this third CaC playstyle that could honestly be aiming for anything. Fans of 3D Sonic that want something other than the boost? Sonic fans with their own OCs and character creation content in general? Are they even aiming to get people within the fanbase with this? Hard to say. It's arguably another textbook example at Sonic Team trying to make a game trying try and please everyone (or who they perceive as "everyone") at once.

...which I guess may technically be an example of making a game "for everyone", but I think we've seen enough times (both with Sonic games made by Sonic Team themselves, Rise of Lyric, and non-Sonic products in general) that products that try to please "everyone" usually end up pleasing few, if any, people.

Contrast that to Mania. It's a game solely based on the Genesis games, a series of games that back then were targeted for and were well-received by a general audience back in the day--and given how they were so successful and accessible they have been ported to nearly every device capable of playing them under the sun (game consoles, handhelds, PCs, smartphones, pre-smartphone mobile phones, MP3 players...), the games can still be picked up and played by anyone today. Which is a given, considering those games were made when the series was designed to be Sega's rival to a universal icon of gaming. You don't see Nintendo trying to divide the NSMB games as being aimed specifically for older fans or newer fans--they know that that both demographics can enjoy 2D Mario games just fine.

2 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Like, I don't want to put down the general market. But they only have a surface level appreciation of the series. Kids see they can make their own character and parents buy it for them. Older fans see Classic Sonic and just think of their nostalgia when played it when he was younger. Same is true with reviewers.

These are likely the people Sega are aiming for. The game will ok to good reviews, and then people will stop caring about it until Sega bust out a new gimmick.

Surface level appreciation by non-fans / general gamers can only go so far in netting a game additional sales. If the game isn't good to begin with and/or the goodwill / legacy of the series hasn't been done justice for a long time, you can only go so far in getting the attention of the market outside the community.

Shadow might had overcome its critical drubbing to sell over two million copies back in 2005, but I think its a no-brainer a game like that would not fly with general audiences today. The Sonic series is long past the point from coasting to easy sales anymore simply based on its brand, the failure of the Boom subseries outside of the TV show should be an testament to that, and that was an attempt at rebranding the series wholesale to a new demographic. (And on another note, I've also seen some people say Forces has the chance to sell well by the novelty of being the first--retail-- Sonic game on your platform / generation, but again, that doesn't help much if your game isn't that good to begin with. Ask Lost World or Sonic 2006.)

[Diogenes]

8 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

That quote makes it sounds like they're asking for something else other than the Werehog, though. Otherwise, mea culpa. I misinterpreted you.

They went on to suggest things like Knuckles having treasure hunting and brawling, or Amy having slower, more complex platforming. Both of which I would expect to have the same problem as the werehog, in that people would just want to rush through to get to the Go Fast parts.

8 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

You've argued against actual optional reskins before only on the basis that because Sonic's gameplay wasn't too your liking then Sonic Team shouldn't even bother with that meager of a bone for people who've been jonesing for it for almost a decade. This is still an utterly ridiculous proposition for multiple reasons if only because it ignores how game design actually works.

I'm not a fan of reskins because it does a disservice to the characters, who should have something to make playing as them unique.

8 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Plenty of people aren't particularly happy with the current state of things and constantly criticize Sonic Team as well. However, the addition of an idea to games that are more or less competent to increase that enjoyment in the meantime is not going to institute grievous harm to the franchise. There is literally no reason to put this feature on the backburner.

I said exactly why I feel it could be harmful. If you disagree, that's an argument to be had, but I'm not opposing these things blindly or without cause.

9 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

You'll have to forgive my harshness when I've had to put up with you regularly shooting down even basic suggestions like "better writing." (which really isn't asking for much and I would think that would help endear to other characters)

I don't oppose better writing. I oppose shouting "better writing!" as if that's a simple, obvious solution and not what we're trying to identify with all these arguments. I oppose certain things people think are better writing but that I don't think are better writing. I mean shit I go to bat for Pontac and Graff in spite of seemingly universal hate specifically because I think their writing is better than a lot of what's come before and it shouldn't be drowned out by people shouting "Baldy McNosehair!" a thousand times. I may not have the most mainstream of tastes but I'm certainly not saying "better writing? that's a bad thing actually".

9 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

So, as to actually TRY to reach a compromise, what do you want to see for their implementation, because I almost never see you actually suggesting anything?

For now, wait. Get Sonic's shit in order. I don't consider the boost gameplay to be "in order" for a number of reasons, so we need something new for him. Ideally that something would be designed with foresight to better allow other playable characters later on; don't make it overly specific to where other characters' abilities can't fit in naturally (like, again, how the boost so severely dominates Sonic's gameplay). Obviously I'd aim for something focused on slope physics and momentum, rolling, wall running, etc; I think there's enough flexibility in that to incorporate most characters' signature abilities smoothly, given some thought. Once they've got a core gameplay style locked down, start small. One or two other characters alongside Sonic. Maybe Tails, maybe pull a Blaze and make it a new character, whoever they have a good idea or story for. Levels could be character-specific, remixed, or same across the board, though I think remixing the same set of levels to better match particular characters might give the game a longer life than the other options. Multiplayer's fair game to throw in everyone's favorites as skins, I don't really mind skins there. I'd keep the number of playable characters low in general, no trying to account for 9+ different movesets in one game, at least unless the series actually pulls itself out of the shit and becomes wildly popular to the point that they'd have the budget for it (though even then I'd lean towards fewer characters with more/more polished content).

9 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

I would personally suggest using the original Adventure as a baseline, seeing as how all characters DID function under a unified style with their own distinct movesets and individual goals.

Tails aside I don't think SA really uses the characters all that well, and even Tails is too broken to be held up as an example to emulate. Knuckles' treasure hunting makes him too aimless and stop-and-go; climbing and gliding around a nonlinear level playing hot-or-cold with emerald shards takes away from your interaction with the ground and a focus on momentum and fluidity, which I think are more or less the quintessential elements of Sonic gameplay. Amy is too slow in general and her puzzle elements again introduce too much stop-and-go. Gamma is...well, second after Tails, mostly just too clunky, but if they want to do a Sonic character with a gun-based combo system, it'd be better to have you rushing from target to target than standing there trying to tag as many things at once. Big is Big, nothing more needs to be said.

9 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

We don't need these totally "right" circumstances here, and we don't need to saddle characters with more than is actually necessary, so why not meet halfway?

Because ultimately I still see other playable characters as purely optional for the series. A Sonic game with only one playable character but that one character is really good? That's a good game. Not perfect, maybe. But certainly good. A Sonic game with many playable characters but none of them are very good? That's not a good game. That's not a game I'd spend my $60 on. That's not a game that I think is advancing the series in a positive direction. And after how much shit this series has gone through I don't believe in miracle solutions where Sonic Team wakes up one day and understands how to get everything right all at once. So what I'm going to argue for is what I think is the most direct route to what I want most and what I think the series needs most.

[Nepenthe]

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'm not a fan of reskins because it does a disservice to the characters, who should have something to make playing as them unique.

I don't like reskins either. But if every single idea I have for introducing any given character is shot down on the presumption that it will result in a bad outcome, then I'm going to advocate for the path of least harm. As I said earlier, the idea that they should not be back at all until Sonic's gameplay is able to appease you is a complete non-starter. I'm not entertaining it anymore after eight years.

[Celestia]

 

10 minutes ago, Detective Kaito said:

By spin-offs, I meant games like Sonic Mania. There will most likely be a Sonic Mania 2, maybe a new Sonic Riders game one day.

Actually, Kinect personally murdered Sonic Riders in a dark alleyway in 2010 and we'll never see it again.

Spoiler

I hope I'm wrong but, well...Sonic spinoffs as a whole seem to be dead. I'm even skeptical we'll see another ASR, though at least that has a chance.

 

[Diogenes]

I don't like reskins either. But if every single idea I have for introducing any given character is shot down on the presumption that it will result in a bad outcome, then I'm going to advocate for the path of least harm. As I said earlier, the idea that they should not be back at all until Sonic's gameplay is able to appease you is a complete non-starter. I'm not entertaining it anymore after eight years.

Then we're both just too stubborn to come to an agreement on this.

[Nepenthe]

Just now, Diogenes said:

Then we're both just too stubborn to come to an agreement on this.

Fine with me. As I said, I've compromised on basically every other facet of this franchise. I get to have at least one non-negotiable issue.

[Zippo]

Kudos on respectful disagreement. That's how it always should be. 

[Chris Knopps]

5 minutes ago, Celestia said:

 

Actually, Kinect personally murdered Sonic Riders in a dark alleyway in 2010 and we'll never see it again.

  Reveal hidden contents

I hope I'm wrong but, well...Sonic spinoffs as a whole seem to be dead. I'm even skeptical we'll see another ASR, though at least that has a chance.

 

After the Kinect and Wii U flop, does anybody else wonder if SEGA finally learned not to go haphazardly snatching at those shiny toys dangling in front of their faces?

[Diogenes]

No, they've just switched to more abstract ones, like "nostalgia" and "character creator".

[Milo]

Since we're back on the topic of Boost gameplay and where to go with 3D gameplay in general, I'm just going to quickly chime in with my thoughts:

I understand boost gameplay has its fans, and I'm not fighting for it to be discarded. But I will disagree with the notion however that it's the ideal playstyle for 3D Sonic and should be the (sole) foundation going forward. If anything, I actually think Unleashed has the better-designed levels for the Boost gameplay compared to the others, because Colors and Generations' attempts to add platforming into the levels (especially in the 2D portions) break up the flow of constant speed, and the platforming itself is usually rather naff and nothing writing home about.

In my opinion they should drop the pretense of trying to make it the 3D platforming playstyle for main Sonic games, and just spin it off as a racing side series. Fully embrace the flashy setpieces and spectacle and go absolutely ham on how you can obtain boost, like how the first Riders had several ways you could gain air for Extreme Gear (performing tricks off ramps, capsules, character-specific routes, and various transitional level setpieces within courses). A full racing game of point-A to point-B levels would probably still be hard to do, but I presume having the majority of courses being traditional looping racetracks would make the game much more palatable to design. Having Act 1/Act 2 "alternate" versions of racetracks would also allow existing level assets to be re-purposed for further extending the game's content. As for playable characters or having old levels or new levels? They can go nuts on that, honestly. Just spitballing ideas here.

Meanwhile Sega can also go back to crafting and maintaining a 3D Sonic playstyle that wasn't so on-rails and speed-oriented, and start real work on a 3D Sonic with momentum-based gameplay. A polished Adventure 1 (based on Sonic's gameplay) without the twitchy controls and jank/bugginess, or (my preferred option) something much closer to Sonic Utopia, would be my ideal templates for where to start. Heck, I wouldn't even mind Sega revisiting Lost World...on the assumption they literally give it a complete facelift, so it's not so binary and stiff in its controls and not as automated with its homing attack.

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Nepenthe said:

I don't like reskins either. But if every single idea I have for introducing any given character is shot down on the presumption that it will result in a bad outcome, then I'm going to advocate for the path of least harm. As I said earlier, the idea that they should not be back at all until Sonic's gameplay is able to appease you is a complete non-starter. I'm not entertaining it anymore after eight years.

Even if they did reskins for a single game, it wouldn't (or at least it shouldn't) have to mean that's how it will be from then on. It might be a good way to get their feet wet. Start small and work their way up. 

I may also be okay with it because I've always viewed characters as more story-oriented chess-pieces than gameplay ones necessarily. A lot of the gameplay the other characters provide could easily be given to something like an Orange Sonic or a Red Sonic or whatever. Or a werehog. And the kind of gameplay we feel they should have can also easily be opted out of for the sake of something that doesn't make as much sense on a whim. It's hard to pin-point a certain playstyle as belonging to any specific character when SEGA plays so fast and loose with what they do and how they do it no matter how much I want them to be unique. I care more that I get to see their personalities and actions within the narrative shine I suppose. 

And I suppose that's yet another reason why I worry about the new writers coming back again. I can't handle another Generations man. Lost World tried something but it was so confused and broken and so much of it didn't care about explaining things or following up on things they introduced that I can't help but desire for them to go back to those old Adventure stories. The dialogue wasn't that up to snuff but things at least were given a sequence of events I could follow and get excited about. 

[Multikaris]

On 5/17/2017 at 3:01 PM, Dr. Chaotix said:

I get increasingly sadder thinking about the fate of the others the more time goes on. It's worse now that the main outlet I had that allowed me to keep seeing them around, the Archie Comics, are fucking dying. 

Boom has a version of Tails that I like enough to consider my current favorite iteration of him but that's it. Re-watching Sonic X all the time kind of lost it's luster a while ago. Same with replaying Heroes over and over. All the action figure stuff is either cancelled or Boom focused. 

It's mostly just my and others fan-art and these discussions about them I have left. Knowing SEGA they'll find a way to take that away from me too though. 

My precious animal buddies that inspired me to learn to draw and write, please be okay. Survive. 

Boom S2 seems to have said they would use game characters, but they haven't shown they kept their promise yet (and it too seems to be on the way out). Tails and Knuckles have a lifeline in Mania, and I only hope Taxman warms up to the rest.

[StaticMania]

6 minutes ago, Gabe said:

In my opinion they should drop the pretense of trying to make it the 3D platforming playstyle for main Sonic games, and just spin it off as a racing side series. Fully embrace the flashy setpieces and spectacle and go absolutely ham on how you can obtain boost, like how the first Riders had several ways you could gain air for Extreme Gear (performing tricks off ramps, capsules, character-specific routes, and various transitional level setpieces within courses).

The Boost game-play could be the new Sonic R, ya think?

That'd be cool.

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Miru the Living Planet said:

Boom S2 seems to have said they would use game characters, but they haven't shown they kept their promos yet (and it too seems to be on the way out). Tails and Knuckles have a lifeline in Mania, and I only hope Taxman warms up to the rest.

I mean, they said something similar would happen back in Season 1 and it only really did when it came to Metal Sonic and Shadow... who were already apart of the Boom universe so...

Both appearances were pretty random and sloppy too. Metal Sonic showing up and them acting like he was just always a thing was particularly strange. 

I've been enjoying Season 2 a lot but it comes from being able to accept what Boom is and recognizing what are good and bad episodes. I can't pay attention to corporate promotion anymore, literally because of how much they lie. Not just with Sonic but with anything.

 

[blazefan519]

Just now, Dr. Chaotix said:

I mean, they said something similar would happen back in Season 1 and it only really did when it came to Metal Sonic and Shadow... who were already apart of the Boom universe so...

Both appearances were pretty random and sloppy too. Metal Sonic showing up and them acting like he was just always a thing was particularly strange. 

I've been enjoying Season 2 a lot but it comes from being able to accept what Boom is and recognizing what are good and bad episodes. I can't pay attention to corporate promotion anymore, literally because of how much they lie. Not just with Sonic but with anything.

 

They're still coming. Bill mentioned it on the #asksonicboomcrew and said that you shouldn't ask anything about them because they want to keep it a surprise. So, there's no reason why there should be any doubt on the game characters coming.

[Diogenes]

I can't wait for everyone's favorite game character to show up in Boom: Classic Sonic.

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, blazefan519 said:

They're still coming. Bill mentioned it on the #asksonicboomcrew and said that you shouldn't ask anything about them because they want to keep it a surprise. So, there's no reason why there should be any doubt on the game characters coming.

Alright then. I'll wait.

Although I do feel I have reason to doubt. 

Often having doubt when it comes to Sonic leads you down the path of being correct. 

[Chris Knopps]

30 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

No, they've just switched to more abstract ones, like "nostalgia" and "character creator".

Somehow that really hurts in a bizarrely hilarious way.