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Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"


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15 minutes ago, Operationgamer17 said:

Sonic Generations sold 1.85 million across PS3, 360, PC, and 3DS. 1/4 of 1.85 million is 462,500, meaning that's how much it sold on each individual platform. And each of those systems has to have a high install base by then, especially the PS3, 360, and PC.

That's more of a rough estimate, we don't actually know how much each version it sold on each platform, outside of the Steam PC version via SteamSpy (and even that's a tough cookie to figure out, due to how it counts times when the game was discounted or even given away for free during certain sales or events). The 3DS version of the game is also technically a different game from the console versions, so that further muddles the estimate waters.

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1 minute ago, Sonikko said:

This franchise has seen its own sales gradually going down in the past 20 years, I'm not making this up. 

My point was that Sonic 2006 was a very bad game, and it managed to sell 900k in 4 months on a single console, 5 years later Generations (which is regarded as the best 3D game out there, and the 20th anniversary game, so a big title with lots of promotion) sold 1.9m across 4 consoles, which is barely double. The game after that sold 600k copies on the Wii U, yeah it was a dying console and all that, but Mario 3D World, Mario Kart 8,  Smash and many other broke the 5m mark. 

There's simply no excuse for Sonic to be selling so few games except that the brand doesn't have the same power and importance it had 10 years ago.

What is the final total of 06's sales?

Furthermore, why are we comparing any platforming franchise's performance to Mario when Mario is still the only platforming franchise left that regularly breaks 5m in a reasonable amount of time at all? You will be lucky to break a million in this genre regardless.

Even if Sonic was consistently better than what he is now, the fact that he's in the platforming genre at all is in itself a crutch. No one cares about the genre anymore.

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9 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

This franchise has seen its own sales gradually going down in the past 20 years, I'm not making this up. 

My point was that Sonic 2006 was a very bad game, and it managed to sell 900k in 4 months on a single console, 5 years later Generations (which is regarded as the best 3D game out there, and the 20th anniversary game, so a big title with lots of promotion) sold 1.9m across 4 consoles, which is barely double. The game after that sold 600k copies on the Wii U, yeah it was a dying console and all that, but Mario 3D World, Mario Kart 8,  Smash and many other broke the 5m mark. 

There's simply no excuse for Sonic to be selling so few games except that the brand doesn't have the same power and importance it had 10 years ago.

Sega's missteps are finally catching up to them. It's sad because it means that the budget is probably declining too. And I'm not so sure how they can fix the issue at this point. They should have actually focused on quality all this time instead of just expecting the cash-cow to keep giving, because now it's actually drying up. They were short-sighted.

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5 minutes ago, Operationgamer17 said:

Sonic's been in that kind of situation before, though. 

http://www.tssznews.com/2016/11/29/in-depth-sonic-sales-on-nintendo-platforms/

That point MAY be valid for Boom, since it was a spin-off a-la 3D Blast and Riders, but it surely does not apply to Lost World.

The genesis sales are like that because Sonic 2 was given away with the console for free, Sonic 1 was a brand new game, Sonic 3 and Knuckles came out after three games in the serie that had basically the same formula in the span of what, 3 years? On the same console, it makes sense for them to sell reasonably less than the first game. Besides 1.6m for the time was not bad or average at all.

The fact that Lost World sold as much as 3D Blast or Riders is concerning, and the fact that TWO Boom games sold barely half that amount is even worse. 

 

3 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

What is the final total of 06's sales?

Furthermore, why are we comparing any platforming franchise's performance to Mario when Mario is still the only platforming franchise left that regularly breaks 5m in a reasonable amount of time at all? You will be lucky to break a million in this genre regardless.

Even if Sonic was consistently better than what he is now, the fact that he's in the platforming genre at all is in itself a crutch. No one cares about the genre anymore.

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/83085/ratchet-amp-clank-2016/

Ratchet and Clank still sells well, and it's a platform. A pretty generic one if you ask me.

I'm not sure about 2006 total sales, it says around 900k on both consoles on vgchartz.

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3 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

What is the final total of 06's sales?

Furthermore, why are we comparing any platforming franchise's performance to Mario when Mario is still the only platforming franchise left that regularly breaks 5m in a reasonable amount of time at all? You will be lucky to break a million in this genre regardless.

Even if Sonic was consistently better than what he is now, the fact that he's in the platforming genre at all is in itself a crutch. No one cares about the genre anymore.

I have to admit that Gamma from SA or Tails/Eggman from SA2 would be the best game play element to return to the franchise when you consider just how popular that type of thing is nowadays and how folks in general would likely prefer Sonic to grow up a tad again compared to experiences between Colors - now.

Even if it doesn't seem all that fitting to some it was a fairly solid experience and to me performed better than Big and Knuckles/Rouge game play as a more fitting kind of addition to the franchise.

Forces seems to be implementing this in its own way, focusing on your Sonic thing while at the same time reintroducing what Gamma and Tails/Eggman did way back when. So in regards to the concept of shooting/weaponry I do consider it a right step to compliment your typical Sonic centric stuff.

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4 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

That point MAY be valid for Boom, since it was a spin-off a-la 3D Blast and Riders, but it surely does not apply to Lost World.

The genesis sales are like that because Sonic 2 was given away with the console for free, Sonic 1 was a brand new game, Sonic 3 and Knuckles came out after three games in the serie that had basically the same formula in the span of what, 3 years? On the same console, it makes sense for them to sell reasonably less than the first game. Besides 1.6m for the time was not bad or average at all.

The fact that Lost World sold as much as 3D Blast or Riders is concerning, and the fact that TWO Boom games sold barely half that amount is even worse. 

As pointed out in the article, Rush Adventure did just as bad at 378,000.

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4 minutes ago, Operationgamer17 said:

As pointed out in the article, Rush Adventure did just as bad at 378,000.

It's a low budget spin-off, you can't compare that with a main serie game or one that is really pushed like Boom. 

It's just different, the exposure the game is going to get is different. 

Besides Sonic's reputation was not that good in 2007. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

The thing to do is to reinvent the Sonic franchise in 3D on its founding principles a la Breath of the Wild, not to put in another disparate mechanic just because it's popular.

Have we learned nothing from the CaC debate?

SEGA just don't have the interest in doing anything of the sort. They don't want to get Sonic back in track. They want Sonic to make money again by appealing to the masses. If they actually wanted to "fix" or "reinvent" Sonic, Forces would absolutely not be a thing. Nor would Boom have been been allowed to be utter crap, nor would Lost World have copied so much from Mario and nor would the first true-to-form expansion of the original Sonic formula be being outsourced to a group of indie fans after SEGA pissed everyone off with Sonic 4. Twice, might I add.

I've got a lot of contempt for this game. I think that I feel betrayed somehow... SEGA's efforts to actually do right by the franchise and its fans are superficial at best. Mania is a blessing. 

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2 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

SEGA just don't have the interest in doing anything of the sort. They don't want to get Sonic back in track. They want Sonic to make money again by appealing to the masses. If they actually wanted to "fix" or "reinvent" Sonic, Forces would absolutely not be a thing. Nor would Boom have been been allowed to be utter crap, nor would Lost World have copied so much from Mario and nor would the first true-to-form expansion of the original Sonic formula be being outsourced to a group of indie fans after SEGA pissed everyone off with Sonic 4. 

I've got a lot of contempt for this game. I think that I feel betrayed somehow...

Again...

Bayonetta team...

Making the next Sonic game after Forces...

Problem solved I feel.

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But Sonic could probably make more money if there was a reason for the public to be actually be hyped and emotionally moved by the game in question.

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1 minute ago, Nepenthe said:

But Sonic could probably make more money if there was a reason for the public to be actually be hyped and emotionally moved by the game in question.

Yeah but that requires time and effort and someone who gives a shit. 

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Just now, Chris Knopps said:

Again...

Bayonetta team...

Making the next Sonic game after Forces...

Problem solved I feel.

I see this point thrown around often, why would Platinum games develop a Sonic game, ever? They make hack n slash action games, Bayonetta, The Wonderful 101, Nier Automata, how would that fit in a Sonic game?

Do you want a Werehog game? Because even if some people liked it in Unleashed, it would make no sense whatsoever.

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1 minute ago, Blue Blood said:

Yeah but that requires time and effort and someone who gives a shit. 

I imagine the people who gave a shit the most left after Unleashed flopped because there's been a rather cynical undercurrent of pandering ever since. Granted, I wonder what happened to the Sega CEO promising they would do better. I'm hoping their IP resurrection and PC endeavors take off because it'd be nice to funnel a little money and talent back into Sonic Team.

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Just now, Sonikko said:

I see this point thrown around often, why would Platinum games develop a Sonic game, ever? They make hack n slash action games, Bayonetta, The Wonderful 101, Nier Automata, how would that fit in a Sonic game?

Do you want a Werehog game? Because even if some people liked it in Unleashed, it would make no sense whatsoever.

Cinematic spectacle, action oriented, well written plot with depth, high speed thrills, and the combat itself, minus the demon centric stuff, is perfect for Sonic, ala break dancing the hell out of enemies surrounding you and such.

Many concepts in the Bayonetta franchise are exactly what Sonic needs as of late. I'm not talking about playing bloody murder edgehog, I'm talking about all the thrills and chills that franchise can give.

Sonic blasting through a city, catching a ride on top of a jet while going from building to building and such.

It's very easy to picture Sonic in many instances when playing Bayonetta and it makes me drool.

It's a great way to give battling enemies a very Sonic-oriented touch as well by the methods they could use IF you want to take them down in your own way asides homing attacking the hell out of them.

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4 minutes ago, Dannymax440 said:

They're trying really hard to appeal to all masses which will either succeed or crash and burn in their faces. I hope for the former.

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Also Mario sales are getting low compared to the 40 mill mark of the first game with the 3d sandbox games selling even less than 2d ones.

http://nintendo.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Mario_games

 

Mario Tennis Open sold almost as much as Generations, and that's all I'm going to say. And it's the worst Mario Tennis game out there.

 

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Cinematic spectacle, action oriented, well written plot with depth, high speed thrills, and the combat itself, minus the demon centric stuff, is perfect for Sonic, ala break dancing the hell out of enemies surrounding you and such.

Many concepts in the Bayonetta franchise are exactly what Sonic needs as of late. I'm not talking about playing bloody murder edgehog, I'm talking about all the thrills and chills that franchise can give.

Sonic blasting through a city, catching a ride on top of a jet while going from building to building and such.

It's very easy to picture Sonic in many instances when playing Bayonetta and it makes me drool.

It's a great way to give battling enemies a very Sonic-oriented touch as well by the methods they could use IF you want to take them down in your own way asides homing attacking the hell out of them.

Those things happened in Secret Rings, and that game had to be on rail for that to happen. The current games are full of spectacle sections.

Besides combat is out of place in a Sonic game, and I think we've got that proven countless times.

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1 minute ago, Sonikko said:

Mario Tennis Open sold almost as much as Generations, and that's all I'm going to say. And it's the worst Mario Tennis game out there.

 

Those things happened in Secret Rings, and were pretty much automated sections.

Besides combat is out of place in a Sonic game, and I think we've got proven that countless times.

Secret Rings is the farthest from my point with Bayonetta as you can get, and not only that, it's the fault of terrible implementation entirely.

Combat is as necessary as rings in this franchise, unless you just want to run through enemies ala invinca-hog for eternity.

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Just now, Chris Knopps said:

Secret Rings is the farthest from my point with Bayonetta as you can get, and not only that, it's the fault of terrible implementation entirely.

Combat is as necessary as rings in this franchise, unless you just want to run through enemies ala invinca-hog for eternity.

What, isn't jumping on the enemies or homing attacking them not ok anymore? 

You basically want the Werehog with the boost and some more spectacular auotmated sections.

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I would not give Sonic to Platinum. Their track record is strongest only with hack n' slash games.

 

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10 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Cinematic spectacle, action oriented, well written plot with depth, high speed thrills, and the combat itself, minus the demon centric stuff, is perfect for Sonic, ala break dancing the hell out of enemies surrounding you and such.

Many concepts in the Bayonetta franchise are exactly what Sonic needs as of late. I'm not talking about playing bloody murder edgehog, I'm talking about all the thrills and chills that franchise can give.

Sonic blasting through a city, catching a ride on top of a jet while going from building to building and such.

It's very easy to picture Sonic in many instances when playing Bayonetta and it makes me drool.

It's a great way to give battling enemies a very Sonic-oriented touch as well by the methods they could use IF you want to take them down in your own way asides homing attacking the hell out of them.

So this is more about style and having a vehicle to make the characters look cool than it is any consideration for the mechanics that make the franchise fun? Because I don't want Sonic to become a beat em up. We've lost enough platformers.

 

Also, "well written plot with depth" lol.

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This situation in general is just depressing. Even if Sonic Mania were to miraculously surpass Forces in both reception AND sales, who's to say that Sonic Team would see it as a sign to change their current design philosophy? This entire lead-up has just smelled of corporate focus testing, and it's likely that this will continue to be the direction going forward. Personally, I don't know how you can get even more focus-tested than Forces is right now, and that thought scares me. How do you sink thematically lower than where we are now? In my head, I can only rationalize that there is absolutely no way the Sonic franchise can lose its brand identity even more than it currently has; the only direction to go in now is through simplification, a delivery of the most barebones Sonic experience possible, whether that be boost, classic, Adventure, Boom, Lost World, I'm really not sure anymore.

The best case scenario we can hope for is that Mania ends up being a great game, SEGA learns what critics and consumers what from the franchise is a single, clear direction, and they pull a Breath of the Wild on us. Worst case, I don't even know what that is anymore.

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4 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

What, isn't jumping on the enemies or homing attacking them not ok anymore? 

You basically want the Werehog with the boost and some more spectacular auotmated sections.

I fail to see how Bayonetta's stages and/or battles are automated.

I really suggest playing through both titles in detail to really grasp the points I'm trying to make.

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Platinum makes cool and stylish games, but "cool and stylish" is basically the only point where their usual sort of games and Sonic games overlap.

Sonic doesn't need more fancy scripted sequences, even if Platinum is better at them. Sonic needs actual gameplay.

Sonic doesn't need in-depth combat mechanics. Sonic is a platformer. Enemies should be basic obstacles shaping how you move through a level, not dedicated challenges in themselves.

Come on Dio, I've started loving you as of late, don't ruin it by saying we need more of the same simplicity that has made enemies pointless ever since Unleashed's daytime stages.

The whole Egg Pawns waving arms and firing gumballs schtick is old, a challenge should be something most/all would want out of the enemies littering stages instead of continuing with what is basically a cardboard cutout waiting to run through with zero effort to beat.

Just now, Josh said:

So this is more about style and having a vehicle to make the characters look cool than it is any consideration for the mechanics that make the franchise fun? Because I don't want Sonic to become a beat em up. We've lost enough platformers.

What mechanics are making this franchise fun whatsoever now? What are we working with that is remotely entertaining and acceptable to the majority audiences? What's making people by the games in swarms nowadays and find titles irresistible?

I'm not talking about making Sonic a beat-em-up whatsoever. If you focused on the Bayonetta franchise as a whole and bothered to grasp the mechanics within that would be beneficial for the Sonic series then you'd see the same light I'm looking at instead of angsting over Werehog-centric melodrama.

 

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