Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Scar]

I don't actually think Sonic Team as a whole need to be replaced. Most of the are obviously talented. Particularly the sound and art/graphics teams haven't really put a foot wrong in the grand scheme of things. Even the programmers are good enough at their job to deliver complete packages that aren't broken. If anything its the management/game design side of things that need change. Maybe Iizuka gotta go? Maybe the current director (I forget who he is) gotta go? Maybe its SEGA being a creative damper? 

There is absolutely no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There needs to be a leader at the helm of the franchise who has a distinct vision for what Sonic games should be, and the leadership skills to get the team on board and the skill to see it through.

Need someone with some goddamn balls to produce something with vision goddamn it. Vision.

[Chris Knopps]

9 minutes ago, Writer's Blah said:

The best case scenario we can hope for is that Mania ends up being a great game, SEGA learns what critics and consumers what from the franchise is a single, clear direction, and they pull a Breath of the Wild on us. Worst case, I don't even know what that is anymore.

Sonic is replaced by Yakuza as the face of the company and becomes the new Ristar/Alex Kidd.

[Sonikko]

2 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

I fail to see how Bayonetta's stages and/or battles are automated.

I really suggest playing through both titles in detail to really grasp the points I'm trying to make.

I own both titles on Wii U and I played them to completion. My automated comment was about the spectacle part. You know, Sonic gliding on missles don't give you many gameplay opportunities. Or Sonic on a flying vehicle that is basically a combat section with a moving background is not really Sonicy.

[Multikaris]

SA3 gave their two cents on the custom character:

 

 

https://m.facebook.com/notes/sonic-adventure-3/trailer-impressions/1292160727499964/

They really don't like the torso shape of the custom character.

[Nepenthe]

8 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Come on Dio, I've started loving you as of late, don't ruin it by saying we need more of the same simplicity that has made enemies pointless ever since Unleashed's daytime stages.

The whole Egg Pawns waving arms and firing gumballs schtick is old, a challenge should be something most/all would want out of the enemies littering stages instead of continuing with what is basically a cardboard cutout waiting to run through with zero effort to beat.

The point of enemies in platformers is to deliver damage and prohibit moving forward, not to offer a combat challenge. Enemies only need variety in movement and hazards, but they should not be a hindrance that requires excessive engagement to defeat like an enemy in a hack n slash.

[Wraith]

10 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

 

What mechanics are making this franchise fun whatsoever now? What are we working with that is remotely entertaining and acceptable to the majority audiences? What's making people by the games in swarms nowadays and find titles irresistible?

I'm not talking about making Sonic a beat-em-up whatsoever. If you focused on the Bayonetta franchise as a whole and bothered to grasp the mechanics within that would be beneficial for the Sonic series then you'd see the same light I'm looking at instead of angsting over Werehog-centric melodrama.

 

 

For the first part: "The modern games aren't so great right now" doesn't actually change the fact that your solution isn't very good.

The mechanics you cite in your posts are literally scripted sequences of Bayonetta doing cool shit and things like the plot and the fact that she breakdances. These aren't mechanics. This is a shallow surface level understanding of both Bayonetta AND Sonic.

Quote

Cinematic spectacle, action oriented, well written plot with depth, high speed thrills, and the combat itself, minus the demon centric stuff, is perfect for Sonic, ala break dancing the hell out of enemies surrounding you and such.

Many concepts in the Bayonetta franchise are exactly what Sonic needs as of late. I'm not talking about playing bloody murder edgehog, I'm talking about all the thrills and chills that franchise can give.

Sonic blasting through a city, catching a ride on top of a jet while going from building to building and such.

It's very easy to picture Sonic in many instances when playing Bayonetta and it makes me drool.

If you cared about what's going on under the hood, you would cite Bayonetta's taunting mechanic which enrages foes, or the Witch Time mechanic which reward the player's reaction time. You'd also realize that a lot of aspects of Bayonetta's mechanics, such as the incentive to keep enemies alive as long as possible for longer combos or the complex melee combat in a series where the central character has been able to charge through enemies and keep going without stopping has been a part of its appeal from day 1, don't actually fit Sonic at all. The instances that put people off have actually been the addition of combat mechanics such as Heroes and Black Knight get in the way of the "flow." The enemies in the classic games are often designed to stop your movement and be irritating in that sense, but they never take much time to take out once you figure out the angle of attack to take. This should be what combat in Sonic boils down to.

You do not care about mechanics beyond Sonic looking cool. Go back to complaining about the cutscenes.

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

The point of enemies in platformers is to deliver damage and prohibit moving forward, not to offer a combat challenge. Enemies only need variety in movement and hazards, but they should not be a hindrance that requires excessive engagement to defeat like an enemy in a hack n slash.

I'm not talking health bars and 5 minute dukes with every enemy. I just mean make them capable of defense and some variety of actions/attacks other than jumping around and popping bullets in the easiest way to avoid possible.

[Sonikko]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

I'm not talking health bars and 5 minute dukes with every enemy. I just mean make them capable of defense and some variety of actions/attacks other than jumping around and popping bullets in the easiest way to avoid possible.

Forces is doing just that.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Sonikko said:

Forces is doing just that.

No it's not. Don't even try that one. How have they defended themselves? How have they moved and attacked in any way, shape, or form that is more complex and/or interesting than Egg Pawns from Unleashed-Now?

Take another look at that Custom Character game pay especially, they are as weak and pointless as ever.

[Nepenthe]

Most enemies in Sonic history do not defend themselves.

[Sonikko]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

No it's not. Don't even try that one. How have they defended themselves? How have they moved and attacked in any way, shape, or form that is more complex and/or interesting than Egg Pawns from Unleashed-Now?

Take another look at that Custom Character game pay especially, they are as weak and pointless as ever.

How do you change that without introducing a health bar and melee combat?

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Nepenthe said:

Most enemies in Sonic history do not defend themselves.

Call me crazy for wanting them to do so then I suppose...

Just now, Sonikko said:

How do you change that without introducing a health bar and melee combat?

Lets see...

Try to jump on them or boost into them, BLAM!! a shield stops you.

Try to jump over them/ignore them? BLAM!! you get shot.

Smarter AI is not an impossible feat.

[Sonikko]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Call me crazy for wanting them to do so then I suppose...

Lets see...

Try to jump on them or boost into them, BLAM!! a shield stops you.

Try to jump over them/ignore them? BLAM!! you get shot.

Smarter AI is not an impossible feat.

Mirror's Edge, a game similar to Sonic, a game that's based on flow and momentum (btw if you guys haven't played that I suggest you give it a try, Catalyst is great too), has mandatory combat sequences and enemies just like you described them.

Guess what? Everyone agrees that those are the worst sections in the games, because you have to stop and fight, breaking your flow. How would that be different for Sonic?

[Nepenthe]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

Call me crazy for wanting them to do so then I suppose...

Again, the point of a platformer is to get from point A to point B in the most efficient way possible.

Enemies are there to stop the player's progress, either by dealing damage to kill them or by blocking the way to point B.

If an enemy defends itself, there's actually less reason to engage it than if it weren't, because the point of a platformer is to keep going. Unless Shield Bot is actively blocking a path, there's no reason to engage with him when he stops being a threat.

Defensive enemies are only good in very specific circumstances, such as bosses, gatekeepers of items, or as incidental level design gimmicks like acting as bumpers. Otherwise, there's no need for them.

[Chris Knopps]

4 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

Mirror's Edge, a game similar to Sonic, a game that's based on flow and momentum (btw if you guys haven't played that I suggest you give it a try, Catalyst is great too), has mandatory combat sequences and enemies just like you described them.

Guess what? Everyone agrees that those are the worst sections in the game, because you have to stop and fight, breaking your flow. How would that be different for Sonic?

Try and picture Sonic CD/OVA styled methods of attack, perhaps something seen in the opening of Unleashed using a combination of dodge and zip-about abilities you can chain together while maintaining your momentum and moving on beyond simple homing attacks if you so choose to add flare to how you're taking enemies down.

Try to tell me nobody wanted to take down an enemy the way Sonic did in the Unleashed opening.

There's your momentum based melee styled point A to B Sonic game right there.

[Sonikko]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

Try and picture Sonic CD/OVA styled methods of attack, perhaps something seen in the opening of Unleashed using a combination of dodge and zip-about abilities you can chain together while maintaining your momentum and moving on beyond simple homing attacks if you so choose to add flare to how you're taking enemies down.

Try to tell me nobody wanted to take down an enemy the way Sonic did in the Unleashed opening.

Then that's totally different than the games you cited, Bayonetta has nothing to do with the Unleashed or CD opening.

Besides, those moves are no different than a ground homing attack if you ask me, so yeah it's cool but nothing groundbreaking.

[Diogenes]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

Come on Dio, I've started loving you as of late, don't ruin it by saying we need more of the same simplicity that has made enemies pointless ever since Unleashed's daytime stages.

This is not about simplicity. Enemies that stand around and do nothing but get knocked over aren't good, but that's not what I'm suggesting. What I'm saying is that the purpose of enemies in a platformer isn't for you to engage in complex combat with them, but to influence how you move through the level, because "how you move through the level" is what a platformer is fundamentally about. When you spot an enemy, what do you do, attack or dodge? If you dodge, do you dodge left, right, or jump over? Where does each option leave you? What does it cost you? If you attack, which attack do you use, a roll, a jump, a homing attack, something else? How does that attack affect your movement? How does hitting the enemy with that attack affect your movement? Are you sped up? Slowed down? Bounced off in some direction? This is what enemies are for in a platformer.

[Scar]

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

This is not about simplicity. Enemies that stand around and do nothing but get knocked over aren't good, but that's not what I'm suggesting. What I'm saying is that the purpose of enemies in a platformer isn't for you to engage in complex combat with them, but to influence how you move through the level, because "how you move through the level" is what a platformer is fundamentally about. When you spot an enemy, what do you do, attack or dodge? If you dodge, do you dodge left, right, or jump over? Where does each option leave you? What does it cost you? If you attack, which attack do you use, a roll, a jump, a homing attack, something else? How does that attack affect your movement? How does hitting the enemy with that attack affect your movement? Are you sped up? Slowed down? Bounced off in some direction? This is what enemies are for in a platformer.

In essence there is complexity in that simplicity. The complexity stems from movement rather than combat. That's what distinguishes a platformer from an action game.

[Chris Knopps]

13 minutes ago, Scar said:

In essence there is complexity in that simplicity. The complexity stems from movement rather than combat. That's what distinguishes a platformer from an action game.

Isn't the franchise technically supposed to be both?

If you want a pure platformer you essentially have Mario in a blue spiky costume.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Isn't the franchise technically supposed to be both?

If you want a pure platformer you essentially have Mario in a blue spiky costume.

...no, dude.

Like, "action" is about the vaguest genre there is, most games are going to fall into it by some measure, Mario included. Sonic is not any more of an action game than Mario. You run, you jump, you occasionally bop an enemy, that's a platformer.

[Chris Knopps]

13 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

...no, dude.

Like, "action" is about the vaguest genre there is, most games are going to fall into it by some measure, Mario included. Sonic is not any more of an action game than Mario. You run, you jump, you occasionally bop an enemy, that's a platformer.

I dunno...

I always viewed Sonic as having the most "action" of any platformer, thus consider it an action-platformer kind of franchise.

Back in the day maybe Crash was a good rival for this category but... Yeah.

[Diogenes]

What would you consider "action" to even be?

Certainly wasn't combat. Sonic was absolutely in the "just jump on it" category of Mario. Shit Mario had fireballs and kicked shells and thrown veggies and tail swipes and on and on while Sonic just had a spin jump and the roll. "Intersect your character with the enemy while you are in attack mode" is all it ever was.

[Wraith]

It's actually pretty intentionally made less complicated to defeat an enemy in Sonic compared to Mario because of Sonic's faster pace giving him less precision. Sonic's entire body is the hitbox compared to Mario, where you can only attack with his feet.

[Blue Blood]

17 minutes ago, Josh said:

It's actually pretty intentionally made less complicated to defeat an enemy in Sonic compared to Mario because of Sonic's faster pace giving him less precision. Sonic's entire body is the hitbox compared to Mario, where you can only attack with his feet.

And the homing attack makes it easier. But just to say something about game design design here and how Sonic Team suck at it, this game has got more Unleashed/Generations style enemies that spend long building up an attack that they never do anything before they get bopped. We've only seen a small handful so far, but at this stage, none of the enemies actually do anything. It's just like Generations. If there was one thing the I wanted Sonic Team to learn from Mania, it wad how to make enemies actually behave like genuine obstacles again, rather than just crash test dummies and homing attack stepping-stones. Enemies need to attack/move/defend all the time. Just waiting there to be jumped on whilst doing nothing is a bit shit. 

[JezMM]

Generations DID have threatening enemies but only in the final sets of stages, where essentially it was a case of "if you keep going full speed without noticing the enemies, you'll get punished" - especially the pickaxe throwing Egg Pawns in Planet Wisp.

We just need way more of the inbetween of the two extremes introduced sooner in the game.