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Badnik Mechanic

Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

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So...

Anybody notice how this game actually IS bringing back missions...?

It's there with the World Map icon in the Character Creator scenes...

I guess there's one reason to like the game, Adventure 2 and Unleashed along with Generations did that much right at least. I've always loved missions in the Sonic franchise.

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6 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Sonic 2006 didn't even crack 900K in the first two fiscal quarters of its release. Said it earlier with Kuzu's post, but consumer trust in a brand can only go so far if your product is bad or your legacy has been long suffered from a lack of quality. Boom was supposed to be a new spin on Sonic's image, and that ended up bombing harder than anything Sega/Sonic Team had ever done with the series.

Agreed with the rest of your post otherwise, except I honestly think Sonic Team is well past the way of learning. That's not to say I think they are a terrible studio that should be shut down, they have great artists, musicians, and graphic designers; but their game designers and studio heads constantly seem to operate on a wavelength outside everyone else and they keep singlehandedly holding the games back from being great to either being "good enough" or plain mediocre (alongside the rare occasion of being outright bad); and unfortunately those segments of the studio don't seem to be changing their ways or being replaced anytime soon. The studio has --and from the looks of Forces, I'd say still is-- been horribly inept at managing Sonic as an IP; and I'm probably going to get some disagreement for this, but I do think its been high time for a while for Sega to divorce them from the Sonic IP and hand it over to another internal division or Sega-owned studio.

Which is why I want to know where the rot is. Is it Iizuka? Is it someone above him? Is it the team itself? Where did the bad ideas come from? Sonic Lost World while a pretty poor game had the correct intent. They wanted to create a new paradigm for what a Sonic game should be, that is more sustainable than the Boost formula and allows for more creative game design. With LW's critical flop though they've basically regressed to what looks worse than Unleashed. Why? Why after all the progress did they go backwards? I can't imagine the team themselves nor even the perennial boogeyman Iizuka would want something like this...

Its why I think this is some dumb focus-tested, marketing department approved nonsense, but hey you never know. Could be that its Iizuka and other leaders at Sonic Team that are the problem. I dunno. But I want to.

 

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9 minutes ago, Scar said:

Which is why I want to know where the rot is. Is it Iizuka? Is it someone above him? Is it the team itself? Where did the bad ideas come from? Sonic Lost World while a pretty poor game had the correct intent. They wanted to create a new paradigm for what a Sonic game should be, that is more sustainable than the Boost formula and allows for more creative game design. With LW's critical flop though they've basically regressed to what looks worse than Unleashed. Why? Why after all the progress did they go backwards? I can't imagine the team themselves nor even the perennial boogeyman Iizuka would want something like this...

Its why I think this is some dumb focus-tested, marketing department approved nonsense, but hey you never know. Could be that its Iizuka and other leaders at Sonic Team that are the problem. I dunno. But I want to.

 

That's what happens when they try to be the very thing they created the franchise to be the opposite of in every sense of the word from enemies, to design, to music, etc.

Had they not obsessed over Mario and Nintendo consumers they could have made something out of Lost World's direction that was actually worthwhile, with the only stage I feel proving this being, sadly, the Zelda stage in the game.

Gotta get dem Mario boyeez though!

People aren't going to buy into some uninspired poor-man's version of Mario, (or Splatoon as some have been calling Forces out as trying to imitate), they buy into the Sonic franchise because it's Sonic, doing its own thing in its own way more often than not until lately where they just want to do whatever the others are doing that seems popular enough and think they can make work for Sonic.

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12 minutes ago, Operationgamer17 said:

Source? Because I don't remember that being mentioned anywhere.

Sega's fiscal year 2007 IR report. The game had only sold 870K within the fiscal year of its release, with 550K in Sega's third quarter (when the game was first released, the PS3 version had been delayed during this time, so the game was available only on the 360) and an additional 320K in the fourth quarter (when the PS3 version finally saw release).

People like to point to the 360 version of the game getting a "Platinum (Family) Hits" label as proof it sold well, but when you look at the actual numbers, the barometer / sales milestone for obtaining that label seems to be pretty low in reality.

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It sold almost 900k on a single console within the fiscal year of release, which ended roughly 3-4 months after release. Let's not forget it was one of the worst reviewed games in the history of gaming, up there with Amiga ET as far as mocking goes. And it still sold almost 900k on a single console, and passed the million mark when it released on PS3.

Boom is a similar occasion, you could argue that people bought 2006 just for the lulz, but then why didn't they buy Boom too, since it appears to be even more broken than 2006 is.

The brand just lost its former power, imho.

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1 minute ago, Sonikko said:

Boom is a similar occasion, you could argue that people bought 2006 just for the lulz, but then why didn't they buy Boom too, since it appears to be even more broken than 2006 is.

Let me tell you about a little failure that we in the business like to call: The Wii U. 

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46 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Where'd you hear that?

I assume they might've got that impression from the Destructoid article.

Quote

Back in October, before Sonic Forces was even named, Sega said that this game would have three different gameplay styles. They were: modern Sonic, classic Sonic, and a third unrevealed style. This is the third one, a mode that's separate from what Sonic does on his own time. Finally, a way for Sonic fans to express themselves.

https://www.destructoid.com/sonic-forces-will-have-customizable-playable-characters-436357.phtml

I don't think any other site describes it as a separate mode, so it might just be weird wording.

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Still, less than 300k? The Wii U had around 15m users (not sure about the actual number but it was around 13-14m at least some years ago) and the attach rate was very high. The game was hyped a lot by SEGA itself, so, people knew about it, and just decided to ignore it because it was not worth it at all. The fact it was on Wii U is even worse, because the console had very few games, and still people decided to skip a new Sonic release because it was not worth it at all.

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1 minute ago, Sonikko said:

It sold almost 900k on a single console within the fiscal year of release, which ended roughly 3-4 months after release. Let's not forget it was one of the worst reviewed games in the history of gaming, up there with Amiga ET as far as mocking goes. And it still sold almost 900k on a single console, and passed the million mark when it released on PS3.

Boom is a similar occasion, you could argue that people bought 2006 just for the lulz, but then why didn't they buy Boom too, since it appears to be even more broken than 2006 is.

The brand just lost its former power, imho.

a70f6f1bf6a756eecd0247a1b036c171.gif

Because not only is Rise of Lyric a bad game, they patched the few things wrong with it that actually made it fun.

 

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4 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

It sold almost 900k on a single console within the fiscal year of release, which ended roughly 3-4 months after release. Let's not forget it was one of the worst reviewed games in the history of gaming, up there with Amiga ET as far as mocking goes. And it still sold almost 900k on a single console, and passed the million mark when it released on PS3.

I'm the history of gaming lol not even close. Duke did worse. It was panned but not that heavily

But it's sales were impressive. I know I bought 3 copies

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21 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Let me tell you about a little failure that we in the business like to call: The Wii U. 

Wii U was a huge flop, but it has a fair amount of million sellers, and said games for the system do hold a relatively high attach rate. Super Mario 3D World is the worst-selling 3D Mario title in the series, but it still sold over five million units on the console-- both of the sales of the first two Boom games combined barely made up 1/10th of that title's sales. Moreover, the Wii U's poor installbase only applies for Rise of Lyric, the 3DS Boom games were on a vastly larger and more healthy installbase and they still bombed as well.

The failure of the Boom games were a perfect storm of bad quality and a diminished brand, in addition to a weak installbase concerning RoL.

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22 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

Still, less than 300k? The Wii U had around 15m users (not sure about the actual number but it was around 13-14m at least some years ago) and the attach rate was very high. The game was hyped a lot by SEGA itself, so, people knew about it, and just decided to ignore it because it was not worth it at all. The fact it was on Wii U is even worse, because the console had very few games, and still people decided to skip a new Sonic release because it was not worth it at all.

Sonic Generations sold 1.85 million across PS3, 360, PC, and 3DS. 1/4 of 1.85 million is 462,500, meaning that's how much it sold on each individual platform. And each of those systems has to have a high install base by then, especially the PS3, 360, and PC.

 

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This franchise has seen its own sales gradually going down in the past 20 years, I'm not making this up. 

My point was that Sonic 2006 was a very bad game, and it managed to sell 900k in 4 months on a single console, 5 years later Generations (which is regarded as the best 3D game out there, and the 20th anniversary game, so a big title with lots of promotion) sold 1.9m across 4 consoles, which is barely double. The game after that sold 600k copies on the Wii U, yeah it was a dying console and all that, but Mario 3D World, Mario Kart 8,  Smash and many other broke the 5m mark. 

There's simply no excuse for Sonic to be selling so few games except that the brand doesn't have the same power and importance it had 10 years ago.

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15 minutes ago, Operationgamer17 said:

Sonic Generations sold 1.85 million across PS3, 360, PC, and 3DS. 1/4 of 1.85 million is 462,500, meaning that's how much it sold on each individual platform. And each of those systems has to have a high install base by then, especially the PS3, 360, and PC.

That's more of a rough estimate, we don't actually know how much each version it sold on each platform, outside of the Steam PC version via SteamSpy (and even that's a tough cookie to figure out, due to how it counts times when the game was discounted or even given away for free during certain sales or events). The 3DS version of the game is also technically a different game from the console versions, so that further muddles the estimate waters.

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1 minute ago, Sonikko said:

This franchise has seen its own sales gradually going down in the past 20 years, I'm not making this up. 

My point was that Sonic 2006 was a very bad game, and it managed to sell 900k in 4 months on a single console, 5 years later Generations (which is regarded as the best 3D game out there, and the 20th anniversary game, so a big title with lots of promotion) sold 1.9m across 4 consoles, which is barely double. The game after that sold 600k copies on the Wii U, yeah it was a dying console and all that, but Mario 3D World, Mario Kart 8,  Smash and many other broke the 5m mark. 

There's simply no excuse for Sonic to be selling so few games except that the brand doesn't have the same power and importance it had 10 years ago.

What is the final total of 06's sales?

Furthermore, why are we comparing any platforming franchise's performance to Mario when Mario is still the only platforming franchise left that regularly breaks 5m in a reasonable amount of time at all? You will be lucky to break a million in this genre regardless.

Even if Sonic was consistently better than what he is now, the fact that he's in the platforming genre at all is in itself a crutch. No one cares about the genre anymore.

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9 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

This franchise has seen its own sales gradually going down in the past 20 years, I'm not making this up. 

My point was that Sonic 2006 was a very bad game, and it managed to sell 900k in 4 months on a single console, 5 years later Generations (which is regarded as the best 3D game out there, and the 20th anniversary game, so a big title with lots of promotion) sold 1.9m across 4 consoles, which is barely double. The game after that sold 600k copies on the Wii U, yeah it was a dying console and all that, but Mario 3D World, Mario Kart 8,  Smash and many other broke the 5m mark. 

There's simply no excuse for Sonic to be selling so few games except that the brand doesn't have the same power and importance it had 10 years ago.

Sega's missteps are finally catching up to them. It's sad because it means that the budget is probably declining too. And I'm not so sure how they can fix the issue at this point. They should have actually focused on quality all this time instead of just expecting the cash-cow to keep giving, because now it's actually drying up. They were short-sighted.

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5 minutes ago, Operationgamer17 said:

Sonic's been in that kind of situation before, though. 

http://www.tssznews.com/2016/11/29/in-depth-sonic-sales-on-nintendo-platforms/

That point MAY be valid for Boom, since it was a spin-off a-la 3D Blast and Riders, but it surely does not apply to Lost World.

The genesis sales are like that because Sonic 2 was given away with the console for free, Sonic 1 was a brand new game, Sonic 3 and Knuckles came out after three games in the serie that had basically the same formula in the span of what, 3 years? On the same console, it makes sense for them to sell reasonably less than the first game. Besides 1.6m for the time was not bad or average at all.

The fact that Lost World sold as much as 3D Blast or Riders is concerning, and the fact that TWO Boom games sold barely half that amount is even worse. 

 

3 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

What is the final total of 06's sales?

Furthermore, why are we comparing any platforming franchise's performance to Mario when Mario is still the only platforming franchise left that regularly breaks 5m in a reasonable amount of time at all? You will be lucky to break a million in this genre regardless.

Even if Sonic was consistently better than what he is now, the fact that he's in the platforming genre at all is in itself a crutch. No one cares about the genre anymore.

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/83085/ratchet-amp-clank-2016/

Ratchet and Clank still sells well, and it's a platform. A pretty generic one if you ask me.

I'm not sure about 2006 total sales, it says around 900k on both consoles on vgchartz.

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3 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

What is the final total of 06's sales?

Furthermore, why are we comparing any platforming franchise's performance to Mario when Mario is still the only platforming franchise left that regularly breaks 5m in a reasonable amount of time at all? You will be lucky to break a million in this genre regardless.

Even if Sonic was consistently better than what he is now, the fact that he's in the platforming genre at all is in itself a crutch. No one cares about the genre anymore.

I have to admit that Gamma from SA or Tails/Eggman from SA2 would be the best game play element to return to the franchise when you consider just how popular that type of thing is nowadays and how folks in general would likely prefer Sonic to grow up a tad again compared to experiences between Colors - now.

Even if it doesn't seem all that fitting to some it was a fairly solid experience and to me performed better than Big and Knuckles/Rouge game play as a more fitting kind of addition to the franchise.

Forces seems to be implementing this in its own way, focusing on your Sonic thing while at the same time reintroducing what Gamma and Tails/Eggman did way back when. So in regards to the concept of shooting/weaponry I do consider it a right step to compliment your typical Sonic centric stuff.

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4 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

That point MAY be valid for Boom, since it was a spin-off a-la 3D Blast and Riders, but it surely does not apply to Lost World.

The genesis sales are like that because Sonic 2 was given away with the console for free, Sonic 1 was a brand new game, Sonic 3 and Knuckles came out after three games in the serie that had basically the same formula in the span of what, 3 years? On the same console, it makes sense for them to sell reasonably less than the first game. Besides 1.6m for the time was not bad or average at all.

The fact that Lost World sold as much as 3D Blast or Riders is concerning, and the fact that TWO Boom games sold barely half that amount is even worse. 

As pointed out in the article, Rush Adventure did just as bad at 378,000.

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4 minutes ago, Operationgamer17 said:

As pointed out in the article, Rush Adventure did just as bad at 378,000.

It's a low budget spin-off, you can't compare that with a main serie game or one that is really pushed like Boom. 

It's just different, the exposure the game is going to get is different. 

Besides Sonic's reputation was not that good in 2007. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

The thing to do is to reinvent the Sonic franchise in 3D on its founding principles a la Breath of the Wild, not to put in another disparate mechanic just because it's popular.

Have we learned nothing from the CaC debate?

SEGA just don't have the interest in doing anything of the sort. They don't want to get Sonic back in track. They want Sonic to make money again by appealing to the masses. If they actually wanted to "fix" or "reinvent" Sonic, Forces would absolutely not be a thing. Nor would Boom have been been allowed to be utter crap, nor would Lost World have copied so much from Mario and nor would the first true-to-form expansion of the original Sonic formula be being outsourced to a group of indie fans after SEGA pissed everyone off with Sonic 4. Twice, might I add.

I've got a lot of contempt for this game. I think that I feel betrayed somehow... SEGA's efforts to actually do right by the franchise and its fans are superficial at best. Mania is a blessing. 

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2 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

SEGA just don't have the interest in doing anything of the sort. They don't want to get Sonic back in track. They want Sonic to make money again by appealing to the masses. If they actually wanted to "fix" or "reinvent" Sonic, Forces would absolutely not be a thing. Nor would Boom have been been allowed to be utter crap, nor would Lost World have copied so much from Mario and nor would the first true-to-form expansion of the original Sonic formula be being outsourced to a group of indie fans after SEGA pissed everyone off with Sonic 4. 

I've got a lot of contempt for this game. I think that I feel betrayed somehow...

Again...

Bayonetta team...

Making the next Sonic game after Forces...

Problem solved I feel.

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