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Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"


Badnik Mechanic

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4 minutes ago, JezMM said:

Generations DID have threatening enemies but only in the final sets of stages, where essentially it was a case of "if you keep going full speed without noticing the enemies, you'll get punished" - especially the pickaxe throwing Egg Pawns in Planet Wisp.

We just need way more of the inbetween of the two extremes introduced sooner in the game.

Literally it was only the axe throwing Pawn in Generations that posed a threat. Everything else just waited for you to attack it before launching a painfully slew attack. 

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Just now, Blue Blood said:

Literally it was only the axe throwing Pawn in Generations that posed a threat. Everything else just waiting for you to attack it. 

I'd say, while they ARE tied to a set-piece, the laser-shooting Egg Pawns from the end of Rooftop Run are fine too.  I like that you can only attack them indirectly, forcing you to "survive" their attack for a moment without the pace of the level coming to a halt.  BUT they are tied to that specific set-piece and require auto-running to work, so they are more "set-piece" than they are a natural level gimmick that can be used in multiple ways depending on layout, like a good enemy should.

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I really liked the way SLW handled enemies, tbh. They all had their own attack patterns that made them difficult to dodge or attack in a way, and even the most basic of enemies, the Motobug, punished you in 3D for the first time, speeding towards you as soon as you ran near them carelessly. More of that in mainline Sonic games would be great, imo, as long as they Telegraph stuff properly. *cough*kick-only-enemies*cough*

 

Though, I've always thought it'd be cool to give baddies a good combat edge to make their threat feel more meaningful, in the more serious games, and design some flowing and intuitive yet powerful gameplay behind it that depends on how well you preform, rather than how Heroes or the like have handled it.

Like, say an enemy has three tiers of damage: light, medium, and heavy. Then, Sonic's momentum would directly impact how much damage he could preform, the faster you go, the better of a chance you have at defeating them. And, when slower than normal, that's where the enemies get aggressive, and you spend your time focused on dodging the attacks and building enough speed to defeat them.

It's partially inspired by how Transformers Devastation handles driving-based attacks, which is a platinum game, as well, but I think this kind of a combat style could really help make the gameplay feel more meaningful in the action department, and would have a nice, comfy space alongside the more "radical" games Sonic could have had.

If those games were handled well overall, of course...

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I actually hated Lost World's enemies because you never know which enemies you can kick or not. How was I suppose to know the f*cking Antons were so strong? :V

 

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4 minutes ago, Jango said:

I actually hated Lost World's enemies because you never know which enemies you can kick or not. How was I suppose to know the f*cking Antons were so wrong? :V

You can kick every enemy in the game...except for the enemies you can't lock-on to at all.

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1 minute ago, Jango said:

I actually hated Lost World's enemies because you never know which enemies you can kick or not. How was I suppose to know the f*cking Antons were so wrong? :V

I don't thin that anybody liked that. It was stupid. 

But 

The enemies all had different behaviour and required a little thought and effort to take out our avoid their attacks. Nothing mind blowing or taxing to figure out. It was just more in-depth that homing attack to win. It was like the classics. If all enemies could be taken out with a regular homing attack (or spindash of they  were protected from above link), then the enemies would be perfect. 

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It was like the classics, only not as good. SA2 did it better tho', with the somersault. I miss the somersault, speaking of which, especially when you jump right after it, and Sonic flips around almost like in slowmo. It was fun.

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2 hours ago, Chris Knopps said:

Sonic is replaced by Yakuza as the face of the company and becomes the new Ristar/Alex Kidd.

So what you sayin' is...

Give Toshihiro Nagoshi, current CFO of SEGA AND Producer of Yakuza the reigns of Sonic Team?

...fck it I'm all for it. Least his games have a vision and direction. Let him go nuts.

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Just now, TCB said:

So what you sayin' is...

Give Toshihiro Nagoshi, current CFO of SEGA AND Producer of Yakuza the reigns of Sonic Team?

...fck it I'm all for it. Least his games have a vision and direction. Let him go nuts.

I actually meant Sonic would pretty much cease as a running series and become kind of like a nostalgic icon that randomly appears like Alex Kidd while Yakuza replaces the Sonic franchise as the big thing/face of the company.

Sonic would become the equivalent of Oswald.

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I get why people didn't like the handling of the kick, and by all rights it is poor game design with how unexplained it is, but to be honest, it never really became much of an issue for me. I'd homing attack them expecting for it to work, sure, but as soon as I saw that it didn't work and they either injured or trapped me, I'd step back, make a note of it, and try any other ways to defeat them available, which just so happened to be the kick in the end. In my mind, while it needs some way to be telegraphed visually for the overall audience, the challenge they posed by subverting my expectations was no more irritating than finding out hitting spikes on baddies will get you hurt.

It'd be a problem if you didn't experiment with the controls and don't know about the kick the entire time though, yeah. Which, again, just demands better game design to prevent that.

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Oh. 

 

As much as I love the Yakuxa series now and will do what I can to support it 100%, I just can't see it be the de facto big thing for the company, especially since in Japan SEGA as a brand relies much more than just Sonic anyway. As far as here in the West is concerned Yakuza been dormant until recently, and even THEN we're basically getting localized ports of games that came out couple years prior in Japan.

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1 minute ago, TCB said:

Oh. 

 

As much as I love the Yakuxa series now and will do what I can to support it 100%, I just can't see it be the de facto big thing for the company, especially since in Japan SEGA as a brand relies much more than just Sonic anyway. As far as here in the West is concerned Yakuza been dormant until recently, and even THEN we're basically getting localized ports of games that came out couple years prior in Japan.

I'm just making a worst case scenario guess and assuming based on the franchise that seems most popular and profitable next to Sonic globally.

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Just now, Chris Knopps said:

I'm just making a worst case scenario guess and assuming based on the franchise that seems most popular and profitable next to Sonic globally.

Fair enough. 

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8 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

I actually meant Sonic would pretty much cease as a running series and become kind of like a nostalgic icon that randomly appears like Alex Kidd while Yakuza replaces the Sonic franchise as the big thing/face of the company.

Sonic would become the equivalent of Oswald.

A tad off-topic but I'm pretty sure that's how Japan sees SEGA nowadays (and how it has seen it for a while).

That and they own Atlus now so Persona is somewhere in there as well.

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5 minutes ago, Velvet Reindeer said:

A tad off-topic but I'm pretty sure that's how Japan sees SEGA nowadays (and how it has seen it for a while).

That and they own Atlus now so Persona is somewhere in there as well.

Based on the reception/sales/reputation of the Sonic franchise now and the way things like Forces keep popping out it does make you wonder just where Sonic is on SEGA's priority list at the present and if replacement is a plausible thing.

Granted on the Western side of things there's the same push, but with Japan kind of being the big daddy of all divisions, they would have the power I think to say "F@$k this under-performing franchise. They love Yakuza, lets milk that now." and/or whatever other franchises have reasonable enough install bases and profitability around this globe of ours.

(Hell, I thought Spyro would last forever, so...)

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8 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

Just because I've been emotional the past two days doesn't mean I've been irrational.

Regardless, all the character creator is doing, with the information we know, is adding a bunch of surprisingly boring base edits of Modern Sonic to the game that don't take advantage of the engine or even their individual species. This is amazingly dumb in light of the fact that we have characters with established personalities and better powers and move sets just sitting on a shelf collecting dust. It's not paying its way from even a conceptual angle. There's also the fact that they're presenting it in a main line Sonic game, meaning there is potential for this dumb concept to worm its way into the games proper as a permanent staple like Classic Sonic and the Wisps did. It's symptomatic of the unnecessary compartmentalization of game mechanics that makes these games feel disjointed and Sonic Team look like they don't have any real control over this ship anymore.

I also don't know why we keep being told to ignore the haters if we in any way care about the franchise's reputation as a whole. I don't want it to be seen as a laughing stock and I don't know why others don't care that it is.

I've said before but you worry far too much about what other people outside the Sonic fanbase think. Those who have decided to mock the Sonic fanbase because our interests will never stop their attacks, no matter how much the Sonic fanbase tries to change itself to become more 'socially acceptable' in the eyes of a few trolls. Moreover, trying to push away segments of the Sonic fanbase, like those who created OCs, only diminishes the Sonic fanbase as a whole. Conversely, the character creator in Sonic Forces is a great opportunity to restore a sense of pride to the Sonic fanbase, to have fun with the new OCs that Sonic Forces will make possible. The only ones will be a laughing stock then are those who cling to the same tired insults despite the broad appeal and popularity of the character creator across social media.

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8 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

.

I also don't know why we keep being told to ignore the haters if we in any way care about the franchise's reputation as a whole. I don't want it to be seen as a laughing stock and I don't know why others don't care that it is.

Because there are two major problems outside of our control. 

1) there are people who just like to shit on sonic. Some of those people , work in games journalism. and literally turn into 10 year olds when anything new sonic comes up because that's the one thing that allows them to be unprofessional. 

2) Sega doesn't have a coherent plan on what to do with sonic right now, and has been making games justifying peoples criticisms.

So yeah, unless you can get sega to actually focus and create varying  and good products that have sonic in them on a more normative basis. We can start dealing with that. But even then you have to deal with actual journalists and youtube people just shitting on sonic and spreading bad " This is what sonic should be " or " sonic should have stopped after this " things about sonic. 

If you have a plan to stop those people with sometimes up to millions of followers to stop doing that, please inform me.  

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7 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Because there are two major problems outside of our control. 

1) there are people who just like to shit on sonic. Some of those people , work in games journalism. and literally turn into 10 year olds when anything new sonic comes up because that's the one thing that allows them to be unprofessional. 

2) Sega doesn't have a coherent plan on what to do with sonic right now, and has been making games justifying peoples criticisms.

So yeah, unless you can get sega to actually focus and create varying  and good products that have sonic in them on a more normative basis. We can start dealing with that. But even then you have to deal with actual journalists and youtube people just shitting on sonic and spreading bad " This is what sonic should be " or " sonic should have stopped after this " things about sonic. 

If you have a plan to stop those people with sometimes up to millions of followers to stop doing that, please inform me.  

Exactly, some people just hate Sonic and nothing will change their minds. Even if Sega were to alter future Sonic games in response to their 'criticism' they will simply adopt another stance and continue spewing hatred across the internet without ever admitting their own hypocrisy. It's unfortunate that many of those people hold prominent positions in the gaming media, using their jobs as a soap box to slander Sonic games at every opportunity. Because of this it's far better to simply continue onwards regardless of the occasional slander. A character creator in Sonic Forces is a fun idea and no amount of blind hatred towards the Sonic fanbase can diminish that enthusiasm.

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The only way to stop this is Sega making good games, consistently.And even then it would take even more time for those people to look silly, or for those people to get out of whatever business they are in. 

We as a fanbase shouldn't have to act as an advertising agency for a series that does not want to make itself look good.

Gonna stop there, leads into a rant

Point is, as a fan, fans, fanbase, whatever, you are a person with shit to do and valuable time. Is your time worth trying to help some people who don't want to help themselves. There's nothing you can do, unless you have a LOT of money to start buying stock in sega, and brute force your way into getting whatever it is you want out of sonic. 

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Actually the real answer is propaganda - establish a separate network of pro-Sega media organisations that can counter the 'criticism' as mere white noise. Because back in the day, when Sega still made consoles, there was an official Sega magazine in nearly every country and several other friendly media outlets on top of that. But alas print media is dead, even the big internet outlets like IGN and Gamespot are struggling thanks to declining ad revenue. Establishing that pro-Sega network just isn't as straightforward as it was during the 90s.

To that end, social media is the next best thing. Getting a positive Sonic meme to go viral, amongst popular Twitch and YouTube channels, will go a long way towards negating some of the worst slander aimed at Sonic games and the Sonic fanbase. This character creator in Sonic Forces can do just that, as a character creator represents a nearly infinite source of new content for hungry social media channels. That why I think that Sonic Forces, with its character creator, has the potential to become one of the most important Sonic games ever made.

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7 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Actually the real answer is propaganda - establish a separate network of pro-Sega media organisations that can counter the 'criticism' as mere white noise.

No because people have lives and things to do. Also its what places like youtube are for ( and why youtube until recently was destroying dedicated gaming news sites ) . And even then, all that wont change if sega can't constantly make good games. That's my critcism, you seem to believe its just hot air, no sega's lack of direction for what they wanted to do with this franchise is part of the problem, and its an ideological problem. And no amount of fans defending them is actually going to fix this problem, they have to fix that problem. Or they are going to face an eventual massive decline on how profitable their mascot is. 

You shouldn't feel the need to be a PR firm for a company , for free one. But two for a company who isn't making themselves look good, despite hiring people like ruby eclipse  for that reason. The fact that you feel the need to use " propaganda " to fix sonic's imagine is a problem. 

When I sing the praises of the games I like , the things I like I do it because they deserve because I feel like they have earned recognition its not receiving. But what you suggest is to fix sonic's imagine, despite him not trying to do. This sounds like the PR Firm of a celebrity who wont stop doing whatever career ending horseshit they are into. Sega is not paying you for you time, and sega might not even give a sonic game good enough to be worth your efforts. 

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Just now, Shadowlax said:

No because people have lives and things to do. Also its what places like youtube are for ( and why youtube until recently was destroying dedicated gaming news sites ) . And even then, all that wont change if sega can't constantly make good games. That's my critcism, you seem to believe its just hot air, no sega's lack of direction for what they wanted to do with this franchise is part of the problem, and its an ideological problem. And no amount of fans defending them is actually going to fix this problem, they have to fix that problem. Or they are going to face an eventual massive decline on how profitable their mascot is. 

I never said this was all something that the Sonic fanbase had to do itself. Establishing official magazines (for example) is only something that Sega can do themselves. Of course, as I pointed out in my last post, establishing new official magazines in 2017 probably won't work since few people buy physical magazines anymore. Regardless, the Sonic fanbase has little recourse but to continue onwards despite the oppressive atmosphere that surrounds our community. Things aren't perfect but they are getting better. In its own way a character creator is uniquely suited to negating the worst slander; it's such a fun and absurdly self-aware idea that's its essentially immune to the usual insults.

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2 hours ago, Kintor said:

I've said before but you worry far too much about what other people outside the Sonic fanbase think.

But...that is the biggest concern. The majority of the fan base will buy it eventually regardless, as they are just that, fans. Even if some of us will purely because we are collector's of Sonic items in general, or because some of us like to have completed every Sonic game regardless of quality.

But it's the people outside the fan base, the ones he's worried about, that will make or break the sales. In the bigger picture the Sonic fan base is a miniscule portion of the sales of any of the games, same goes for any franchise really. It's the general public that any game has to win over, that same general public who are the biggest portion of the overall sales of any product.

If the general public has a negative view on the product, or it releases alongside games that draw more attention, or early reviews are terrible, it can kill the game on arrival. There are many games good and bad that have fallen to these and other issues including when people aren't entirely won over before launch and go "hmm it looks good but I'll buy it when it's cheaper" or "I'll get it when it's second hand".

Sonic's only real draw is that it is a name that people recognise, a well known franchise and character, but even then it's not guaranteed major sales like some other franchises, as the franchise itself has fallen, even with the slight upspike in popularity thanks to well received games like Unleashed, Colours and Generations.

Like it or not it's not the fans the decide the fate of the game, and being concerned what others outside of our community are thinking is one of the most sensible things one that is concerned about the game in general could be worried about. 

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1 minute ago, Tenko said:

But...that is the biggest concern. The majority of the fan base will buy it eventually regardless, as they are just that, fans. Even if some of us will purely because we are collector's of Sonic items in general, or because some of us like to have completed every Sonic game regardless of quality.

But it's the people outside the fan base, the ones he's worried about, that will make or break the sales. In the bigger picture the Sonic fan base is a miniscule portion of the sales of any of the games, same goes for any franchise really. It's the general public that any game has to win over, that same general public who are the biggest portion of the overall sales of any product.

If the general public has a negative view on the product, or it releases alongside games that draw more attention, or early reviews are terrible, it can kill the game on arrival. There are many games good and bad that have fallen to these and other issues including when people aren't entirely won over before launch and go "hmm it looks good but I'll buy it when it's cheaper" or "I'll get it when it's second hand".

Sonic's only real draw is that it is a name that people recognise, a well known franchise and character, but even then it's not guaranteed major sales like some other franchises, as the franchise itself has fallen, even with the slight upspike in popularity thanks to well received games like Unleashed, Colours and Generations.

Like it or not it's not the fans the decide the fate of the game, and being concerned what others outside of our community are thinking is one of the most sensible things one that is concerned about the game in general could be worried about. 

Again, despite the gripes, which come from fans in particular, the Gamma and/or Tails/Eggman centric game play from the Adventure titles is the best option to go with if you want to draw in non-fans in particular because they won't give a d@$n about what does or doesn't fit "Sonic" himself so long as they get their fix on the genre they like/love most with a style/flavor that's particularly unique, which is essentially what these game play styles did.

Pop out a game featuring Sonic doing his usual Sonic thing and a character doing exactly what Gamma and/or Eggman and Tails did and there you go. Hit the market quite literally the majority of gamers are into nowadays. Fast paced, action packed shooters combined with the traditional Sonic experience.

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42 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Hit the market quite literally the majority of gamers are into nowadays. Fast paced, action packed shooters combined with the traditional Sonic experience.

Not that I'm against the idea of integrating shooting stuff into Sonic's gameplay, assuming it applies to characters that can use projectile attacks like Shadow, Espio, Omega and the like while designed to tie into the platforming element of things, but isn't trying to jump onto the bandwagon of whatever happens to be popular at the time and doing it badly/not properly integrating it into Sonic's gameplay and just basically slapping it on with no thought or care EXACTLY part of the reason why some of the past games were so poorly received (Shooters with Shadow the Hedgehog 'the game', Final Fantasy with Sonic 06, God of War with the Werehog in Sonic Unleashed and so forth)?

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