Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[CleverSonicUsername]

4 hours ago, Kintor said:

Exactly, some people just hate Sonic and nothing will change their minds.

Mania is getting nothing but positive reception in the media. Turns out the trick is to put out a game that is appealing and doesn't look like a discordant nightmare.
 

Sonic Team has earned their bad publicity by consistently releasing subpar games, they wouldn't be the point of near nonstop ridicule if not for the fact that they just cannot get it together any longer than one game every so many years.

[Kintor]

2 hours ago, Tenko said:

But it's the people outside the fan base, the ones he's worried about, that will make or break the sales. In the bigger picture the Sonic fan base is a miniscule portion of the sales of any of the games, same goes for any franchise really. It's the general public that any game has to win over, that same general public who are the biggest portion of the overall sales of any product.

If the general public has a negative view on the product, or it releases alongside games that draw more attention, or early reviews are terrible, it can kill the game on arrival. There are many games good and bad that have fallen to these and other issues including when people aren't entirely won over before launch and go "hmm it looks good but I'll buy it when it's cheaper" or "I'll get it when it's second hand".

I should think that the experience of this part decade should show that such concerns about a negative reputation from non-Sonic fans is entirely unfounded. The Sonic fanbase is large enough and vocal enough to sustain the continued production of more Sonic games despite the slander of media outlets like IGN and the occasional well placed troll.

Even before the reveal of the character trailer Sonic Forces was going to be a success, it uses the popular gameplay of Sonic Generations and it comes at a time after a long absence of new AAA Sonic games, that Sonic Forces meets the built-up demand for a new 3D Sonic game. Moreover, the character creator itself has been well received; it taps into that enthusiasm of many people who want to create their own Sonic OCs. Now Sonic Forces isn't just going to be a success, if the character creator goes viral at launch then Sonic Forces will be one of the best-selling Sonic games ever made.

Edit:

5 minutes ago, CleverSonicUsername said:

Mania is getting nothing but positive reception in the media. Turns out the trick is to put out a game that is appealing and doesn't look like a discordant nightmare.

If you think Sonic Forces looks like a nightmare then you must be the most carefree person who has ever liked. Get some perspective and enjoy the opportunities that the character creator will bring, as a way to greatly expand the size of the Sonic fanbase and further restore the reputation of the Sonic franchise as a whole.

 

[CleverSonicUsername]

3 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Edit:

If you think Sonic Forces looks like a nightmare then you must be the most carefree person who has ever liked. Get some perspective and enjoy the opportunities that the character creator will bring, as a way to greatly expand the size of the Sonic fanbase and further restore the reputation of the Sonic franchise as a whole.

I know you're like super defensive about Forces, but you gotta accept the fact that a "make your own sonic OC" generator is going to be honed in on universally as a point of mockery. Pretty much every comment thread I've seen for it on gaming sites is a menagerie of embarrassing Sonic OC's lifted from Deviant Art.

 

[Kintor]

7 minutes ago, CleverSonicUsername said:

I know you're like super defensive about Forces, but you gotta accept the fact that a "make your own sonic OC" generator is going to be honed in on universally as a point of mockery. Pretty much every comment thread I've seen for it on gaming sites is a menagerie of embarrassing Sonic OC's lifted from Deviant Art.

So now, are you willing to concede that Sonic Forces doesn't look like a nightmare? After I pointed out how ridiculous that claim of yours actually was.

That is unless you somehow think Sonic fan art is the stuff of nightmares. Which is exactly the sort of bizarre prejudice that has seen many people pushed away from the Sonic fanbase. You should at least take solace in the fact that this official character creator in Sonic Forces will be designed within certain safeguard in place, by virtue of its limitations. This will prevent the worst excesses while also still allow people to have fun as they mess around with the character creator.

[CleverSonicUsername]

3 minutes ago, Kintor said:

So now, are you willing to concede that Sonic Forces doesn't look like a nightmare? After I pointed out how ridiculous that claim of yours actually was.

Are you willing to point out to me where I explicitly said Forces was and wasn't just making a general admittedly hyperbolic statement about the quality of Sonic games?

Edit: Also you didn't point anything out to me, you said if I thought that it made me "carefree" which... doesn't even follow, and then wrote some thing about how you think a character creator is going to blow everyone's socks off.

 

[Kintor]

5 minutes ago, CleverSonicUsername said:

Are you willing to point out to me where I explicitly said Forces was and wasn't just making a general admittedly hyperbolic statement about the quality of Sonic games?

Well, silly me for assuming that you'd want to talk about Sonic Forces in the Sonic Forces thread. Rather then attacking any Sonic game that you don't like as being a 'discordant nightmare'. Well, if nothing else I do suppose that 'discordant' is an original adjective as far as arguments go around here. But 'nightmare' though, that's a little less interesting. If Sonic Forces (and games like it) look like nightmares to you then we should all hope to be inflicted by such visions of horror in the future.

[CleverSonicUsername]

Just now, Kintor said:

Well, silly me for assuming that you'd want to talk about Sonic Forces in the Sonic Forces thread.

I was responding to something you said which was in line with what everyone else is currently discussing on this very page.

Come on, dude.

[Kintor]

Just now, CleverSonicUsername said:

I was responding to something you said which was in line with what everyone else is currently discussing on this very page.

Come on, dude.

Alright then, going back to the one sentence of mine that you quoted. I can only assume that you deny some people simple hate Sonic and nothing will change their mind? You're going to have a hard time convincing the Sonic fanbase of that one. We've had our experiences dealing with feckless articles and videos, usually starting with phrases like 'Sonic games were never good' etc. Those people simply aren't worth the time worrying about. There are over 7 billion people alive on the planet today, with far more people neutral or favourable towards Sonic games than any of the trolls found at places like IGN. Bring the neutral parties over to the side of the Sonic fanbase, then it won't matter what a few slanderous voices have to say.

[Tenko]

18 minutes ago, Kintor said:

I should think that the experience of this part decade should show that such concerns about a negative reputation from non-Sonic fans is entirely unfounded. The Sonic fanbase is large enough and vocal enough to sustain the continued production of more Sonic games despite the slander of media outlets like IGN and the occasional well placed troll.

Erm..no? The past couple of years worth of releases has shown that it's very much the opposite.

Sonic Boom was a terribly made game with very well founded bad reviews from media outlets and the general public alike. Lost World failed to capture audiences attention and it's sales reflected that. Not at all helped by it's exclusivity to a low adoption rate console.

Its not the vocal fan base that has kept the continued production on the Sonic franchise going, that is largely due to the popularity of the character, and also not because of the reception of any of the recent games either. Generations was the last highly praised game, reflecting that in its high sales far exceeding Boom and Lost World, and that was nigh on 6 years ago now.

Currently, Forces, while it did cause a bit of a stir with its character creation announcement, doesn't really seem to have captured people's attention like Mania has. Nostalgia as its driving force or no Mania has far more people fizzing for its release than any Sonic game since Generations and, well, Forces doesn't. 

[CleverSonicUsername]

Just now, Kintor said:

Alright then, going back to the one sentence of mine that you quoted. I can only assume that you deny some people simple hate Sonic and nothing will change their mind?

No, not entirely, but Mania has proven that if you release a game with mass market appeal and  clear messaging, it can make even the most critical outlets change their tune. This was true of Generations as well, which was talked about very positively leading up to release. I'd concede that nostalgia plays a factor to some degree, but that also speaks to the fact that people outside of any community still regard the Genesis games as a high point. Due to their scattershot quality, the modern games have never really gained the same kind of traction. 

As far as IGN goes, which you seem fixated on, I'd go as far as to say that if someone gets hung up on what they said, that's on them. IGN is a dumpster fire of an outlet, and has been for a very long time. Long enough to know better that you shouldn't take anything they say has having actual value or merit.

 

 

 

[Badnik Mechanic]

So anyone going to link to these 10 year old journalists?

[Kintor]

54 minutes ago, Tenko said:

Its not the vocal fan base that has kept the continued production on the Sonic franchise going, that is largely due to the popularity of the character, and also not because of the reception of any of the recent games either. Generations was the last highly praised game, reflecting that in its high sales far exceeding Boom and Lost World, and that was nigh on 6 years ago now.

Honestly, I think that you and I simply have different definitions of what constitutes a Sonic fans. Just because a person doesn't focus primarily on old school forums like SSMB doesn't mean they are any less of a Sonic fan. Heck, some Sonic fans deliberately tried to avoid notice. Until a couple of days ago any Sonic Fan with a DeviantArt account would've been crazy to sign up here and talk about their OC, they'd be run out of town without a second thought.

Nevertheless, these Sonic fans can still be counted upon to support the Sonic franchise, avoiding all the negative slander about Sonic games and enduring the insults aimed at them personally. This is the group of people that Sonic Forces is reaching out to and so far that call to Sonic fans far and wide seems to be working.

 

44 minutes ago, CleverSonicUsername said:

As far as IGN goes, which you seem fixated on, I'd go as far as to say that if someone gets hung up on what they said, that's on them. IGN is a dumpster fire of an outlet, and has been for a very long time. Long enough to know better that you shouldn't take anything they say has having actual value or merit.

I only mention IGN because their infamous reputation is actually quite useful when it comes to undermining the gaming media as a whole. I could launch into a long-winded diatribe about the media and how they have treated Sonic games unfairly, that even the classic games aren't exempt from their slander. Alternatively however, I can just say 'IGN' and everybody understands exactly what I'm talking about. Because once people stopp listening to outlets like IGN it's just a few more steps until start ignoring the gaming media completely.

I think this is true for all well-informed gamers today. The likes of IGN have made far too many enemies amongst different gaming fanbases to maintain any pretence of neutrality or integrity any longer. I personally won't miss IGN when they are gone but until then I will continue to use their soiled name as a way to discredit all gaming media whenever they say something untrue or publish clickbait.

[Alienrun]

On 5/17/2017 at 0:54 AM, RictalRose0 said:

Well places like Tumblr have had the most positive reaction to it, and that's where most of the Nintendo crowd hangs out. Or where they are the majority. So I imagine that yes this will be appealing to nintendo people.

Explain to me where you got this extremely radical assumption PLEASE!? :/

[Tenko]

6 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Honestly, I think that you and I simply have different definitions of what constitutes a Sonic fans. Just because a person doesn't focus primarily on old school forums like SSMB doesn't mean they are any less of a Sonic fan.

Nevertheless, these Sonic fans can still be counted upon to support the Sonic franchise...

No, not every fan is on a forum, not every fan is on Deviant Art, there are a wide variety of fans within every fan base. But that doesn't change the fact that fans, overall, are a small percentage of overall sales. Regardless of fan support a product can and will still fail if the general public, the larger sales percentage, isn't attracted to and doesn't buy said product.

As I said previously there have been numerous games that while garnering praise and high review scores prior to release have flopped and not made back budget, even with ardent supporters purchasing the game. Fans alone can't save a failed product, in the Sonic franchise games like '06, Sonic Boom, Free Riders, even Lost World are proof enough of this. The general public either shunned or were indifferent to those titles and sales reflected that. 

[Red Hot Jack]

So far the reception for Custom Hero has been positive, people are excited, the video got 1 million views in 2 days (it even surpassed the first gameplay video), ironically it's only classic Sonic fans who are whining, maybe it's not too strange considering they know the franchise better than anyone else and want precise things from the games, I don't really blame them.

[Tracker_TD]

7 minutes ago, Chameleon94 said:

So far the reception for Custom Hero has been positive, people are excited, the video got 1 million views in 2 days (it even surpassed the first gameplay video), ironically it's only classic Sonic fans who are whining, maybe it's not too strange considering they know the franchise better than anyone else and want precise things from the games, I don't really blame them.

You're a funny guy.

First thing's first; not all publicity is good publicity. 1 million views means nothing if a sizeable chunk of that viewership watched it and thought "wow, this looks daft." 

It's also demonstrably not just Classic fans "whining," given our own @Nepenthe (who we've established doesn't give a rat's arse about Classic Sonic or Mania etc) has been the most outspoken against it here. Same with those bloody TrueSonicSpirit wankstains; they're essentially the antithesis of Classic fans given all they care about is the Adventure games, and they sure as hell ain't looking pleased. 

[Red Hot Jack]

3 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

First thing's first; not all publicity is good publicity. 1 million views means nothing if a sizeable chunk of that viewership watched it and thought "wow, this looks daft." 

If you want to be negative at all costs, then yes, it's not necessarily good publicity.

[Kintor]

33 minutes ago, Tenko said:

As I said previously there have been numerous games that while garnering praise and high review scores prior to release have flopped and not made back budget, even with ardent supporters purchasing the game. Fans alone can't save a failed product, in the Sonic franchise games like '06, Sonic Boom, Free Riders, even Lost World are proof enough of this. The general public either shunned or were indifferent to those titles and sales reflected that. 

Of those three only Lost World stands out as a true failure. Sonic 06 did well enough for itself post launch as a budget title, even making into the platinum range on both Sony and Microsoft's console. While Sonic Free Riders was an interesting experiment, as a Kinect launch title; it's disappearance from view had more to do with the failure of the Kinect and the decline of motion controls. Lost World however, that's what happens when a 'Sonic' game is made to target Mario fans instead of Sonic fans, no wonder nobody bought to game, Sonic fans were alienated and Mario fans were content to continue buying just Mario games. Fortunately then, Sonic Forces is doing just fine, the character creator is really getting the attention of Sonic fans and the rest of the gaming community.

 

14 minutes ago, Chameleon94 said:

So far the reception for Custom Hero has been positive, people are excited, the video got 1 million views in 2 days (it even surpassed the first gameplay video), ironically it's only classic Sonic fans who are whining, maybe it's not too strange considering they know the franchise better than anyone else and want precise things from the games, I don't really blame them.

Yeah, the Custom Hero trailer is really getting a lot of views. Plus, those views listed on the YouTube don’t even count embedded videos or other places which have re-hosted the video. The real number of people who've seen the trailer could easily be in the 3-5 million range if not more. To say nothing of the people who've found out about the character creator via news article or social media feeds.

[Tracker_TD]

Just now, Kintor said:

Of those three only Lost World stands out as a true failure. Sonic 06 did well enough for itself post launch as a budget title, even making into the platinum range on both Sony and Microsoft's console. While Sonic Free Riders was an interesting experiment, as a Kinect launch title; it's disappearance from view had more to do with the failure of the Kinect and the decline of motion controls. Lost World however, that's what happens when a 'Sonic' game is made to target Mario fans instead of Sonic fans, no wonder nobody bought to game, Sonic fans were alienated and Mario fans were content to continue buying just Mario games. Fortunately then, Sonic Forces is doing just fine, the character creator is really getting the attention of Sonic fans and the rest of the gaming community.

You seem to have conveniently forgotten a lesson I mentioned earlier in this very same thread;

Let me tell you about a little failure called the Wii U. If you're blaming Free Riders on Kinect, then blaming Lost World's failure on the Wii U sales is fair game; not the fact it's a bit Mario-looking. 

[Kintor]

Just now, Tracker_TD said:

You seem to have conveniently forgotten a lesson I mentioned earlier in this very same thread;

Let me tell you about a little failure called the Wii U. If you're blaming Free Riders on Kinect, then blaming Lost World's failure on the Wii U sales is fair game; not the fact it's a bit Mario-looking. 

If you want I can blame the failure of Lost World on both the decision to target Mario fans and the general unpopularity of the Wii U as console. Besides, I think that Sonic Free Riders did alright as a Kinect launch title, a low risk move by Sega to see if there was still interest in motion control games. The rapid decline of the Kinect post launch is why Sega decided against releasing more games for the platform. In this respect, Sonic Free Riders served its purpose.

Regardless, the situation of the Wii U and Kinect has little relevance to Sonic Forces. Seeing as how Sonic Forces is going to be available on PC, PS4 and Xbox One - all popular platforms with a healthy userbase. Which will be more than enough to ensure that Sonic Forces finds an audience. Most gamers own some combination of gaming PC, PS4 and/or Xbox One.

[CleverSonicUsername]

41 minutes ago, Kintor said:

 

Yeah, the Custom Hero trailer is really getting a lot of views. Plus, those views listed on the YouTube don’t even count embedded videos or other places which have re-hosted the video. The real number of people who've seen the trailer could easily be in the 3-5 million range if not more. To say nothing of the people who've found out about the character creator via news article or social media feeds.

I'm pretty sure it does unless the video is set to autoplay, then Youtube doesn't count it. Views are also only counted if you watch for about half a minute, and it ceases counting the same person viewing a video multiple times after something like 5 or so views. I doubt that specific video is hitting 5 million views due to normal discrepancies with how Youtube tallies hits. A better metric for how far that video has spread is counting reuploads into the total views. I think the Gamestop one is around 100k, for example.

Edit: That's not to discredit that the video has in fact gotten a lot of views, because that's true.

[Kintor]

5 minutes ago, CleverSonicUsername said:

I'm pretty sure it does unless the video is set to autoplay, then Youtube doesn't count it. Views are also only counted if you watch for about half a minute, and it ceases counting the same person viewing a video multiple times after something like 5 or so views. I doubt that specific video is hitting 5 million views due to normal discrepancies with how Youtube tallies hits. A better metric for how far that video has spread is counting reuploads into the total views. I think the Gamestop one is around 100k, for example.

Edit: That's not to discredit that the video has in fact gotten a lot of views, but that's true.

This is more or less what I was trying to getting at. There is a trend recently of YouTube videos getting less videos then you'd expect because everything is shared and re-hosted so many times. Even Facebook has a fairly competent video hosting service that often gets a couple of million views by itself when a video goes viral. So, to have the original Custom Hero video get over 1 million views is still a big deal. Of course, the full number of people who have seen a copy of that video somewhere on the net can easily the original video's view total by an order of magnitude.

[CleverSonicUsername]

Just now, Kintor said:

This is more or less what I was trying to getting at. There is a trend recently of YouTube videos getting less videos then you'd expect because everything is shared and re-hosted so many times. Even Facebook has a fairly competent video hosting service that often gets a couple of million views by itself when a video goes viral. So, to have the original Custom Hero video get over 1 million views is still a big deal. Of course, the full number of people who have seen a copy of that video somewhere on the net can easily the original video's view total by an order of magnitude.

Fair enough. Off reuploads on youtube specifically I don't think it'd have much more than another 200k views from a cursory glance (mind you, just counting straight reups and not reactions, hot takes, etc.) Couldn't tell you the metrics for Facebook or like reuploads using native players on sites like IGN, though.

[Nepenthe]

8 hours ago, Kintor said:

I've said before but you worry far too much about what other people outside the Sonic fanbase think.

And you don't care enough. You've basically admitted you're ready to befit this franchise with any dumb idea that appeals to you outside the scope of the franchise, with the justification being so long as people talk about it, it's fine, because any publicity is good publicity.

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Those who have decided to mock the Sonic fanbase because our interests will never stop their attacks, no matter how much the Sonic fanbase tries to change itself to become more 'socially acceptable' in the eyes of a few trolls.

So every gameplay idea really is on the table because "the haters will never stop?" Bring on Shadow of Duty I guess.

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Moreover, trying to push away segments of the Sonic fanbase, like those who created OCs, only diminishes the Sonic fanbase as a whole.

What about people who don't like OCs, or who don't think the franchise needs to become one about self-insertion? Guess they don't count lol.

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Conversely, the character creator in Sonic Forces is a great opportunity to restore a sense of pride to the Sonic fanbase

I'm not proud of this game.

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to have fun with the new OCs that Sonic Forces will make possible.

Sonic Forces isn't making new OCs possible. On top of that, I don't need a corporate entity to justify my creativity, thanks.

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The only ones will be a laughing stock then are those who cling to the same tired insults despite the broad appeal and popularity of the character creator across social media.

Or maybe they just think it's a dumb idea.

Still don't know why at this point you just don't admit that this is something you wanted in the games regardless of the potential ramifications. I already said that's fine.

[Tenko]

1 hour ago, Kintor said:

Of those three only Lost World stands out as a true failure....

So the fact that even Sega themselves stated that Sonic Boom was the "worst selling Sonic game ever" isn't a true failure? Sonic '06 being labeled as one of, if not the critically worst title in the series, the one the media and the majority of fans as well as the general public call the lowest point in the franchise is not a true failure? 

Both of which far undersold even lower budget handheld titles like Sonic Advance and Sonic Rush. It seems your definition of failure must be very different than the rest of the general publics. Either that or you are blindly trying to justify certain games in the franchise that you happen to like...