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Badnik Mechanic

Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

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Honestly I feel that a lot of the positivity centered around the character creator has a lot to do with Sonic's recent meme status. I'm betting a lot of the people who are okay with it aren't really fans per se, just people who vaguely follow Sonic, they see the Official Sonic twitter and places like DeviantArt poking fun and embracing this sort of thing and think "lol let's see what this new sanic game has in store oh a goofy looking character creator lel oc the original character"

To be honest pretty much every real fan making a video on the subject I've seen either outright dismisses it, or isn't excited about it but remains hopeful. Like SomeCallMeJohnny, Jimquisition, StephenKnux or even like ArtFenix. And obviously the overwhelmingly negative response around here. I have not seen a single hardcore fan that is drooling over this new concept. I can't scour the entire internet to claim no Sonic fan likes this, I'm just a guy. But man, from what I've seen/read, the reactions and attention this game is grabbing is not good and it certainly doesn't leave me hopeful for the future.

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5 hours ago, Tracker_TD said:

You're a funny guy.

First thing's first; not all publicity is good publicity. 1 million views means nothing if a sizeable chunk of that viewership watched it and thought "wow, this looks daft." 

It's also demonstrably not just Classic fans "whining," given our own @Nepenthe (who we've established doesn't give a rat's arse about Classic Sonic or Mania etc) has been the most outspoken against it here. Same with those bloody TrueSonicSpirit wankstains; they're essentially the antithesis of Classic fans given all they care about is the Adventure games, and they sure as hell ain't looking pleased. 

Actually they seem rather positive about the Character Creator but mentioned it's an idea 15 years too late or something.

Though granted they seem to be panning most other ideas in the game and/or those chosen to produce it/write it.

In these cases, considering vast groups aside them are complaining about the same things, they can't be faulted this time around.

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So many people seem quick to judge this game (and admittedly what we've seen hasn't exactly inspired confidence) but I feel like we haven't even seen 10% of what this game has to offer overall. 

I really wish they had made a trailer with short snippets of other levels to give us an idea of what's in store. 

The burning cityscape with Sonic fighting the giant robot was good for the initial reveal trailer but since then we've gotten a few more trailers that show either that burning city again or green hill. 

Im not saying they should reveal a ton more levels but even just show clips of other worlds and things like how the Mario Odyssey trailer did. It showed a wide variety of locales without really revealing anything so it's possible to do that with Sonic Forces. 

Im just finding it very hard to judge the game based on basically 2 levels (and fairly bland ones at that) 

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1 minute ago, Sonicfan287 said:

So many people seem quick to judge this game (and admittedly what we've seen hasn't exactly inspired confidence) but I feel like we haven't even seen 10% of what this game has to offer overall. 

I really wish they had made a trailer with short snippets of other levels to give us an idea of what's in store. 

The burning cityscape with Sonic fighting the giant robot was good for the initial reveal trailer but since then we've gotten a few more trailers that show either that burning city again or green hill. 

Im not saying they should reveal a ton more levels but even just show clips of other worlds and things like how the Mario Odyssey trailer did. It showed a wide variety of locales without really revealing anything so it's possible to do that with Sonic Forces. 

Im just finding it very hard to judge the game based on basically 2 levels (and fairly bland ones at that) 

Well...

As long as Sonic isn't laughing and joking in every other scene...

I guess I'll be MILDLY happy plot wise.

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10 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Mario Odyssey could've shown two levels and no story as well and I still would've been as hyped for it as I am now, because impressions for the artistic and technical competency and potential fun of a game are primarily the result of the mechanics on display and not the levels anyway, of which Mario (and for better comparison Mania, which debuted with only a couple of levels as well) is acing in spades over Forces. This doesn't preclude feelings from changing, even when we eventually play these games. It's theoretically possible Odyssey will be awful and Forces will be a Game of the Year contender, at least personally. But as it stands, one game appears to have its shit in order. 

Odyssey is a much more straightforward title with a clear point in where it's going and what it's doing. It's a very singular focus kind of game where you know what you're playing from start to finish and what the point of it is really. You can tell who it's aiming for and who it wants to welcome without being divisive over what it's attempting.

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6 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Odyssey is a much more straightforward title with a clear point in where it's going and what it's doing. It's a very singular focus kind of game where you know what you're playing from start to finish and what the point of it is really. You can tell who it's aiming for and who it wants to welcome without being divisive over what it's attempting.

I'm intersted: How we would talk about Odyssey if we only saw city level and this cap thingy?

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Just now, Kfarc said:

I'm intersted how we would talk about Odyssey if we only saw city level and this cap thingy.

"Mario Adventure 3 confirmed" is the primary thing that comes to mind, but that has already been done to death.

Nonetheless it would still be relatively hyped up, as you'd have folks concerned over the NPC's perhaps as they already were initially, but as a whole people would be foaming at the mouth I'd wager.

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Odyssey has shown 4 levels to Sonic Forces's 2. It's not that big of a difference. It would be just as clear how much better Odyssey looks if Mario had shown 2 and Sonic had shown 4.

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9 minutes ago, Josh said:

Odyssey has shown 4 levels to Sonic Forces's 2. It's not that big of a difference. It would be just as clear how much better Odyssey looks if Mario had shown 2 and Sonic had shown 4.

Also, one of the stages from Sonic Forces is one we've already seen 1000 times.

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5 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Can we take a moment to appreciate what a brilliant video this is?

This is what's wrong with Sonic games, and Sonikko has only just scratched the surface here in this short analysis. Sonic games barely play like Sonic games these days - they just look like they do. I don't know how Sonic Team can look at Forces and Mania side by side and say "yeah, Forces is good". It's not. 

Also, Sonikko, your pronunciation is fine. Dont worry.

Thanks, I'll be honest, this comment put a smile on my face. I've been wanting to do some analysis videos for a long time, since I myself enjoy watching them a lot. I think I'll make more in the near future.

About Mario Odissey, I think I said this some pages back. When your catalogue is composed of mostly great to awesome games you don't need to show too much to build confidence and hype on your next product. 
People just know that the next Mario game is going to be great, Nintendo doesn't need to prove anything.

Sega on the other hand...

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9 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

That analysis video makes me want to pop in the Adventure games and see how they physically act and feel right now in comparison to Generations. I haven't played them in years.

Quite better I must say. There's fewer ramps but they definitely work better and the character reacts to slopes in a meaningful way. If you haven't done it already, try the Windy Valley beta reconstruction, it's the best that Sonic Adventure has ever been imho.  Rolling is broken, though, and I think that's one of the reasons they went with another approach for the other levels. (This is not to say that Adventure is ultimately more fun than Generations, since the former is pretty old and clunky by today's standards, but yeah).

I have a feeling that Sonic Team really tried adapting classic Sonic in 3D with Adventure, failed because the physic system was too complicated for the Dreamcast, and then realized they could do without, so they just did.

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18 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

That analysis video makes me want to pop in the Adventure games and see how they physically act and feel right now in comparison to Generations. I haven't played them in years.

You'll notice that the Adventure games have a fair bit of scripting when it comes to loops and a few other areas (paths of wind in Windy Valley, for example), as in you're forced around then and will most likely fall to your death if you try to avoid that scripting. This is down to the the technical limitations of the Dreamcast mostly, and the fact that it was the first real foray in to 3D Sonic. Slopes work very well though. A great place to test them is the beginning of the second part of Emerald Coast, where you can run along the wall only if you have enough speed. Ramps aren't scripted, although they are often preceded by boosters.

Another part of Emerald Coast where you can test the ramps and slopes is towards the end of the second part. You come across a huge ramp that you're expect to hit boosters before being able to run up. But if you manage to go faster with a spindash, Sonic goes way high into the air and you'll be able to take a shortcut bu landing on the next island over. As Sonikko shows in his video, you can't do this in the current games. You'll either go too slowly and fail the ramp, or the scripted event kicks in regardless of your speed and you reach a pre-set height and distance with no control. 

8 minutes ago, Jango said:

I believe this was brought, but just in case you've missed during the storm, here's a reminder that the story will probably be ass again:

Please, Jango. One bombshell at a time. 

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And people still had hope! I'm the most optimistic guy when it comes to games, but f*ck me Sonic Forces... It's like Sonic Team took note of everything we didn't wanted/asked them not do it and made a game out of it. This is an amazing feat. The guys at Japan are really bold.

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IIRC in the Adventures the physics still work well enough. The levels are just kind of designed to string you along anyway because Sonic team doesn't have a lot of faith in the engine. You can still take advantage of them to make insane jumps and shit especially in SA1 though.

The modern games are a lot more rigid than the Adventure games even IMO. 

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1 minute ago, Josh said:

IIRC in the Adventures the physics still work well enough. The levels are just kind of designed to string you along anyway because Sonic team doesn't have a lot of games. You can still take advantage of them to make insane jumps and shit especially in SA1 though.

The modern games are a lot more rigid than the Adventure games even IMO. 

I'd struggle to call that an opinion - it's pretty much fact. You have more control over Sonic in the Adventure games that you do in the current games.

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1 hour ago, Josh said:

Odyssey has shown 4 levels to Sonic Forces's 2. It's not that big of a difference. It would be just as clear how much better Odyssey looks if Mario had shown 2 and Sonic had shown 4.

Is that all? When I say showing levels I don't mean showing particulars the way Sonic Mania has shown all of Green Hill Act 1. I just mean the Mario Odyssey trailer gives you a taste of the different locales you'll visit even if only for a few seconds. I find that kind of marketing more appealing than zeroing in on one or two levels and showing a big chunk of them 

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14 minutes ago, JezMM said:

I don't understand this idea that the character creator will breathe a whole new life into OCs and creativity.  It's cool and fun, but when I make my character I'll be designing my Sonic Forces OC, not a general Sonic OC.  Their appearance in the game will always be limited compared to what one can do with their imagination outside of the game.  A very very small percentage of people will be able to transfer existing OC concepts from their mind into this game.

So whenever people are like "finally an appreciation for OC creation!" it's like saying Mario Maker was an appreciation for Mario fan games.  Like... not really, the homemade variant will always be massively more versatile than what's in the game.  All good fun but not something the OC-loving community MASSIVELY benefits from.

Indeed. Unless the system has a Spore-esque level of customization (would certainly help to explain the time they took making this), then you're only going to end up with general approximations of your ideas unless your character is already really simple.

Like, I'm 99.9% sure I cannot make this guy. Or even this guy. Not that it would particularly matter as it's also not looking as if they're going to give the different species appropriate or really wild power sets, unless of course that's going to be the result of a bunch of gadgetry and- coincidentally enough- Colors-esque level design that's outfitted with a bunch of different level segments to take advantage of the different Wisp powers. My dog was the Yellow Drill for years before Sonic Team so mercilessly stole the idea, but considering all we've seen so far as a more swingy and methodical offshoot of Boost gameplay, I'm not holding my breath.

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3 minutes ago, JezMM said:

I don't understand this idea that the character creator will breathe a whole new life into OCs and creativity.  It's cool and fun, but when I make my character I'll be designing my Sonic Forces OC, not a general Sonic OC.  Their appearance in the game will always be limited compared to what one can do with their imagination outside of the game.  A very very small percentage of people will be able to transfer existing OC concepts from their mind into this game.

So whenever people are like "finally an appreciation for OC creation!" it's like saying Mario Maker was an appreciation for Mario fan games.  Like... not really, the homemade variant will always be massively more versatile than what's in the game.  All good fun but not something the OC-loving community MASSIVELY benefits from.

This was basically my reaction, to be honest, Earlier in the thread, Nepenthe posted:

2 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

Again, I don't think OC creators are suddenly entitled to Sonic Team's blessing and acknowledgement just because they make OCs. 

I'm not 100% sure there was absolutely no way some form of official sanctioning of OCs could've been done. Like, if SEGA was producing a Sonic MMO, then there'd be a decently good reason for a character creator similar to what's seen here. The problem is the context. An MMO would mainly be side missions with the main cast only tangentially related in order to provide focus and agency to the players, but Forces is supposed to be another main entry to the franchise. An avatar character breaks the cast dynamic the games had from both a story and gameplay perspective, and to top it all off, isn't even that versatile a system, from what we've seen. Who knows, maybe the PC version will have ravenous modders making the customization options more numerous and creative, but that doesn't even count as official SEGA sanction anymore, leading recursively back to, "you might as well just do it yourself."

The people I'm seeing getting excited for this are either OC fanatics in general who'll take anything if it means they get to self-insert their character into a canon Sonic story, or ironic memesters who associate the Sonic brand with its memes more than its history, finding it hilariously fun that you'll technically be able to make Coldsteel or Sonichu canon right next to Sonic in gameplay. I really don't get who this is benefiting either.

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