Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Shadowlax]

41 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Where were the gatekeeping claims when kids wanted to arm Shadow with a gun?

I don't think I ever heard kids wanting do that, I was a kid , I voted in that poll, I didn't want that. Or at least a ratchet and clank type deal, I blame sega for not being able to interpret criticism or requests in a fashion sane people do. 

I just wanted a video game where I could play as my favorite sonic character. Sega can't ever just do a thing, its always some extra shit. And ... for a while now, its often bad. 

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Sonikko said:

Even if you take automation and scripts out of the equation, you're still left with flat level design, if GHZ is anything to go by. There's no point in removing the boostpads if the level was built with scripted sections in mind.

Mods would naturally alter stages to suit the fixed physics and/or game play itself.

Assuming they'd want to put that much work into Forces after, again, everything they've already done with Generations.

I'd feel too much of a "been there, done this already" sensation if I was a mod since the game really is Generations with different stages and worse game play.

Plus, it's fixing the mess of "professionals" for free and... I doubt I'd be willing to do that time and again.

[Sonikko]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

Mods would naturally alter stages to suit the fixed physics and/or game play itself.

Assuming they'd want to put that much work into Forces after, again, everything they've already done with Generations.

I'd feel too much of a "been there, done this already" sensation if I was a mod since the game really is Generations with different stages and worse game play.

Plus, it's fixing the mess of "professionals" for free and... I doubt I'd be willing to do that time and again.

I get what you mean, but it would be basically rebuilding the game from scratch if you're going to touch up level structure too.

Generations hasn't seen anything like that as far as the vanilla stages go, there's no automation mods but the rest of the level design is the same. It doesn't even work that good since the levels were built around scripted triggers, so sometimes the physics break. I imagine Forces would be the same. 

Besides, slope physics and all those other things have direct impact on the level design, if the game is not built around that there's no point in having them either. Imagine having slope physics in Lost World, it wouldn't be a better game just because they're there. It would have to be built around those.

[Chris Knopps]

5 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

I get what you mean, but it would be basically rebuilding the game from scratch if you're going to touch up level structure too.

Generations hasn't seen anything like that as far as the vanilla stages go, there's no automation mods but the rest of the level design is the same. It doesn't even work that good since the levels were built around scripted triggers, so sometimes the physics break. I imagine Forces would be the same. 

Besides, slope physics and all those other things have direct impact on the level design, if the game is not built around that there's no point in having them either. Imagine having slope physics in Lost World, it wouldn't be a better game just because they're there. It would have to be built around those.

...That entire statement makes me want to reply "But this is SONIC we're talking about"

Problem is... What the HELL is a Sonic nowadays?

About like that I suppose...

Why make sense when it can just be fun and/or funny right?

[LongcrierCat]

4 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

Even if you take automation and scripts out of the equation, you're still left with flat level design, if GHZ is anything to go by. There's no point in removing the boostpads if the level was built with scripted sections in mind.

I think it is, classic Sonic taking 1/3rd of the game and being worse than Generations (so far), Modern Sonic playing like Colours and the 3rd character being the missions from Generations and Colours just with a furry OC. It's missing the Werehog and you have the complete package imho.

It's certainly a quick fix to a problem in games and their gameplay created by Sega and its corporate structure. That's for sure .

Actually. This would be a good time to talk about why we even still have a dedicated Sonic Team that makes only Sonic games now, huh? Because you take a look at Nintendo and they have tons of in house devs but.... not one team is relegated strictly to just Mario games. That's peculiar, huh? It's almost like having one team of pretty consistent employees cranking out the same games over and over isn't working for Sega anymore. 

A new perspective is needed and that might even necessitate that Sega rename and restructure their in house devs and do away with the idea of a "Sonic Team". Let other people have a go with Sonic if they feel like it for a new kind of game if the franchise is getting stale. 

Like I'm not going to argue that the gameplay is fine. It's boring. It's absolutely on rails and I don't like it either. But a lot of games that even do well critically and sales wise even do well. This isn't a Sega only problem, this is an industry wide problem I feel. It's just that Sega and Sonic Team specifically kind of have it the worst. 

[Nepenthe]

15 minutes ago, LongcrierCat said:

Making your own character to play as = giving an already established character a gun and making him dark ?

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this the ultimate hyperbole? Like okay. It's a gimmick, but it's not an offensive one this time. Really. What's wrong here? One was aimed at trying to be cool with teenagers again while this one is leaning younger and is overall more fun for everyone. Really. As far as gimmicks have gone in this franchise, this is pretty bearable even if interestingly different, if predictable, for Sega.

You literally asked what kind of gatekeeping asshole do you have to be for making fun of the creative endeavors of kids. So I'm merely wondering to what extent is the line drawn in a franchise that has a weird habit of entertaining almost anything and everything that isn't straight up pornographic or excessively gory. Everyone who has tried to make this into an ethical argument by appealing to innocent children has not been able to establish objective or at least inarguable lines of which ideas are okay to criticize and even make fun of and which others are sacrosanct on the ground that a kid thought it up or might be into it. Hence why I asked the question about Shadow at all. It's not hyperbolic, because the perceived quality between the games isn't the point. The point is, for the sake of logical consistency, you can't suddenly start appealing to Little Johnny's free spirit with the CaC and then go "Now hold on a second" when Little Johnny also thinks ShtH is a cool game on a conceptual level. Either everything is in, or everything is out.

12 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I don't think I ever heard kids wanting do that, I was a kid , I voted in that poll, I didn't want that. Or at least a ratchet and clank type deal, I blame sega for not being able to interpret criticism or requests in a fashion sane people do. 

I just wanted a video game where I could play as my favorite sonic character. Sega can't ever just do a thing, its always some extra shit. And ... for a while now, its often bad. 

If you were a kid when you voted in that poll, you effectively endorsed what would eventually be a bad game. It's not your fault it turned out bad, but regardless, you thought a game where Shadow had guns would be cool when you were a kid. And that's actually fine. The point is, it's fine to disagree with ShtH regardless of what you as a kid thought of it at the time or what any other kid thinks about it now. But here in Forces, the overwhelming sentiment from people who are defending it is "someone think of the children!" And I'm like, "Why?" If we really wanted to extend this logical thread into outright absurdity, that would mean the whole franchise is off limits because the whole damn franchise is for kids as per Sega's own word, and you'll find some pack of crotch-dumplings out there who will eat up even the most awful of Sonic games because of the sheer joy these games give them. Guess we can't criticize Sonic games then. Might insult the children.

[Sonikko]

Just now, LongcrierCat said:

It's certainly a quick fix to a problem in games and their gameplay created by Sega and its corporate structure. That's for sure .

Actually. This would be a good time to talk about why we even still have a dedicated Sonic Team that makes only Sonic games now, huh? Because you take a look at Nintendo and they have tons of in house devs but.... not one team is relegated strictly to just Mario games. That's peculiar, huh? It's almost like having one team of pretty consistent employees cranking out the same games over and over isn't working for Sega anymore. 

A new perspective is needed and that might even necessitate that Sega rename and restructure their in house devs and do away with the idea of a "Sonic Team". Let other people have a go with Sonic if they feel like it for a new kind of game if the franchise is getting stale. 

Like I'm not going to argue that the gameplay is fine. It's boring. It's absolutely on rails and I don't like it either. But a lot of games that even do well critically and sales wise even do well. This isn't a Sega only problem, this is an industry wide problem I feel. It's just that Sega and Sonic Team specifically kind of have it the worst. 

That's true, there's many AAA titles that go for the "cinematic" route.

Uncharted and Tomb Raider for example, I have experience with the latter title and there's many similarities with the situation Sonic's in right now.

The original games were platformers in which you had to get to know the character and the way she moved, get accostumed to it and then traverse the levels making use of every move you've learned. Careful jumping and timing were key.

Nowadays Lara has scripted jumps, long hallways with explosions going on around her and small arenas with shooting. Her situation's a lot like Sonic's.

[Badnik Mechanic]

1 hour ago, LongcrierCat said:

Ooh, sarcasm. That's pleasant. But yeah here.  

The fuck is your probelm? You been victimised today or something?

I wasn't being sarcastic, I asked several pages ago when people were moaning about journalists and this game and nobody bothered to provide any examples to backup what they said.

Even your very selective image there which you masked the search terms of in which we cannot actually read the content of said articles, only one link where there's a clear mocking of it in the title.

Every other mention of it is exactly the same as the vast majority of fans reaction and general gamers.

So what's the problem?

 

Edit: lol oh this is great.

 

One of your examples of journalists not liking this idea... the writer of the article actually praises and likes the idea.  

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.engadget.com/amp/2017/05/16/sonic-forces-make-your-own-hero/

I've not bothered to check the rest but something tells me you didn't either? 

[Scar]

19 minutes ago, LongcrierCat said:

Making your own character to play as = giving an already established character a gun and making him dark ?

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this the ultimate hyperbole? Like okay. It's a gimmick, but it's not an offensive one this time. Really. What's wrong here? One was aimed at trying to be cool with teenagers again while this one is leaning younger and is overall more fun for everyone. Really. As far as gimmicks have gone in this franchise, this is pretty bearable even if interestingly different, if predictable, for Sega. 

The issue has been addressed a number of times, but I'll try to explain again.

There are a number of key problems. Firstly, this game has made no indication that its an RPG, a genre where customisable characters would shine. Its a platformer. A mascot platformer too at that. The principle appeal of a mascot platformer are its characters. Your OC is going to be an empty shell. They can't give that OC a personality because its supposed to be player made, but as its not an RPG, you can't actually role play. Unless there are going to be massive hub worlds and NPCs and dialogue trees and stuff its all rather pointless because you can't really make that character yours aside from the way it looks. Add to that the OC isn't the solo protagonist. We have not one, but two fucking Sonic's along for the ride who (if Sonic Team have any sense) are the real main characters.

Therein lies another problem. Focus and identity. This game for no good reason has two Sonic's. Aside from cashing in on Gens and classic Sonic nostalgia (this is pretty funny to think about...nostalgia for a 7/10 game released 6 years ago) there is no good reason to have Classic Sonic in the game in addition to Modern Sonic and in addition to Original the Character. 3 different gameplay styles in a single game. Nope. No focus.

If any of these three parts existed in their own fucking game, nobody would have given a fuck. Modern Sonic game (with playable extended cast?), cool. Classic Sonic game (i.e Mania), cool. Spin-off game with customisable hero with a story focused on that OC's journey, perhaps in an action/RPG type game, cool. The latter might flop, but its a spin-off. Putting all three in one huge mess of a game is fucking stupid, because if any one of the three is not good, it sours the whole fucking experience.

...

Jesus, how did I not realise this...

Somehow Sonic Team have managed to come full fucking circle. Instead of Sonic and Friends in multiple shitty gameplay modes, we now have Sonic, Sonic and Original the Character in multiple shitty gameplay modes. Setting aside the gameplay style difference, removal of extraneous characters has only been fucking superficial. Sticking Sonic's face or indeed a blank canvas on shitty gameplay styles doesn't make it better than having Tails, Knux, Amy, Shadow or whoever else's face on it.

[Chris Knopps]

5 minutes ago, LongcrierCat said:

It's certainly a quick fix to a problem in games and their gameplay created by Sega and its corporate structure. That's for sure .

Actually. This would be a good time to talk about why we even still have a dedicated Sonic Team that makes only Sonic games now, huh? Because you take a look at Nintendo and they have tons of in house devs but.... not one team is relegated strictly to just Mario games. That's peculiar, huh? It's almost like having one team of pretty consistent employees cranking out the same games over and over isn't working for Sega anymore. 

A new perspective is needed and that might even necessitate that Sega rename and restructure their in house devs and do away with the idea of a "Sonic Team". Let other people have a go with Sonic if they feel like it for a new kind of game if the franchise is getting stale. 

Like I'm not going to argue that the gameplay is fine. It's boring. It's absolutely on rails and I don't like it either. But a lot of games that even do well critically and sales wise even do well. This isn't a Sega only problem, this is an industry wide problem I feel. It's just that Sega and Sonic Team specifically kind of have it the worst. 

Whitehead Team says "Hi".

[Shadowlax]

 

Just now, Nepenthe said:

 But here in Forces, the overwhelming sentiment from people who are defending it are "someone think of the children!" And I'm like, "Why?" If we really wanted to extend this logical thread into outright absurdity, that would mean the whole franchise is off limits because the whole damn franchise is for kids as per Sega's own word, and you'll find some pack of crotch-dumplings out there who will eat up even the most awful of Sonic games because of the sheer joy these games give them. Guess we can't criticize Sonic games then. Might insult the children.

I mean, I feel you. I get this every time I talk about sonic boom the show has little to no substance and isn't funny enough to make up for it.

There's a longer rant about " its for kids" being a deflector of criticism I hate, and I was a kid and I know what I would have hated as a kid, and just because its intended for an audience doesn't make I can't say its bad. How sonic boom as a television show being so nothing has inadvertently actually puts it in a weird vacuum where while it could be criticized... it isn't. But I think you get it. 

In short, I feel you. 

 

1 minute ago, Scar said:

...

Jesus, how did I not realise this...

Somehow Sonic Team have managed to come full fucking circle. Instead of Sonic and Friends and multiple shitty gameplay modes, we now have Sonic, Sonic and Original the Character and multiple shitty gameplay modes. Setting aside the gameplay style difference, removal of extraneous characters has only been fucking superficial. Sticking Sonic's face or indeed a blank canvas on shitty gameplay styles doesn't make it better than having Tails, Knux, Amy, Shadow or whoever else's face on it.

...

...

...

You know every sonic person on youtube who talks about sonic is going to steal this. Yeah, this is actually full circle if its bad. 

[Detective Kaito]

Honestly, the 3 different gameplay styles aren't as different as the ones in SA1, SA2, or even Sonic 06. They have differences but I can't see fans hating a specific gameplay style like Big's Fishing or Treasure Hunting.

[Chris Knopps]

3 minutes ago, Detective Kaito said:

Honestly, the 3 different gameplay styles aren't as different as the ones in SA1, SA2, or even Sonic 06. They have differences but I can't see fans hating a specific gameplay style like Big's Fishing or Treasure Hunting.

I'd still think if they kept the Sonic/Shadow and Eggman/Tails/Gamma game plays the franchise would be much more suitable to current trends/preference in the market at large today.

Forces does get SOME credit for finally tapping back into this via its "Wisponization" mechanic with the OC game play.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

Maybe allowing us to make our own OCs is the first step. How would any of yall feel if in the next console/PC Sonic game you could also make your own levels too?

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Maybe allowing us to make our own OCs is the first step. How would any of yall feel if in the next console/PC Sonic game you could also make your own levels too?

...Ehhhh...

I don't really know how I feel about that. I mean, I love Mario for doing it, but Sonic, and such a game put together by the current folks...?

If it's Whitehead and his crew behind it, sure.

[Dejimon11]

4 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Maybe allowing us to make our own OCs is the first step. How would any of yall feel if in the next console/PC Sonic game you could also make your own levels too?

I would be down of that honestly.. 

[Nepenthe]

I'd much rather they just make a Sonic Maker for like 3DS or something and leave it at that.

[LongcrierCat]

40 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

The fuck is your probelm? You been victimised today or something? *

I wasn't being sarcastic, I asked several pages ago when people were moaning about journalists and this game and nobody bothered to provide any examples to backup what they said.

Even your very selective image there which you masked the search terms of in which we cannot actually read the content of said articles, only one link where there's a clear mocking of it in the title.

One of your examples of journalists not liking this idea... the writer of the article actually praises and likes the idea.  

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.engadget.com/amp/2017/05/16/sonic-forces-make-your-own-hero/

I've not bothered to check the rest but something tells me you didn't either? 

All I did was search Sonic Forces and looked in News on Google. Why are you acting like I was hiding something here? What kind of Gamer Gate hive minded mockery of my self worth is this? 

I usually do check my sources for what it's worth, but I didn't read that, though I know of journalists being happy about the idea. To be honest, this topic moved pretty quickly over a week and I have no interest in getting into everyone's nitpicks, among actual criticism, about why this game is a failure. Yes, there's a lack of solid identity in the franchise. Yes, Classic Sonic is here for no reason other than Generations did well. But boy, this game managed to get the entire fanbase riled up when one of these points isn't even worth getting upset about. Also? 

 

41 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

If you were a kid when you voted in that poll, you effectively endorsed what would eventually be a bad game. It's not your fault it turned out bad, but regardless, you thought a game where Shadow had guns would be cool when you were a kid. And that's actually fine. The point is, it's fine to disagree with ShtH regardless of what you as a kid thought of it at the time or what any other kid thinks about it now. But here in Forces, the overwhelming sentiment from people who are defending it is "someone think of the children!" And I'm like, "Why?" If we really wanted to extend this logical thread into outright absurdity, that would mean the whole franchise is off limits because the whole damn franchise is for kids as per Sega's own word, and you'll find some pack of crotch-dumplings out there who will eat up even the most awful of Sonic games because of the sheer joy these games give them. Guess we can't criticize Sonic games then. Might insult the children.

 

1 hour ago, LongcrierCat said:

You know, I don't like to rag on "Games Journalisms" but whenever the news broke that you can make your own character in this game, they sure were snarky about how Sonic fans sure do make fan characters. 

What I'm failing to see is how this is anywhere near being a problem. You know? Steven Universe is frankly really comfortable with the idea that the fans make Gemsonas and that kids get a real kick out of making their own characters in a thing they happen to like. I mean, fire criticism for how many options there are to make your own character. Be my guest. I'll be sad when I find that it's not robust because things have to look like the style Sega has Uekawa design them in.

 

It's like you willingly ignored the part where I told you that critique was fine. I'm no mod, but shit. I expect better behaviour than this from Site Staff. 

* Really? Are you making fun of me just out of assumption that I'm on Tumblr or something? Is this the behaviour that's accepted on site these days? Everyone. No. Everyone. No. 

Never mind. Forget I said anything. See you later, Sonic Fandom. I can't stand this headache you're all giving me. 

[Nepenthe]

Just now, LongcrierCat said:

It's like you willingly ignored the part where I told you that critique was fine. I'm no mod, but shit. I expect better behaviour than this from Site Staff. 

I guess you also missed the part where I said I was deliberately taking the logic to an absurd conclusion, out of all the numerous sentences in my posts (which is further ironic because the one quote you picked out wasn't even addressed to you). You further missed the part where invoking absurdity within reason wasn't against the rules so, uh, yeah. Not sure why you're further moralizing bout what I can and can't do as a staffer.

Just now, LongcrierCat said:

* Really? Are you making fun of me just out of assumption that I'm on Tumblr or something? Is this the behaviour that's accepted on site these days? Everyone. No. Everyone. No. 

Just now, LongcrierCat said:

Never mind. Forget I said anything. See you later, Sonic Fandom. I can't stand this headache you're all giving me. 

Reasonable gif usage is not against the rules either.

[Indigo Rush]

14 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Maybe allowing us to make our own OCs is the first step. How would any of yall feel if in the next console/PC Sonic game you could also make your own levels too?

As rote and simple as Modern Sonic gameplay is, it takes a lot of time and effort to choreograph the level to hide its various foibles; putting a level creator in the hands of the average player can run the risk of exploiting that issue; and even assuming this were a level designer for a Classic Sonic type game, the sorts of level architecture you would need available is much more expansive than Mario's blocks.

A level creator for Sonic just isn't feasible.

I'd love to be proven wrong, but I don't see it as a practical ambition. Granted, neither is a character creator, but here we are.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

13 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I'd much rather they just make a Sonic Maker for like 3DS or something and leave it at that.

Being limited to a handheld would extremely limit what a level maker could do. I know this as someone who made games for years across the different LBP games. The handheld versions were always far weaker then the console LBP games. I understand you don't want spinoff Sonic games stealing slots over the normal series...If you can call anything about the main series "Normal" these days even. But there's no real good reason for such a spinoff to go onto handhelds. Added to the fact if a Sonic Maker was on PC you could mod it even farther to get even more interesting results.

3 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

As rote and simple as Modern Sonic gameplay is, it takes a lot of time and effort to choreograph the level to hide its various foibles; putting a level creator in the hands of the average player can run the risk of exploiting that issue; and even assuming this were a level designer for a Classic Sonic type game, the sorts of level architecture you would need available is much more expansive than Mario's blocks.

A level creator for Sonic just isn't feasible.

I'd love to be proven wrong, but I don't see it as a practical ambition. Granted, neither is a character creator, but here we are.

I can easily make such architecture in any of the LBP games.

[Chris Knopps]

9 minutes ago, LongcrierCat said:

Everyone. No. Everyone. No. 

Never mind. Forget I said anything. See you later, Sonic Fandom. I can't stand this headache you're all giving me. 

3 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

As rote and simple as Modern Sonic gameplay is, it takes a lot of time and effort to choreograph the level to hide its various foibles; putting a level creator in the hands of the average player can run the risk of exploiting that issue; and even assuming this were a level designer for a Classic Sonic type game, the sorts of level architecture you would need available is much more expansive than Mario's blocks - a level creator for Sonic just isn't feasible.

I'd love to be proven wrong, but I don't see it as a practical ambition. Granted, neither is a character creator, but here we are.

The only way I could ever see a Sonic level creator working properly is if it's 2D and by the Whitehead folks or through some partnership with the team behind that Mario Maker game, under any other conditions I'd be highly, HIGHLY skeptical of the title working properly from a mechanic/physics perspective.

Keep it simple is my motto. Otherwise we'd likely go through an up-teen million updates to fix every other bug that pops up routinely.

[Nepenthe]

Well, I'd only really want a Sonic level maker for the Classic gameplay since I don't see any reason why you couldn't easily format it to a drag-and-drop style similar to Mario Maker, something which was really only on the Wii U exclusive for awhile by virtue of its dual screen capabilities for editing without having to switch screens, which is gone now as per the Switch. But a "make your own Boost level" game? I feel like the resources involved in making sure that doesn't break on you fast would only be worth so much insofar as it might help them to create boost games faster. But regardless, I REALLY have no desire for any of these kinds of spin-offs at this point in time, or at least, I don't even want to entertain these as gimmicks to keep throwing on top of basic Sonic games. Like, can we just... like...not even give Sega any ideas until they stop being a general disappointment?

I'm tired. ):

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Well, I'd only really want a Sonic level maker for the Classic gameplay since I don't see any reason why you couldn't easily format it to a drag-and-drop style similar to Mario Maker, something which was really only on the Wii U exclusive for awhile by virtue of its dual screen capabilities for editing without having to switch screens, which is gone now as per the Switch. But a "make your own Boost level" game? I feel like the resources involved in making sure that doesn't break on you fast would only be worth so much insofar as it might help them to create boost games faster. But regardless, I REALLY have no desire for any of these kinds of spin-offs at this point in time, or at least, I don't even want to entertain these as gimmicks to keep throwing on top of basic Sonic games. Like, can we just... like...not even give Sega any ideas until they stop being a general disappointment?

I'm tired. ):

Caffeine does wonders for the soul my friend.

As far as the disappointment thing... I dunno... Mania kind of gives them enough leeway to call them capable at the very least. It's a matter of which developers you're focusing on most. A hard view to generalize considering that.

 

[Lord-Dreamerz]

25 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

The only way I could ever see a Sonic level creator working properly is if it's 2D and by the Whitehead folks or through some partnership with the team behind that Mario Maker game, under any other conditions I'd be highly, HIGHLY skeptical of the title working properly from a mechanic/physics perspective.

Keep it simple is my motto. Otherwise we'd likely go through an up-teen million updates to fix every other bug that pops up routinely.

I'd prefer something more like LittleBigPlanet. Because Mario Maker is too limited.

3D gameplay levels are possible too.