Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Tani Coyote]

1 hour ago, JezMM said:

I really feel this line of conversation is becoming less and less relevant to Forces, a single player game.  All the examples given, be it real life baseball cards or PSO2 clothing, are cases where the random purchases have worth to doubles, in which you can trade unwanted items with other players for other items or currency.

My thoughts exactly.

This conversation has become more about the merits of microtransaction-based systems than Forces and really doesn't add much to the discussion. I think it's best the talk of microtransactions as is be shelved for this thread. If Forces does end up having microtransactions, the subject can logically come up again, but for now it doesn't seem to really add much.

1 hour ago, Kintor said:

Eh, this kind of 'gambling' has been going on for a lot longer than you think. Arguably this kind of 'micro-transaction' can be traced back to 1948 with the creation of the modern baseball card pack. I know that as child buying random boost packs of card games like Yu-Gi-Oh! never bothered me. That's probably why this micro-transaction approach to DLC doesn't bother me either, the internet has just expanded upon a physical business model that was already acceptable to both children and adults.

Having discussed with staff and in light of warnings given days ago in this very thread, I think you've earned a strike. No evidence has been given as to whether this is a good idea financially (while plenty were given as to why it is not) or ethically, while it is also not contributing much to discussion. If you're going to continually tell everyone how everything is going to be a-okay with this sort of thing, there needs to be numbers, not just an argument that everyone does it or that you're okay with it (obviously you are; the idea of a discussion is to convince people who are not okay with it why they should be). The good news is that a first strike doesn't (usually) carry any additional penalties, so there's still room for improvement that can eventually see the strike removed.

For now though, I think it's best to drop the microtransaction/gambling discussion and focus on things closer to what we've seen of the game rather than something really out there.

[Meta77]

54 minutes ago, Lord Liquir (Ogilvie) said:

My thoughts exactly.

This conversation has become more about the merits of microtransaction-based systems than Forces and really doesn't add much to the discussion. I think it's best the talk of microtransactions as is be shelved for this thread. If Forces does end up having microtransactions, the subject can logically come up again, but for now it doesn't seem to really add much.

Having discussed with staff and in light of warnings given days ago in this very thread, I think you've earned a strike. No evidence has been given as to whether this is a good idea financially (while plenty were given as to why it is not) or ethically, while it is also not contributing much to discussion. If you're going to continually tell everyone how everything is going to be a-okay with this sort of thing, there needs to be numbers, not just an argument that everyone does it or that you're okay with it (obviously you are; the idea of a discussion is to convince people who are not okay with it why they should be). The good news is that a first strike doesn't (usually) carry any additional penalties, so there's still room for improvement that can eventually see the strike removed.

For now though, I think it's best to drop the microtransaction/gambling discussion and focus on things closer to what we've seen of the game rather than something really out there.

What about dlc of levels actually has Sega ever supported q sonic game with dlc? Like really? Generations had a preorder level and lost world nights outside that it's like they say they will but never deliever

[Nepenthe]

Sonic Unleashed had extra DLC levels after launch, at least in the west. I think the stuff we got however was included natively in the Japanese version.

Spoiler

But this was when they still kinda gave a damn even though they still made weird-ass creative decisions so don't take it as precedent of anything.

 

[Blue Blood]

1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

What about dlc of levels actually has Sega ever supported q sonic game with dlc? Like really? Generations had a preorder level and lost world nights outside that it's like they say they will but never deliever

Unleashed had pretty sizeable DLC levels packs. Whilst it's very likely that these were in development before the game was even announced (some are based in unused areas of existing levels, others are present in leaked screenshots before SEGA revealed the game), Unleashed was already pretty large and far from lacking in content. The DLC packs are very reasonably priced. 

SEGA never promised to support any of their Sonic games with DLC post-release. Lost World received two free levels, which was great. The NiGHTS bonus stage was little more than a token, as it was just a watered down and reskinned boss rush. Nobody was really missing out of they didn't get to play it, but I agree that it would have been nice for it to be available to players who didn't get the first edition of the game. The trouble is that it's hardly worth any sum of money at all, and brings up the obvious conundrum of whether or not pre-order DLC is ever good practice. I'd say "no", and it would be especially unfriendly towards the consumer if Forces offered bonus customisation options just for pre-ordering. There's no good reason for such to be missing from the base game. At this stage however, that's only a wild guess. 

I could tolerate Forces including downloadable custom character options, but it would have to be cheap. Or, as JezMM has said, be bundled alongside content more worthy of my dollar. Forces really needs some sort of online capabilities that really capitalise in the custom characters though, otherwise what we'll be looking at all almost certainly be an ill-conceived understanding if why user-generated content is even popular at all. SEGA have a habit of poorly understanding why consumers like things when they try to cash-in in it themselves though, so I won't put it past them to screw this up royally. 

[Meta77]

Well seeing how this us a resistance why not a online mode for certain missions with different characters fighting towards one goal or teaming up for big boss fights

[Blue Blood]

5 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Well seeing how this us a resistance why not a online mode for certain missions with different characters fighting towards one goal or teaming up for big boss fights

Well, multiplayer and Sonic have been pulled off effectively. We have to wait and see how they pull it off this time, if they're even going to bother at all.

I kind of think it won't be there, or at least that it won't be much to look at even if it is. If the game was going to have a multiplayer focus, especially with the custom characters, don't you think they would have wanted to tell us that already?

[Meta77]

14 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Well, multiplayer and Sonic have been pulled off effectively. We have to wait and see how they pull it off this time, if they're even going to bother at all.

I kind of think it won't be there, or at least that it won't be much to look at even if it is. If the game was going to have a multiplayer focus, especially with the custom characters, don't you think they would have wanted to tell us that already?

Had this been 90s Sega I'd say yes but Sega if today half the time I have no idea what they are doing

[Blue Blood]

7 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Had this been 90s Sega I'd say yes but Sega if today half the time I have no idea what they are doing

They're always busy getting it wrong. 

[Sonikko]

Unleashed DLC was pretty good, but I have a feeling it was stuff cut from development and added back in later. I bought them all tho.

[Chris Knopps]

14 hours ago, JezMM said:

They probably wanted to just move on.  Generations was the anniversary thing and if they were supporting it with major content for like a year that's less time to spend on the next PROPER Sonic game.

Forces is a thing, so clearly they didn't.

Which turned out to essentially be a major DLC add-on for Generations with a Custom Character feature thrown in.

If they wanted to do all the crap they're doing in Forces they SHOULD have released DLC over the months/years for Generations to get this Classic and nostalgia nonsense out of their system.

Green Hill for Classic, Death Egg robots for Modern, the Egg Pawns all over the place again with a new coat of paint...

Had they spent these past few years releasing a stream of DLC for Generations while workin on the "Next Big Game" we might have seen more originality and/or creativity out of Forces.

[Sonikko]

18 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Forces is a thing, so clearly they didn't.

Which turned out to essentially be a major DLC add-on for Generations with a Custom Character feature thrown in.

If they wanted to do all the crap they're doing in Forces they SHOULD have released DLC over the months/years for Generations to get this Classic and nostalgia nonsense out of their system.

Green Hill for Classic, Death Egg robots for Modern, the Egg Pawns all over the place again with a new coat of paint...

Had they spent these past few years releasing a stream of DLC for Generations while workin on the "Next Big Game" we might have seen more originality and/or creativity out of Forces.

Maybe. Or they would've done just more of the same and it would've been so much worse because we would've been getting so much of it in the last few years.

I would've liked some Generations DLC but I think classic is here to stay until one of the games he appears in bombs.

[JezMM]

1 hour ago, Chris Knopps said:

Forces is a thing, so clearly they didn't.

Which turned out to essentially be a major DLC add-on for Generations with a Custom Character feature thrown in.

If they wanted to do all the crap they're doing in Forces they SHOULD have released DLC over the months/years for Generations to get this Classic and nostalgia nonsense out of their system.

Green Hill for Classic, Death Egg robots for Modern, the Egg Pawns all over the place again with a new coat of paint...

Had they spent these past few years releasing a stream of DLC for Generations while workin on the "Next Big Game" we might have seen more originality and/or creativity out of Forces.

The last sentence of your post is likely true, but that doesn't necessarily mean the first sentence is.  I'm saying they decided to move on then immediately backpedaled to safer ground as soon as that wasn't working out for them.

For better or worse, we'll find out when Forces releases, naturally.

[Kintor]

4 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

I could tolerate Forces including downloadable custom character options, but it would have to be cheap. Or, as JezMM has said, be bundled alongside content more worthy of my dollar. Forces really needs some sort of online capabilities that really capitalise in the custom characters though, otherwise what we'll be looking at all almost certainly be an ill-conceived understanding if why user-generated content is even popular at all. SEGA have a habit of poorly understanding why consumers like things when they try to cash-in in it themselves though, so I won't put it past them to screw this up royally. 

In this case, with perhaps the exception of the Switch, Sega can readily rely on the online infrastructure of each platform to help facilitate the sharing of user generations content (namely images of fan created OCs) across social media. The PS4 in particular stands out as being really useful in this regard; its operating system has built-in features that natively allow the capture of screen shots and even the recording of footage, that can then quickly be shared to linked social media accounts. Which is a fact that Sega is no doubt well aware as they began work on the character creator. It's easier than ever to share content online, the initial Custom Hero trailer going viral is just a taste of how far Sonic Forces is going to spread across the internet thanks to these OCs.

[Blue Blood]

1 hour ago, Kintor said:

In this case, with perhaps the exception of the Switch, Sega can readily rely on the online infrastructure of each platform to help facilitate the sharing of user generations content (namely images of fan created OCs) across social media. The PS4 in particular stands out as being really useful in this regard; its operating system has built-in features that natively allow the capture of screen shots and even the recording of footage, that can then quickly be shared to linked social media accounts. Which is a fact that Sega is no doubt well aware as they began work on the character creator. It's easier than ever to share content online, the initial Custom Hero trailer going viral is just a taste of how far Sonic Forces is going to spread across the internet thanks to these OCs.

SEGA needs to actually do something. Simply having access to a simple share function for screenshots and videos isn't enough to make the game stand out when every other game has the exact same capabilities. The most successful user-generated content can be found in games like Minecraft, Mario Maker and MMOs when the content concerns characters. Players like to be able to represent themselves through their content. Forces, so far at least, hasn't shown is that that is going to be possible. This is again why I think that SEGA are missing the mark. 

The "Custom Hero" trailer isn't anything too remarkable just yet. When the lid was finally lifted on Sonic Boom, it too went viral and trended globally on Twitter. We know all too well how that turned out though... I don't doubt that some people are going to be swayed towards this game because of the characters creation system and its got people talking. But once again, you are sorely overstating everything.

Have you ever taken a moment to step back and be critical? Just to say "hmm, I wonder if there might be any issues with this" or "well it's a good start, but let's not get carried away here".

[Solly]

20 minutes ago, Kintor said:

In this case, with perhaps the exception of the Switch, Sega can readily rely on the online infrastructure of each platform to help facilitate the sharing of user generations content (namely images of fan created OCs) across social media. The PS4 in particular stands out as being really useful in this regard; its operating system has built-in features that natively allow the capture of screen shots and even the recording of footage, that can then quickly be shared to linked social media accounts. Which is a fact that Sega is no doubt well aware as they began work on the character creator. It's easier than ever to share content online, the initial Custom Hero trailer going viral is just a taste of how far Sonic Forces is going to spread across the internet thanks to these OCs.

(Xbox One lets you do it too)

Sharing your characters will be possible on any system. The question is, will SEGA implement something to actually make people care?

[Chris Knopps]

20 minutes ago, Solly said:

(Xbox One lets you do it too)

Sharing your characters will be possible on any system. The question is, will SEGA implement something to actually make people care?

No.

They rarely do this when randomly doing new things for the sake of satiating what's likely their own boredom with these back-to-back Sonic projects.

Want to make a new NiGHTS game?

Lost World

Want to make a new Ristar?

Unleashed

That's the vibe I got from those games anyways.

When you've worked on the same thing for some 10-20 years and half way down that line was told "MAKE ONLY SONIC!!" reducing the later half of your career to a spiky blue animal that runs around, you're going to go mad enough to do whatever it takes to keep your own interest piqued.

[Kintor]

2 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

SEGA needs to actually do something. Simply having access to a simple share function for screenshots and videos isn't enough to make the game stand out when every other game has the exact same capabilities. The most successful user-generated content can be found in games like Minecraft, Mario Maker and MMOs when the content concerns characters. Players like to be able to represent themselves through their content. Forces, so far at least, hasn't shown is that that is going to be possible. This is again why I think that SEGA are missing the mark. 

The "Custom Hero" trailer isn't anything too remarkable just yet. When the lid was finally lifted on Sonic Boom, it too went viral and trended globally on Twitter. We know all too well how that turned out though... I don't doubt that some people are going to be swayed towards this game because of the characters creation system and its got people talking. But once again, you are sorely overstating everything.

Have you ever taken a moment to step back and be critical? Just to say "hmm, I wonder if there might be any issues with this" or "well it's a good start, but let's not get carried away here".

Sega doesn't need to create any extra online functions when consoles like the PS4 already offer greater native support for social media then any possible third-party solution. To that end, Sonic Forces is going to do extremely well thanks to social media. Things like Minecraft went viral because it tapped into existing creative interests, given that Minecraft is in many way s digital Lego. In turn Sonic Forces works on the same principle, it's not establishing a new interest but rather tapping into the creative energies of the Sonic Fanbase that already constantly produces an endless amount of Sonic OC fan art. This means that Sonic Forces has gone viral for the right reasons.

2 hours ago, Solly said:

(Xbox One lets you do it too)

Sharing your characters will be possible on any system. The question is, will SEGA implement something to actually make people care?

There's more to successful sharing on social media then simply the ability to take a screenshot. The usual problem with the Switch is that Nintendo's idea of network infrastructure lags behind industry standards. The integrated social media functionality of the PS4 especially gives that version of Sonic Forces greater appeal compared to the Switch version. Because in this console generation its not just graphics that set the competition apart.

[Chris Knopps]

19 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Sega doesn't need to create sny extra online functions when consoles like the PS4 already offer greater native support for social media then any possible third-party solution. To that, Sonic Forces is going to do extremely well thanks to a ocial media. Things like Minecraft went viral because it tapped into existing  creative interests, given that Minecraft is in many way  digital Lego. In turn Sonic Forces works on the same principle, it's not establishing a nee interest but rather tapping into the  creative energies of the Sonic Fanbase that already constantly produces an endless amount of Sonic OC fan art. This means that Sonic Forces has gone viral for the right reasons.

There's more to successful sharing on social media then simply the ability to take a screenshot. The usual problem with the Switch is that Nintendo's idea of network infrastructure lags behind industry standards. The integrated social media functionality of the PS4 especially gives that version of Sonic Forces greater appeal compared to the Switch version. Because in this console generation its not just graphics that set the competition apart.

...Doesn't the Switch have that same integration this time around?

Or something pretty much along those lines. Plus if I'm not mistaken more features are likely down the road, potentially recordings eventually.

I dunno... I do think bringing up the whole "This Console vs That Console" debate/topic is kind of overused already in this thread.

[The Deleter]

The only way to upload a screenshot from the Switch is by linking your facebook or twitter accounts, yeah

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, The Deleter said:

The only way to upload a screenshot from the Switch is by linking your facebook or twitter accounts, yeah

I'd consider this temporary until more features come down the road to further integrate the console with the internet ala recordings for YouTube and such.

Priorities are in different directions at the moment but the online/social focus is down the road. Once more is added I doubt the Switch will be too different from other consoles with, currently, more involved internet aspects.

[Solly]

20 minutes ago, Kintor said:

There's more to successful sharing on social media then simply the ability to take a screenshot. The usual problem with the Switch is that Nintendo's idea of network infrastructure lags behind industry standards. The integrated social media functionality of the PS4 especially gives that version of Sonic Forces greater appeal compared to the Switch version. Because in this console generation its not just graphics that set the competition apart.

What is it, exactly, that makes sharing on the PS4 so much better for this? I'm actually really curious. You said the PS4 stands out for being able to record screenshots and share to social media, and heavily implied that the Switch couldn't. I said it can. Now you're rambling about Nintendo's idea of network infrastructure. Do you actually have a serious, practical reason as to why this is going to be inferior on Switch, or are you just making another weak jab at Nintendo again because reasons?

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

...Doesn't the Switch have that same integration this time around?

Or something pretty much along those lines. Plus if I'm not mistaken more features are likely down the road, potentially recordings eventually.

I dunno... I do think bringing up the whole "This Console vs That Console" debate/topic is kind of overused already in this thread.

You're right, it does. You can link your Switch with social media accounts and post your screenshots to them.

Discussion is pointless to begin with, though. People probably aren't going to be interested in each other's OC's. 

[Shadowlax]

22 minutes ago, Solly said:

 

Discussion is pointless to begin with, though. People probably aren't going to be interested in each other's OC's. 

Or they might, there seems to be some draw in that with things like Xenoverse or mmos. But those are usually on like forums dedicated to such things, though sonic like DBZ might be more on the social media forefront than say or average mmo, so there might be some value in something like that. 

[Kintor]

25 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

I'd consider this temporary until more features come down the road to further integrate the console with the internet ala recordings for YouTube and such.

Priorities are in different directions at the moment but the online/social focus is down the road. Once more is added I doubt the Switch will be too different from other consoles with, currently, more involved internet aspects.

The fact that Nintendo is still looking to get these social media features implemented is the lagging problem I'm referring to. This kind of basic online functionality should've been taken carebof before launch. As it stands there's no garuntee that the Switch will be up to o standard by the time that Sonic Forces is released.

21 minutes ago, Solly said:

Discussion is pointless to begin with, though. People probably aren't going to be interested in each other's OC's. 

On the contrary, getting people to talk about their Sonic Forces OCs online via social  media is pretty much the whole point of the character creator. There's already considerable precedent for this in the way the Sonic fans are have always been eager to talk about their OC fan art online. This character creator just makes whole conversation bigger snd louder, by enabling people who can't draw to mske OCs as well.

[The Deleter]

Yeah, of all things, sharing OCs seems like the more likely event occurring. I mean that's the way it has worked with other character creator editors, even if it's just down to naming Link "Poopybutt". Can't see it being any different for Sonic this time around.

Now the real question is... whether it is used for good... or evil... :V

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Kintor said:

The fact that Nintendo is still looking to get these social media features implemented is the lagging problem I'm referring to. This kind of basic online functionality should've been taken carebof before launch. As it stands there's no garuntee that the Switch will be up to o standard by the time that Sonic Forces is released.

On the contrary, getting people to talk about their Sonic Forces OCs online via docisl media is pretty much the whole point of the character creator. There's already considerable precedent for this in the way the Sonic fans are have always been eager to talk about their OC fan art online. This character creator just makes whole conversation bigger snd louder, by enabling people who can't draw to mske OCs as well.

Kintor, log off, you're drunk.

But being serious, I do think there will be more to the social media aspect of things revolving the Switch by the time the holidays roll out. I doubt they'd add capture functionality unless they intended to go into detail with it at some point later on. When they play their cards right and have their ducks in a row Nintendo really does know their thing, and judging on the Switch thus far I'd say they're back in line.

So... I'm not concerned. Though in all honesty I highly doubt the OC thing is going to be huge enough for folks to want to go all out and shove their character every which way on the internet. Diehard folks will ala DeviantArt blokes but beyond them...

Meh...

I think the ability to do speed runs and record them via the console itself will be the bigger thing. And even if the Switch hasn't gotten that far by the launch of Forces, that's what those capture things are for YouTuber's use on things like older consoles and handhelds.