Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[SonicFreak94]

Modern Sonic better be full 3d this time. What's the pint of making him 2.5D when we already have mania and classic Sonic?

[TheLaw34]

Just now, reflection_of said:

Modern Sonic better be full 3d this time. What's the pint of making him 2.5D when we already have mania and classic Sonic?

Because modern 2d is totally different from classic 2d and 2d gameplay is fun whether it's in a classic game or a new one. what's the point of giving sonic springs if he already had them in sonic generations?

[SonicFreak94]

2 minutes ago, TheLaw34 said:

Because modern 2d is totally different from classic 2d and 2d gameplay is fun whether it's in a classic game or a new one. what's the point of giving sonic springs if he already had them in sonic generations?

2 minutes ago, TheLaw34 said:

 

Except this is not fair to people who want a full 3d Sonic game. Sonic mania and classic Sonic are already full 2d. It would be unfair if the 2d fans get 80% of modern sonic as well. Especially since there has not been a full 3d Sonic game since 06.

[TheLaw34]

26 minutes ago, reflection_of said:

 

I don't think being "fair" is on the top of their list of priorities and even if it were there is nothing unfair about them making the game of their choosing and saying you don't have to buy it. Did you pay them in advance and for a fully 3d sonic game? No, so there is nothing unfair about it.

people liked the 2d in modern sonic and so they are not taking it out. Whether or not a small portion of their audience wants a full 3d game is not going to make them spending millions of dollars for a game just for them instead sticking with the formula that people have been praising and begging them to return to.

[Diogenes]

I don't think people have been praising the boost games because their 2D gameplay is just so good. Personally I think it's been pretty weak (not that I have a great opinion of its 3D portions either, to be fair), and I think there is definitely a significant demand for more 3D gameplay, not just a "small portion" asking for it.

[TheLaw34]

8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I don't think people have been praising the boost games because their 2D gameplay is just so good. Personally I think it's been pretty weak (not that I have a great opinion of its 3D portions either, to be fair), and I think there is definitely a significant demand for more 3D gameplay, not just a "small portion" asking for it.

If they take it out because 25% hate it they will be disappointing the 75% who want it. I would be all up for less 2d but removing it totally because a minority really hates it seems idiotic.

 

[SonicFreak94]

2 minutes ago, TheLaw34 said:

If they take it out because 25% hate it they will be disappointing the 75% who want it. I would be all up for less 2d but removing it totally because a minority really hate it seems idiotic.

 

Actually most people seem to want full 3d gameplay at this point since we have had a 2d marathon for the past decade. Besides, anything that can be done in 2d in theory can be done better in 3d.

[Diogenes]

The game's most likely at least half 2D due to Classic Sonic already. It's hardly an unreasonable imposition on fans of 2D gameplay to have Modern Sonic play entirely in 3D. And I really don't have much faith in the numbers you're throwing up here.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Where are those percentages coming from?

[StaticMania]

Just now, reflection_of said:

Besides, anything that can be done in 2d in theory can be done better in 3d.

Well that's just not true...both dimensions have their own advantages and disadvantages for level design.

[SonicFreak94]

 

2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Well that's just not true...both dimensions have their own advantages and disadvantages for level design.

This is false. Any 2d design can be improved by being translated into a 3d corridor.

[TheLaw34]

6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

The game's most likely at least half 2D due to Classic Sonic already. It's hardly an unreasonable imposition on fans of 2D gameplay to have Modern Sonic play entirely in 3D. And I really don't have much faith in the numbers you're throwing up here.

I don't have faith in them either but you are missing the point, whether it's 25% or 40%% playing modern sonic in 2d is not the same as playing classic and totally removing it because some of your audience don't like it is silly

Just now, reflection_of said:

This is false. Any 2d design can be improved by being translated into a 3d corridor.

No, it can't, there is nothing to back up that statement. Is this supposed to be a joke?

[StaticMania]

Just now, reflection_of said:

 

This is false. Any 2d design can be improved by being translated into a 3d corridor.

This is an opinion you are having. Obviously your preference is 3D, your preference isn't fact.

[SonicFreak94]

@TheLaw34 It is no joke, by translating a 2d design into a 3d corridor you improve the following:

1. The emersion,

2. The sense of speed,

3. The field of vision.

So with the same exact level design in a 3d corridor you can go faster yet react better to sudden dangers in the level since you can actually see things far ahead of Sonic. The game also becomes more emersive since you are now an active participant in the level instead of a distant observer of a 2d plane. 

This is just my opinion though so I don't expect everyone to agree. But I think enough people would to warrant at least half of project 2017 be 3d.

We already know that both Mania and Fire and Ice will be 100% 2d so why is it so radical for project 2017 to be at least 50% 3d?

Is that really too much to ask?

 

[TheLaw34]

6 minutes ago, reflection_of said:

@TheLaw34 It is no joke, by translating a 2d design into a 3d corridor you improve IMO

1. The emersion,

2. The sense of speed,

3. The field of vision,  

So with the same exact level design in a 3d corridor you can go faster yet react better to sudden dangers in the level since you can actually see things far ahead of Sonic. The game also becomes more emersive since you are now an active participant in the level instead of a distant observer of a 2d plane. 

This is just my opinion though so I don't expect everyone to agree. But I think enough people would to warrant at least half of project 2017 be 3d. Is that really too much to ask?

You saying the 2d games don['t have any advantages is not an opinion it's just wrong

We know nothing about this game, even if classic sonic is still totally 2d we don't know if modern sonic will not have more/longer levels which would keep the balance of 2d and 3d. Additionally it's not just 2d/3d. It's classic 2d/modern 2d/modern 3d. If they remove the 2d segments the people who like them have nothing. having classic 2d is not just going to make the people who liked modern 2d happy. 

 

 

[SonicFreak94]

6 minutes ago, TheLaw34 said:

We know nothing about this game, even if classic sonic is still totally 2d we don't know if modern sonic will not have more/longer levels which would keep the balance of 2d and 3d. Additionally it's not just 2d/3d. It's classic 2d/modern 2d/modern 3d. If they removing the 3d segments the people who like them have nothing. having classic 2d is not just going to make the people who liked modern 3d happy. 

 

Why don't you explain to me the supposed advantages 2d level design has in a Sonic game.

[StaticMania]

Just now, reflection_of said:

1. The emersion,

2. The sense of speed,

3. The field of vision.

None of this improves the actual level design.

[TheLaw34]

 

1 minute ago, reflection_of said:

What? What are you even trying to say?

Woops. I typed 3d instead of 2d. I edited it.

[Diogenes]

23 minutes ago, reflection_of said:

This is false. Any 2d design can be improved by being translated into a 3d corridor.

This is just nonsense, and no, you don't get to back this up by saying it's your opinion. Camera issues alone are enough to prove this wrong.

22 minutes ago, TheLaw34 said:

I don't have faith in them either but you are missing the point, whether it's 25% or 40%% playing modern sonic in 2d is not the same as playing classic and totally removing it because some of your audience don't like it is silly

You don't make good games by throwing together everything that anyone wants to see. "Not enough people like this" is absolutely a valid reason for them to stop doing something.

[PickleBrows]

It's a big assumption that those who 'like' Modern 2D would immediately be upset or 'disappointed' if it was removed. I'm sure there's at least a fair amount of people in the 'like camp' that probably wouldn't really notice or care if those sections were missing. At most they'd maybe go, "Huh, it's not doing that camera switch thing like before" and then never mention it again.

Having both Classic and Modern feature in 2D sections is actually a little counter-intuitive, from a design standpoint, for players outside of fans who would know what to expect. Both versions of Sonic are very different in how their basic movement on the ground and in the air works. Generations had you switching Sonics regularly and I can imagine some players found themselves messing up platforming now and then because they had gotten used to the movement of the Sonic they were playing a few minutes ago and were now under or overcompensating in trying to get a handle on this other Sonic.

Putting Classic in 2D makes sense because that's what he's known for. That's not to say he couldn't be brought into 3D but if they're going to put side-scrolling in there then it at least makes sense for him. 

What is Modern bringing to the 2D gameplay that really makes it his own and separate from Classic outside of being inherently faster? Going back to Generations, the entire concept of having these two Sonics together is to highlight their differences and make use of them to make two gameplay styles which, at their core, are both built around the concept of speedy platforming but realise that concept in two rather different ways. Playing Generations, I went through a 2D level of Green Hill as Classic a few minutes ago, why am I now spending significant chunks of what's meant to be a different experience doing it again except faster and with a homing attack?

Modern Sonic (in this case I mean Sonic from the Dreamcast onwards) was a product of the transition to 3D gameplay. He's been many things over the years but he'll always be the face 3D gameplay. Unleashed brought in 2D in the first place to try and evoke the Classic gameplay (which really only meant the 2D perspective, not gameplay). Well, now we actually have Classic back. We don't need "homages" to the days of old when they've literally got him right there doing what he does best.

If Sonic 2017 does take the "Generations with new story and levels approach" (which I don't think it'll do) then they should have both Sonics playing to their own strengths. Modern's already sharing the spotlight with Classic enough as it is in 2017 without having to play more like his younger self when he finally does get a minute to himself.

 

[TheLaw34]

Just now, Diogenes said:

 "Not enough people like this" is absolutely a valid reason for them to stop doing something.

My point exactly. because a portion of your audience thinks that the game should not have an ounce of modern 2d doesn't mean you get rid of it completely and lose all the good things it had to offer.

[Scar]

I think Sonic Team should design modern sonic to utilise 3D space more simply for its own sake, rather than to be "fair" on 3D fans. It seems that since 2006, Sonic Team or SEGA or someone has been too afraid to design a game that functions completely in 3D. Whether thats out of fear of being critically panned or if they simply lack the confidence to pull the trigger (these points may be linked).

A big problem that's emerging is this strange habit of revising history. Sonic games have been mediocre for so long that now its apparently OK to suggest that Sonic games (including the classics) were never good to begin with, which is nonsense as far as I'm concerned. But to me it signals a bigger problem. I feel like somewhere the mentality at SEGA is to strive to be "good enough" or simply "not terrible". I want to see them striving for excellence again. Not just within the context of Sonic games, but games in general. Because if Sonic continues on the path of mediocrity out of some ridiculous fear or rejection, then the franchise's good will, will run out and not even the classics will be safe. 

To get out of this rut Sonic Team need to put everything they have into making a 3D game. Tell the naysayers to go suck a duck and prove them wrong with an excellent game. Instead of using classic sonic and strange gimmicks as crutches, they need to go back and re-examine what made the franchise great to begin with and start with the very basics. You can't make a 3D game that behaves exactly like the classics, but you can look at the core principles (what the core principles are have been discussed to death on this board) and apply them to a 3D space. The end result will not be a 1:1 mapping of 2D sonic into 3D, but it should capture the essence of it. Once you've got that, you need to design a game that is fun and has no technical issues. Alternate characters can simply be modified Sonic's - if people don't like them, fuck them. If you make their gameplay fun and write them properly, they can't really complain about their inclusion.

(I have no idea if this rant makes a cohesive point - I hope it does)

Just now, reflection_of said:

@TheLaw34 It is no joke, by translating a 2d design into a 3d corridor you improve IMO

1. The emersion,

2. The sense of speed,

3. The field of vision,  

So with the same exact level design in a 3d corridor you can go faster yet react better to sudden dangers in the level since you can actually see things far ahead of Sonic. The game also becomes more emersive since you are now an active participant in the level instead of a distant observer of a 2d plane. 

This is just my opinion though so I don't expect everyone to agree. But I think enough people would to warrant at least half of project 2017 be 3d. Is that really too much to ask?

I uh....no. That's now how things work. 

The point you bring up about "field of vision" shows a distinct lack of understanding of how game design (both in 3D and 2D) actually works. For one, you can't see through walls in 3D, but you sort of can in a 2D game. The type of experience you create changes completely depending on whether you design it to be a 2D sidescroller or a 3D game.

Its one thing to say that you prefer 3D games to 2D ones, its an entirely different (and ultimately completely incorrect) assertion when you suggest that any 2D game will automatically be better if in 3D. Game design is much, much more complicated than that.

As for Sonic 2017 itself. Yeah I would want the Modern gameplay to be mostly 3D too.

[TheLaw34]

6 minutes ago, Scar said:

I think Sonic Team should design modern sonic to utilise 3D space more simply for its own sake, rather than to be "fair" on 3D fans. It seems that since 2006, Sonic Team or SEGA or someone has been too afraid to design a game that functions completely in 3D. Whether thats out of fear of being critically panned or if they simply lack the confidence to pull the trigger (these points may be linked).

put everything they have into making a 3D game. Tell the naysayers to go suck a duck and prove them wrong with an excellent game.

I don't think that proving a point that 3d is good is a good reason to totally remove 2d you can be totally confident that the 3d is great but still have good ideas for 2d segments and not let those go to waste.

[Scar]

1 minute ago, TheLaw34 said:

I don't think that proving a point that 3d is good is a good reason to totally remove 3d you can be totally confident that the 3d is great but still have good ideas for 2d segments and not let those go to waste.

When you're in 3D you can absolutely introduce areas or set-pieces that require controlling Sonic in "2D", but I don't think that should encompass any more than 5% of total gameplay and definitely think that they should NOT lock Sonic onto a 2D plane.

What I mean by this is, Sonic should at all times be controllable in 3D with 360° movement. However if there are areas within a level that require say wall jumping or whatever you should be able to rotate the camera so that it facilitates a "2D" viewpoint, with controls that are tight enough to enable effective movement along that plane. However that is the extent of how 2D a 3D Sonic game should become. Like I said before, the games should absolutely not lock Sonic onto a rail and lock the camera into a 2D viewpoint. That seems like lazy game design to me.

 

[TheLaw34]

13 minutes ago, Scar said:

When you're in 3D you can absolutely introduce areas or set-pieces that require controlling Sonic in "2D", but I don't think that should encompass any more than 5% of total gameplay and definitely think that they should NOT lock Sonic onto a 2D plane.

What I mean by this is, Sonic should at all times be controllable in 3D with 360° movement. However if there are areas within a level that require say wall jumping or whatever you should be able to rotate the camera so that it facilitates a "2D" viewpoint, with controls that are tight enough to enable effective movement along that plane. However that is the extent of how 2D a 3D Sonic game should become. Like I said before, the games should absolutely not lock Sonic onto a rail and lock the camera into a 2D viewpoint. That seems like lazy game design to me.

 

How is using a system that works lazy? are 2d games suddenly an easy cop out that only lazy developers do? What's wrong with automatically adjusting the camera to keep flow and great transitions instead of making the player do it? There is nothing lazy about 2d segments unless the developer decides to not try to make a good level which they can just as easily do in 3d.